New Guy Introduction + ?'s

[PolishPete]

Hello to all here....I'm currently looking into racing very seriously....taking the Learning Curves next spring!!  So over the winter I'll be here learning as much as I can and asking tons of questions.  Looking to start on on an SV...I currently ride an R6, but I don't feel I can ride that bike to its full potential on the track as I'm going to be a total rookie to racing, so for safety I'd like to learn on the SV.  Anybody have any opinions on what's best to begin on??  I was at BHF the other weekend and you guys are nuts.  I want to be out there really bad!!  What a blast.  AMA at Road America was an awesome weekend too...I'd like to take the Learning Curves there, that's a cool track.  So anybody have any tips I should know about or things I should look into to learn about??  Thanks in advance...


P.S...that no Polish people on the pit bikes...funny stuff   ;D

[Super Dave]

Introductory schooling should be look as that:  introductory schooling.  Most often, it is a simple program that gives you information to know communications, etiquitte, and some learning of some very basic sensory overloading.


Having been involved in this for a long time and lots of levels with lots of riders and myself, this is a terribly intimidating sport with emotional and financial reprocussions.  


On of the biggest pit falls is a lack of riders knowledge.  Not so much in knowing how to ride, but how to recognize the difference between needing to ride better and knowing how a motorcycle works to create a chassis that offers feedback and confidence to actually execute.  


Because of that, most racers only stay involved actively for about two to three years.  That further corrupts the program where new riders will often socialize and work with riders with pretty much the same lack of real experience.


The SV as a racing motorcycle is an outstanding choice.  It's reasonably reliable and it is very, very common as a production race bike.  That allows you to go to your track friends and get parts you need when you fall down over the race weekend to keep going.  


Old race SV's are available.  However, a bike is not just a sum of it's parts;  it should be a sum of the set-up and attention that someone gave to it.  A bike can have all the "good parts" but still handle like a bucket of dung because the person trying to execute didn't know anything about sag, spring rate, trail, etc.

That get you started?

[PolishPete]

Awesome...thanks...keep it coming.

[251am]

 Where're you from and is your real name Dan?



 Money. Save your money and buy all the instructional books. Read, study, and read some more. Get good at making track diagrams. SV's good choice I hear. Start doing track days NOW.

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

Welcome to CCS! :)

     When I started into this I took the Learning Curves licensing school in late '95 and got my graduation certificate. My intent was to start racing at the 1st event in '96, when everyone would be slower from their winter hibernation, and follow the entire season. Since the licensing certificate is good for 12 months this was the route I took so I would have that out of the way for that 1st event in '96. The mistake I made was pre-entering for my 1st event ever and ending up on the front row, man was that a reality check! Something you have to realize is that there are people who are multi-year Amateur licensed racers that you will be racing with, they will most likely run away from you in your 1st race like your using training wheels. That can be quite an experience to a new racer when almost the entire pack comes blowing by you on the start going into turn 1.

     The advice I can offer you, and what I did after my 1st event, is to get gridded at the back of the pack for at least the 1st several events. This will allow you to concentrate on your racing and not 'just trying to survive' when in the midsts of the fast guys at the front. Another great advantage to this is that you will get to work on developing your passing ability, which is something many lack ability in. If you start at the front you'll only be getting use to everyone passing you. I spent my entire 1st season intentionally starting from the back of the grid and working my way as far up to the front as I could during the race. Starting with season 2 I then pre-entered every race to get a good starting position so as to be able to fight for the top 5 positions. Learn to walk before you try and run!

     Some more advice is to race using cash! Did you know that the average length of involvement in this sport is only 2-3 seasons? The main reasons are due to money, injury, or some change in your life (like getting married or having children). By far money is the major issue, it's what caused me to have to take 2 seasons off just to get my head back above water. I still have a substantial amount of debt left over from my racing in the late 90's and it's a burden that I wish I didn't have. After I returned to racing I promised myself to race only if I had the cash to do so, this way at the end of each season I don't owe a dime from racing that year, what a great feeling! I suggest getting a seperate checking account with a checkcard that will be used EXCLUSIVELY for racing expenses and begin a weekly habit NOW of putting a minimum amount of money into it year-round! This will develop a 'cushion' for unforseen crash repair expenses for when you crash (your going to, so accept it!) and will give you time to adjust to an amount you can live without EVERY PAYCHECK of the entire year! This is probably the best advice I can give you as to how to last in this sport financially and helps to spread out the massive costs that can be associated with this sport. Another benifit of having this seperate account is for record keeping and tax purposes if you choose to go that route. The general rule I suggest is that if you have debt from your last season when your starting a new one, your sinking.

     The Learning Curves licensing school is exactly that, a licensing school, which they do a good job of getting you ready for what is going to happen when you start racing. They also offer advanced schools which deal more with riding technique and individual rider improvement. Realize that the licensing school is only going to touch on the basics of riding itself and will concentrate more on the safe operation of a racing event and get you some track time to get you acclimated to the environment. I also have taken a school with SuperDave (Visionsports - VRS) and highly suggest working with him. His schools focus more on riding technique and personal improvement. I personally would suggest taking both schools since they each offer things that the other does not. Seeking good instruction from the start will be some of the best investment in your racing you will ever do. Trying to relearn something after developing bad habits from trying to do it yourself is much more difficult than learning it correctly from the start.

     I personally would do the minimum required to use your current bike to get your certificate now, then get the bike you will race and prepare for next season. Good luck! :)

[dylanfan53]

Mike,
That's some of the best advice I've seen on this board.  It should be archived somewhere and reread to all new racers, especially the financial suggestions.  I can't count the number of times I've heard of people losing a season due to lack of finances.  If a person can't afford to set aside something out of each paycheck, what makes them think they can afford to pay it all at once using a credit card?

Gridding at the end of the pack is a workable idea.  The other side of that is if he progresses well during the season he may lose out on the chance to get points toward a possible championship (if that matters to him).  More importantly, because of his backmarker gridding he will probably give up contingency money (tires, certs. mainly) that is available to those who finish in front.

If I were to do it again (I'd have hit on that pretty blonde waitress when I was a kid...geez, where did that come from... ::) )

Sorry.  As I was saying...if I were to do it again, the first year I'd do a few race schools, lots of track days and only a few races to keep points down and get comfortable actually racing.  That way you'd come out more competitively in your first season as a rookie without being a yellow plated sandbagger.  Of course, that would require a year of patience.  Just a thought...

  

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

Thanks Don. :)

     I agree with the contingency aspect as you mentioned, but that also leads to the ever touchy debate about contingency being offered to Amateurs in the 1st place and the rampent abuse of that privilege by sandbaggers. I made that tough choice to start in the back for my 1st season to better myself and get experience in exchange for not recieving any contingency most of the time (though I was able to work my way up to the top 10 by the end of the season). My 2nd year as an Amateur was when I decided to put what I had learned into practice and concentrate on running with the front pack and watch the points then. I believe that a racers 1st true year of racing should concentrate on learning to race as opposed to being distracted by points or contingency, just my opinion.

     To Pete who started this thread, you may not understand the whole contingency / sandbagging issue which is a sore subject here occasionally. Many people, including myself, believe that contingency and purse money should be eliminated or greatly reduced for the Amateur classes. Amateur classification should be used for learning and developing your skills and should be a step on the ladder in your progression of ability. Sadly though there are those that abuse this and stay Amateur as long as possible to reap all the contingency and purse money they can by sandbagging and taking advantage of the truely new racers entering the sport. There are those who truely need more time as an Amateur to figure it out, but sadly that's not the case with the front running multi-year Amateurs.

     Another reason many are against the Amateur contingency / purse money payouts is due to what was mentioned by SuperDave and myself earlier, the average 2-3 seasons that people last in this sport before quiting. Those that argue for Amateur payouts will say that it is needed to help compensate the investment they are making when getting started. Those of us against it will argue that there are very few of us that have been involved in this sport for any length of time. Why is that? Because to run as an Expert and go fast it requires money, which isn't readily available through payouts to Experts much beyond the front runners. If the money being paid out in the Amateur ranks was shifted to the Expert classes for greater and deeper payouts into the field we would probably see racers lasting much longer in this sport. But sadly the people offering these payouts realize that with the current set-up most racers won't last more than 1 or 2 years once they go Expert so they try and get the Amateurs hooked on using their products by offering them incentives to use them (this is what contingency is, using a specific manufacturers product and getting paid for it if you finish well and you have their stickers on your bike and list them as a sponser).

     This is bass-ackwards thinking because it ultimately penalizes those that are devoted to the sport and have progressed to Expert status. The lack of support to the Experts also helps to keep people at the regional racing level. If there was more support to the Experts I believe it would help more Experts to take that next step up the ladder and try racing as a Pro (how often do you see full grids on TV? It's certainly not because there aren't people that want to do it, it's because of the cost).

      I hope this doesn't lead to a battle here about this subject, I just wanted to explain this to you since it's a very real subject in this sport. :)

[Super Dave]

First things first.

You've got to get on the track.  Some pick things up quick, some don't.  I have a good understanding about the why's of both, but I don't let all that out of the bag at once.  

I've taken riders that have no motorcycle experience and put them in the top five on their first weekend at the end of the year against multi year amateurs and multi year amateurs that have raced all year additionally.  And I've worked with expert racers that still can't get things going right to do better that weekend or the next weekend.

But, if you don't try, you don't race.

[extrakt0r]

First things first.

You've got to get on the track.  Some pick things up quick, some don't.  I have a good understanding about the why's of both, but I don't let all that out of the bag at once.  

I've taken riders that have no motorcycle experience and put them in the top five on their first weekend at the end of the year against multi year amateurs and multi year amateurs that have raced all year additionally.  And I've worked with expert racers that still can't get things going right to do better that weekend or the next weekend.

But, if you don't try, you don't race.

 ;D I won my 1st CCS Race the same weekend I attended Dave's Class. He know what he is talking about.

Glad to see you made your way from the r6-forum...

Welcome...  8)

[PolishPete]

Yup, came over here from the R6 Forum...and thanks guys...keep it coming....as the advice is great.  My buddy who raced CCS, and will race again when I start, did not race that last two seasons because of money...so I know all about that....I do have another bank account set-up just for the racing...so how about that...looks like I'm on a good role huh??  I'm very competitive...I HATE loosing, but my first year I will try to FORCE myself to stay back and learn...I don't want to die, and running out of my league will just get me hurt.  I plan on doing the class, track days, track days, track days...(which by the way, what are the details about track days in the midwest area??), and only a handful of races...(change this as I see how things go).  I want to make this my hobby...for years...your guys's whole attitude and exitment and comradery (seems like theres a lot) is awesome...can't wait to start.  What other tips....hows it all work with the points and giveaways (tires) what you guys were talking about earlier??  Thanks!!!!!!

[Super Dave]

Touching one of my nerves...

Track days...

Well, what are you going to learn on your own chasing riders recreating?

And if you have lots ot learn, you should find someone that knows something and learn something valuable, like set up, making changes, not resting around and "following" and "learning".

If it was just about following and stuff, then who ever followed the most would eventually be the fastest.  It doesn't work that way.  There are mind games that we play with ourselves in making issues our of what we feel are our own inabilities and lacking the information to make any kind of fair change to a bike to make it better, or worse.  

Change for changes sake can be good.  But many riders simply just ride the same bike with a similar set up session after session looking for an improvement simply via volume lapping.  Yeah, it can help one over come some of the sensory overload, but after that...

Track days are NOT necessary to be fast.

If that were the case, Honda would have Nicky and Max doing laps all day long to beat Rossi.

[extrakt0r]

Well,

Living near Chicago is going to be a huge + for you if you run CCS vs. Living in Kansas City like me...

You have alot of tracks which are closer to you than to me...

My average communte to race is 450+ Miles, which is normally 10+ Hours one way...

Living in the Chicago area puts you close to Blackhawk, Autobahn, Gingerman, Road America, they are all alot closer to you than me, so you can run them more, get more laps around them...

I only have Heartland Park and MAM close to me...I know Super Dave does alot at Blackhawk, and it is probably my 3rd Fav Track after Road America and Barber...

But....

Track Days and Racing are 100% different...Once you get your "base" skill set down get out and race, and you will get alot faster...As soon as that flag drops, everything changes, and while track days are nice, if you want to get really fast and excel, you need to race...

I raced my 1st CCS Weekend after only being on the track 3 times prior, as a matter of fact, it was the three weekends prior to my races at Road America this year...

I don't think there is a pre-request to doing "x" track days before racing, but you need to do some track days and once you are comfortable, hit the races...

I took the Jim Milroy school at Mid-America Motorplex and had my CCS Lic w/o any issues...