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Rules proposal - 3.4.2 - For 2008 REV 4/03/07

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rwracer

Re: Rules proposal - 3.4.2 - For 2008
« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2007, 01:48:25 pm »
I think I have it covered, so I'll elaborate.

Grids would be based on point standings, not points.  So, were talking first, second, third in a region, not who's got the most points.  Similar to ROC.  Champions first, first loosers second, etc.




It always comes down to points Dave.  How else do you differentiate between two Second Places from different regions?  My guess would be points right?

So yes, you're right in that Points Standings could offer some level of insulation, but then again it all goes away when you fall back to points to differentiate two (or three or four or more) riders with the same standings.

Not saying its a bad thing, just something to consider, it could be that no one really cares.

And for those of you clapping at the "new idea", as Arnie already pointed out... old idea, latest incarnation.  And it all gets swept away if you don't make a convincing case to CCS and they actually implement it.  If it doesn't get implemented it doesn't matter how good it is.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2007, 01:55:37 pm by kwracer »
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Super Dave

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Re: Rules proposal - 3.4.2 - For 2008
« Reply #25 on: April 03, 2007, 02:07:17 pm »
Actually, points still don't have to differentiate.  This isn't a rule, so if you have an idea for changing that, you could add to the thread.  I've talked about the idea for years and years, but I've never submitted a proposal on this topic.  Generally, I've always had too much happening late in the year to develop the idea.  Well, I've got a little space to look at it, and more racers are active on the forum this time of year.

Therefore, differentiation in regional positions could be done by performance index.  One could also grid intially by "hosting" region first, then by performance index.

Example.  MAM in May is a combined Great Plains and Midwest region event.  It is put on by the TrackAddix folks which operates the Great Plains region.  As it is "their" event, why not allow the "host" region to have their people at the front.

WERA operates their sportsman series with with pre entered riders by points, then post entered riders. 

Their differentiation of riders with the same regional position is to let the computer randomly select who goes where, not by points or anything else.  Honestly, I don't think this makes or breaks the concept, but does ask for some refinement because it has the possibility of being implemented, it needs to be covered.
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Super Dave

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rwracer

Re: Rules proposal - 3.4.2 - For 2008
« Reply #26 on: April 03, 2007, 02:21:17 pm »

Therefore, differentiation in regional positions could be done by performance index.  One could also grid intially by "hosting" region first, then by performance index.



Exactly, so the problem becomes how many layers of anti-biasing is enough?  Do we put it to a vote?  That doesn't often work well.  I'd love to say I have the answer but I don't know that one person does.

I think ultimately someone has to make a decision and then make the rule and then either happily or begrudgingly everyone will follow it.

For me I think anything over straight entry order is an improvement.  And I do like the idea of including stats into the calculation because it's relatively easy to implement and still has at least some degree of objectiveness.

Maybe giving deference to the host region riders is the best approach but does than mean that riders will travel to other regions less?  I don't know.

As imperfect as it is, Wera's approach seems to be supported by the majority of riders so maybe simpler is better.

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Super Dave

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Re: Rules proposal - 3.4.2 - For 2008
« Reply #27 on: April 03, 2007, 02:29:45 pm »
Well, I think, ultimately, it's in Kevin Elliott's lap.  And that's a good thing.  Benevolence eliminates some whining.  But I don't expect anything to be implemented without some reasonable discussion of its merits.
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Super Dave

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Super Dave

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Re: Rules proposal - 3.4.2 - For 2008 REV 4/03/07
« Reply #28 on: April 03, 2007, 02:50:56 pm »
I've made a second version of the proposal at my first post, and I've labeled it MkII.

It is similar to the first one.  A couple things that I changed:

I have left the first region event to have grids based on entry alone.  I think it's reasonable to allow CCS to have the opportunity to have those early entries.  Even I can usually find some money or some credit cards to do my first event entry. 

But I changed the wording so that each region's opener is specifically gridded by preentry.  The problem I saw was that potentially, a rider could race in a region that starts before another and have a standing in points that one region does not have.  I would prefer to favor the host riders to have an opportunity to be gridded on reasonable footing with the pre entry grid at that point.

Next, I changed the wording to allow for the host region riders to occupy the first position in the grid list and the next regions' riders to be gridded at "random".  So, if it's a MW race, the Midwest guy would get the first spot among the "leaders" positions, first spot among the guys in second, etc.  I do believe that CCS differentiates tracks as regionally specific.  This would serve to be a guide to what the host region would be.
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Super Dave

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Team_Serpent

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Re: Rules proposal - 3.4.2 - For 2008 REV 4/03/07
« Reply #29 on: April 03, 2007, 03:33:34 pm »

As imperfect as it is, Wera's approach seems to be supported by the majority of riders so maybe simpler is better.


If that's the case then I believe WERA grids by points for that region and if you are coming from another region and have no points in the regional event you wish to race then you are grid by order of entry behind all other competitors that have earned points in that region.

In combined regional events I believe they grid as I described above - points leaders from each region get first grid spots by random computer selection and so on down the line.

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Super Dave

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Re: Rules proposal - 3.4.2 - For 2008 REV 4/03/07
« Reply #30 on: April 03, 2007, 03:40:49 pm »
+1

I read WERA rules just a little bit ago.  My proposal would be similar to their rules, but would allow for first event pre entries for grid.  Yes, that is very different from WERA.  I didn't do it to be different, but I felt that it is important to influx CCS with some money early in the year.  That's my feeling as a racer, that there needs to be some support of a business that one frequents.
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SloKidd

Re: Rules proposal - 3.4.2 - For 2008 REV 4/03/07
« Reply #31 on: April 03, 2007, 06:30:47 pm »
+1

I like the revised oprposal.    :thumb:
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Ducmarc

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Re: Rules proposal - 3.4.2 - For 2008 REV 4/03/07
« Reply #32 on: May 05, 2007, 10:09:54 pm »
I'm still a fan of qualifying and I think my latest injury was somewhat caused by starting on the last row and then trying to catch the leaders in the 1st couple of laps.  I believe your proprosal would equalize everybody as to where you grid after the 1st couple of races. If you're only good for 10th in that class after 2 or 3 races, you'll be 10th anyways.  Maybe this proposal would stop the professional cherry pickers from showing up every now and then and picking up factory money. Since I normally race every race in the season, this would help me, especially towards the end where it really counts.
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jryer

Re: Rules proposal - 3.4.2 - For 2008 REV 4/03/07
« Reply #33 on: May 15, 2007, 06:51:56 pm »
I'm still a fan of qualifying and I think my latest injury was somewhat caused by starting on the last row and then trying to catch the leaders in the 1st couple of laps.  I believe your proprosal would equalize everybody as to where you grid after the 1st couple of races. If you're only good for 10th in that class after 2 or 3 races, you'll be 10th anyways.  Maybe this proposal would stop the professional cherry pickers from showing up every now and then and picking up factory money. Since I normally race every race in the season, this would help me, especially towards the end where it really counts.

I too am in favor of qualifying for various reasons I've already stated before, but admit that points would be an improvement over what we have now.
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Garywc

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Re: Rules proposal - 3.4.2 - For 2008 REV 4/03/07
« Reply #34 on: May 15, 2007, 07:58:36 pm »
By points would be a good way to do it.
qualifying would take too much time. it works for the ASRA races because there are only a few races and at certain events.
as far as someone mentioned using practice for qualifying that wouldn't be good either because its practice . it may be the first time someone was on the track and needs to figure out lines and gearing and might not be able to run to there best ability.
also about the having points in another region shouldn't be it should be for the region your racing in. so if you get points in Daytona you will have points in every region then every double points weekend will give you points in some other regions
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