Congrats to Greg Melka on #1 Overall Florida, been a long time coming. Been to Homestead many times but this weekend was just ridiculous with the red flags in the morning. Anyways happy to be one of the ones who survived it. Think AM GTU was red flagged 5x. Guys running into each other in the parking lot? WTF? I think helicopter came everyday for someone. I know there was some titles on the line but come on people. Props to Henry during rider's meeting for acknowledging some problems and getting them rectified promptly.
It is awesome to have such a energetic group of riders showing up to the events, but CCS will need to address the fact that many of our FL region riders do NOT speak English. The rider running into Lee Farmer in the pits was just unreal, and HD had addressed fast riding in the pits in the riders meeting. But, the guy that hit Lee doesn't speak english.. so did someone translate everything said in a meeting to him? was he even at the riders meeting? I'm not sure what the answer is, but we need to get the proper instructions and safety rules to ALL the riders.
I agree with the craziness on track being a bit out of hand as well. More than a few races i was in were red flagged, and some like your Mark, had more than one red flag. Stewart Hall from here in Tampa was flown out when an idot ON THE WARM UP LAP torpedoed him in turn 12 ..
I know CCS and Henry will look at this, and took the first steps in addressing pit riding in the riders meeting .. it just needs the next step to get the point across to those that only speak Spanish (or whatever language). Sadly stupid will always be stupid REGARDLESS of the rider's nationality, and nothing can be done to protect us from those riders. I only hope they crash themselves out of the sport (hopefully without hurting themselves of course) before they hurt someone else..
PS: yes. I too am happy i won the #1 plate, it will look nice alongside my five #2 plates :)
Henry should run it this way,the race gets red flagged more then twice it gets bumped to the end of the day if theres time to run it ... that race took over an hour to complete. Nice job again Greg ... Mr #1 .... and yes I'm sure most of the language barrier isnt good
Big congradulations Greg!
You be the man, numero uno, number one, best in show. Congrats Greg and wear that Number 1 proudly, you earned it big time!!!! :cheers:
thanks guys.. :)
i would give it up in a heartbeat though if more riders would put safety higher on their priority list..
Congrats Greg, you certainly earned it!
I think Henry simply needs to adopt a stricter policy- if you hit someone in the pits you should not be allowed to race. Accidents happen but he should be able to make a judgement call. I believe there is a provision for this in the CCS rulebook.
On track it's much harder to regulate, but something needs to be done- Eric M. was taken out by one of these the soon-to-be-expert young riders at a track day and is still not back. This rider seems to have calmed down of late but plenty of damage was done in this and other similar incidents.
Henry needs to address it somehow, as it IS and WILL discourage people from racing, and that is not good for the sport.
And BTW Greg, you need to show me how you went so fast on Tom's LW bike (which I have been told is old and uncompetitive)!
Here's a comment I saw online.....
"As a WERA-West refugee, Homestead/CCS was totally cool"
Quote from: Gino230 on December 04, 2012, 12:54:14 PM
Congrats Greg, you certainly earned it!
I think Henry simply needs to adopt a stricter policy- if you hit someone in the pits you should not be allowed to race. Accidents happen but he should be able to make a judgement call. I believe there is a provision for this in the CCS rulebook.
On track it's much harder to regulate, but something needs to be done- Eric M. was taken out by one of these the soon-to-be-expert young riders at a track day and is still not back. This rider seems to have calmed down of late but plenty of damage was done in this and other similar incidents.
Henry needs to address it somehow, as it IS and WILL discourage people from racing, and that is not good for the sport.
And BTW Greg, you need to show me how you went so fast on Tom's LW bike (which I have been told is old and uncompetitive)!
the Michelin Cup tires Gino.. :) just try a set. Tom wasn't crazy about them for his first ride due to the dramatic feedback you get from the stiffer front michelin tire. But his lap times in practice, on a shitty old rear michelin i put on, was less than 1 second off his best race times :)
If i had more time to work on gearing with his bike, we may have gone even faster. I was on the limiter all the way down the hill into t1. And i thought in practice, 3rd gear would work in the slower corners. I ended up using 2nd to try and stay on Charlie's tail as the drive and engine braking were better, but i was a bit high in the rpm range.
Tom's bike is really pretty damn good, and the triple clamp he sells and put on his bike, really gets it to turn. Jane's bike is similar, but doesn't have the same triple clamp. it turns ok, but not like Tom's bike. Those things were a total blast to ride. I can't thank those 2 enough from ducatidepot enough.
other thing I noticed Gino, is the corner entry that i have, being used to the 600cc. I just didn't understand why some of the guys were hitting the brakes where they do, when coming off the faster bikes, we are used to higher speed. I will say this Mavros is very good on the brakes. He totally parks it in the corners, and that killed my lines, but he could power out and keep the lead. Hats off to him for that.
I like the idea of an AUTOMATIC suspension if you hit someone in the pits. That shit is just uncalled for. I was freaked out after Lee's incident, and found myself coming to a stop at the edge of some of the trailers not knowing if some idiot was going to come flying by..
Gino will be racing Middleweight next year...... :boink:
Quote from: leeroy996 on December 04, 2012, 05:34:51 PM
Gino will be racing Middleweight next year...... :boink:
Really? On the 749?
The "old and uncompetitive" comment was a dig at myself, as my bike is nearly identical to Tom's, as we somewhat proved at Daytona. You raise a good point about brakes, since I brake at almost the same place on my 749 as I do on the LW bike- but the 749 has better brakes and is generally more stable. Mavros is good on the brakes and his bikes always make good power which is a tough combination. Especially for guys like me that are weak in the racecraft (i.e. passing) department.
Your comment about T1 says alot however- Being on the limiter going down the hill....well that's something I really need to work up to.
The MW decision has not been made, but if I did go that route it would be on an 848. The 749 is great but a bit fragile...the real idea is to get into the expert practice group so I can learn from the pros. Honestly after seeing how fast Greg went on a borrowed 1000DS, I am much less likely to believe that it's the bike holding me back. Back to the drawing board....
Quote from: MELK-MAN on December 03, 2012, 12:22:42 PM
PS: yes. I too am happy i won the #1 plate, it will look nice alongside my five #2 plates :)
:biggrin: :thumb:
Gino and Greg- After speaking with Tom we have concluded just how good Tom's bike is and it is a good gauge of where the lightweight rider class compares to a #1 plate rider. I think we can all agree the top level riders can extract more of the performance from a bike than mere mortals. It certainly give me a gauge of where I am and it is something that I like about the fast guys riding in the lightweight class.
For me this past weekend was a struggle, losing two of the three championships I was in contention to win. My confidence was just not there from the start and I seem to believe first the track days that I had just attended screwed with my head. My brake markers were all of, at least from the perceptional side of things. On the track day because of closing speeds and unpredictable lines of the track day riders I found myself very tentative entering many corners.
My confidence was further hurt when circulating very slowly I would tuck the front in T8, where Jane had just crashed. Then in T6 on the same circulation of lap I would tuck the front on the other side and just barely get it back to an upright position. It seemed to let go just the same as it did at JGP only there I had full confidence and was back up to speed. Here at Homestead it was different and confidence was low.
One benefit I have had is that Nancy captures images of many of the riders. I then compare my position on track and on the bike which gives me good information that is beneficial. One thing I have observed of you Gino is that your position is very good and much like Greg's. It leads me to believe that you are charging the corners where I am tip toeing.
In the end during the Thunderbike race I could have kept pace with greg but lack of confidence kept me back. After viewing the times there is no reason why I didn't do better with my personal best times and race times being very close to what was being turned on that Sunday. I like seeing some of those fast guys ride lightweight. It only makes me faster because I know it can be done.
One more thing. I am never the fastest in a race but I have always focus on consistency. I seem to pass well and that gives me some advantage come race time.
gino I suspect that you tend to follow more than use your own race lines. I follow a concept that Geoff May spoke of which was to put focus in the available traction and not someone's rear wheel. it was this technique that I regained by the end of the day on Sunday and was able to close on Vito in T1 and T10.
Mark - It just comes down to more gas less brake,but you being a GENIUS should already know this :ahhh:
Steve the Genius is knowing when to use that approach.
Mark and Gino, I will point out it is MUCH easier to come from the 600 and go (what appears to be) fast on the light weight bike. I am entering corners on that duc1k wondering why some riders are getting on the brakes. It is a PERCEPTION of speed entering corners that is engrained from the faster 600 (faster in straight line).
The key to that twin, for me, was also using the engine braking to help it turn. In some ways it was cutting an arc and finding the apex better than my R6.. when i stayed off the gas long enough. if i opened the gas early, it didn't work so well.
And on charging the corners.. Santiago made a comment to me that helped about T6 on the r6. He said i charged TOO hard there. It would affect the entry and ultimately the exit of the corner.
I too think there was something on the track Saturday in T8 where Jane fell. It was better Sunday, but it affected me as well as that was far from my best corner over the weekend.
gearing.. it really changed on the Duc from practice to race day. I was in 3rd gear during practice in T3-4, t6,t8,final turn, but that was when i could use MY lines, and really carry the pace. I ran faster laps Friday than i did in the actual races behind Charlie "The Blocker" Mavros (good on him though, he knew what he had to do). In the races, i was down to 2nd gear for t3-4, T6, T6, and the final corner. Had i know i would use 2nd, i might have stuck with the smaller rear sprocket we tried saturday rather than be on the limiter all the way down the hill in T1. Normally you run a bit SLOWER in practice, and find out you are undergeared in the races. . it was the opposite this weekend. I knew i would be on the limiter in T1, but when i tried 3rd with a smaller sprocket in those aformentioned turns, it was too low rpm with no motor braking. I should have just used 2nd in practice. It likely woudn't have mattered though as Charlies sb paul smart was wicked fast.
bottom line?? Practice is the time to TRY SHIT. :) too many riders focus on just riding around with the same set up they had from the previous round, on the same brand of tires, with the same gearing.. instead of trying stuff. Now that said, i spend a few years chasing ALL kinds of set up changes. We pulled forks off and revalved, swapped shocks, etc. F-that. I just would rather focus on having fun and make minor changes here and there once a pretty good set up is found :)
PS: i had a blast riding with those that i normally don't race with this weekend. BUmmed to hear you didn't close those 2 championships Tenn. And Mark, not sure how long you are trying to use front tires, but that Michelin VB DOT front is the best tire i have ever ran. HANDS DOWN. that includes any slick michelin has had to date. But, i put a NEW one on from time to time :)
Awesome job Greg. Sorry I got in the way on the last lap of the GPL race rolling onto the front straight. Charlie just got around me then I saw you run a bit wide to the left. I went down to give you a big sorry bro after the race but you were already back out. How many races did you do? Al said something like 11? Wow, you are da man...
Had a great time even though like most others have said, a bit too much drama for this boy..
Looking forward to 2013!!
Quote from: dantheman on December 05, 2012, 09:03:14 PM
Awesome job Greg. Sorry I got in the way on the last lap of the GPL race rolling onto the front straight. Charlie just got around me then I saw you run a bit wide to the left. I went down to give you a big sorry bro after the race but you were already back out. How many races did you do? Al said something like 11? Wow, you are da man...
Had a great time even though like most others have said, a bit too much drama for this boy..
Looking forward to 2013!!
it couldn't have been any real problem with you, I don't remember it :) And yes, there was more drama involved than i care to think about, not only on this weekend but in race weekends prior to this one. Shenanigans i tell you. I won't go into details.
Charlie and I both entered 11 races.. it was a long damn day, I don't like doing it that way.. but thank goodness i have been kicking butt in offroad harescramble dirt bike racing the past couple years. I was in shape enough I felt decent at the end of the day. Thanks!
Greg- It was my fault with the tires and not the fault of the tires. This year I really tried some different things with the tires for the first time using the Michelin slick, albeit probably old tech slicks. The feeling was quite different with the slicks and the profile was definitely different. All this was in an attempt to cut cost. in previous years on the Bridgestone I could run a complete season on $700 out of pocket. The first year with Michelin was $1500 out of pocket. The past two years without contingency has seen a considerable rise at around $3500 and that is with budgeting. I typically race for the first 20-30 laps, and then practice for up to 100 laps on the set of tires. The rubber may be worn but there is usually good traction within 1 second of my personal best. I many times get my fastest lap of the tires at the end of the set. I believe that my bikes are set mostly for worn tires and not new/fresh tires.
On race day with the 6 lap slicks I had an unsurmountable chatter that just wasn't there the round before. And with no practice at this track with that tire it was all new. I felt as though if I pushed harder I would completely lose the front as I did trying to pick up the pace when you went by. I just had it all wrong. And yeah, you are right when you say trying stuff is better done in practice.
Another thing, up to this point I have been learning about the changes of my riding and how it effects lap times. I am currently monitoring sector times and the changing approach from a rider's standpoint. I make small changes to the bike mainly tire pressures and some suspension adjustments. I rarely change gearing settling on an area of the track that I think gives me the best result.
One thing that has hampered me is the gearing difference between the 800(little bike) and the 748. I must do more shifting with the 800 especially through T7 at Homestead. The 748 is more like a 600 middleweight bike and it is where it would compete in the past. I will probably move to the Expert practice with the 748 and find pac there. It's capable of running with most 600s in that class.
i found gearing differences in the duc1000 and duc800 too. I thought it was just the difference in power, but it really seemed there were internal trans differences, but i could be wrong.
I am finding the slick is best at jennings, but at all the other tracks i prefer the VB dot michelin front. I went back to back at daytona, as well as homestead, and the feel is just better on my bikes than the slick front.. That front tire on the ds1000 was amazing. It did chatter at Jennings when we rode there the weekend before this homestead round, but we made some minor changes that seemed to help. one "find" i made for both bikes, was the rebound adjusters on the shock were way way soft.. Jane's bike was almost bouncy in the rear. She was much happier with it after we firmed it.
I have found many times when riding another person's bike and going faster, then that person would pick up the pace on their own bike. Sometimes we just need reassurance from another rider that our bike is good.
I also believe the internal ratios are different and with the 748 there is a lot more gear there. I many times find myself shifting too early with the 748. I wasn't ready for Sunday and just not up to speed. I intend to stick with the Power cup for the 800 next year. All this year I had been on the older power one on the 800 and the Power Cup on the 748. The Power Cup are just that good.
Quote from: majicMARKer on December 06, 2012, 11:00:58 AM
I have found many times when riding another person's bike and going faster, then that person would pick up the pace on their own bike. Sometimes we just need reassurance from another rider that our bike is good.
I also believe the internal ratios are different and with the 748 there is a lot more gear there. I many times find myself shifting too early with the 748. I wasn't ready for Sunday and just not up to speed. I intend to stick with the Power cup for the 800 next year. All this year I had been on the older power one on the 800 and the Power Cup on the 748. The Power Cup are just that good.
Tom picked it up at Jennings, he was leaning like a madman.. and ran close to his race pace in practice at Homestead. As Gino said too, seeing the ds1000 go somewhat fast gives some confidence. If you were riding a power1 "V" front.. SHAME on you ..LOL.. the power1 rears were not that bad. i used one at Jennings on his bike (as we had no new cups) and it was pretty solid, but had the VB front on. I will NEVER go out on a power1 V front having been on the new cup fronts.
I have been running the Power one V all year on the 800 and tried the slick a couple of time. I did well at JGP and PBIR on the slick. I need my confidence back to go quick and next year will be all Power Cup.
Quote from: majicMARKer on December 06, 2012, 11:22:50 AM
I have been running the Power one V all year on the 800 and tried the slick a couple of time. I did well at JGP and PBIR on the slick. I need my confidence back to go quick and next year will be all Power Cup.
you will REALLY like that power cup dot front.I wish i knew you were rolling around on a V. i would have given you one of my slightly used fronts.
I'm sticking with BStones until they arent free anymore :-) .... and after that I'll still have 3-4 sets sitting around.
Quote from: Knedragon on December 06, 2012, 01:13:49 PM
I'm sticking with BStones until they arent free anymore :-) .... and after that I'll still have 3-4 sets sitting around.
LoL Steve. Bridgestone has been good on contingency when you are winning or at least top five. it was one of my best seasons on the Bridgestone only costing $700. I haven't realized a difference in race wins or speed but I don't think I am using all the tire. I could push the Bridgestone more easily than Michelin but are predicable very early. The Michelin feedback comes later but still remain predictable.
I am not sure what the hoopla is all about on the Dunlop other than watching other fast guys win on them. Well this year a Michelin fast guy has the Florida Number One plate. Was Brad on Michelins when he won the #1?
Hey Mark,I do get a vague feeling form the front .... been working on that and next year at Homestead at least I'm gonna run the real soft front and a soft rear and see what happens.Wont be able to do that at a track like Roebling but it may work every where else.This whole year I ran the YCX 125/front and YCY Rear ... could never go out and gain a even a lb on the front,been rolling out down to 27 hot and still come in 27 hot.Maybe the 250 is to lite on the front.Never had trouble with the Flops in that regard.Always would get a lb or 2.The little bike to me it doesnt matter much,I've run BStones,Dunlops,Michelins and Pirellies and they all seem to work pretty much the same.
Quote from: majicMARKer on December 06, 2012, 02:17:02 PM
LoL Steve. Bridgestone has been good on contingency when you are winning or at least top five. it was one of my best seasons on the Bridgestone only costing $700. I haven't realized a difference in race wins or speed but I don't think I am using all the tire. I could push the Bridgestone more easily than Michelin but are predicable very early. The Michelin feedback comes later but still remain predictable.
I am not sure what the hoopla is all about on the Dunlop other than watching other fast guys win on them. Well this year a Michelin fast guy has the Florida Number One plate. Was Brad on Michelins when he won the #1?
Brad was on Michelins for all of the racing he did other than the AMA stuff on the Dud848 with Celtic racing. those were Dunlop obviously. He snagged the SE #1 though from me that year .. I'm the first to get a FL #1 :)
I am CONVINCED that many riders are running dunlop for the simple fact it's the AMA tire. I was at the dunlop big-rig friday having them mount a tire for me, 2 guys came up that were just track day guys. not even riding that weekend. THey asked specifically for "the tires that the guys use in AMA". He was told, "these are the exact tires used in AMA" .. those guys looked like they were going to shit themselves with excitement. Stefano Mesa ran the Michelins at his CCS races this year, and won a bunch of races.. We talked lots about them. The front tires are a toss up if you compare to the uk dunlop. both awesome. The rear uk dunlop does last a bit longer but are $550 for that set.
the us dunlops? at least to mid season this year it was OBVIOUS when the fast FL guys were on the US tires. I could beat them 8) I talked to a few of them, and they were candid with me and said yea.. the us tire is at LEAST 1-2 seconds slower. The us tire made some changes, but is still questionable depending on who you talk with, at how much slower than the UK tire it is. I watched Nico Fellipe Ferrera go from one of the fastest 600 riders, to looking downright average when he tired to run with us in a ccs event on the US tire. He literrally didn't finish the GTU earlier this year he was so pissed. Same with Manny Manuthusakis. He was way back on the US tire, and switched to the UK tire.. bam. He was on my ass just like that. I hear there were updates to the US tire, but of the guys that i talk to, they are still not as fast as the UK tire. This of course is me talking, and i have never ran ANY of those tires.
There is NO reason any club racer should not try the michelin tire. the front michelin is likely better than the us dunlop (and for sure is according to Thermosman). I can totally understand guys like Lee Farmer and Alan S. running the dunlop to earn lots of contingency.. and the fast experts have tire deals AND contingency that make it tough to switch from dunlop.
Ahhh the post race riding discussion....one of my favorites. Besides this board needs some more action other than the midwest guys constant complaining. :)
I arrived at Homestead well rested and very confident following Daytona. Knowing you can actually run up front really helps. Also I was feeling a little under the weather Friday-Saturday, so when the alarm went off Saturday Morning, I just shut it off and figured the hell with it. (I missed the Friday track day due to work). As a result I got to the track around 11 and got out for the first afternoon session.
This time I approached practice very differently. Usually I take a few sessions to "get up to speed" (whatever that means). This time I focused on just ONE of my big weaknesses that I pinpointed at Daytona: I concentrated on releasing the brake earlier in each corner, thus carrying more corner speed. In the past I spent too much time focusing on the apex and thus was braking way too long. This felt good and I got to within a second of my personal best times within 2 sessions. In the past, I rode around all day and sometimes never achieved race pace, all the while wearing myself and the equipment out.
Race day I also slept in and skipped the morning warmup and GT races. I got right down to business and was able to get within .25 second of my personal best on both bikes. Of course it still didn't result in wins (I still have alot to work on as far as starts and race craft).
My bikes are VERY different, the 749 handles amazingly well but it must be ridden like a 600 or GP bike- lots of revs and lots of shifting. One breakthrough I made on the 749 is grabbing an extra downshift before corner entry. This would allow me to brake later, grab that extra downshift and let the slipper clutch work at slowing the bike all the way to the apex. Also it puts me right in the powerband at corner exit. This helped me tremendously in 6-7, where I was getting pulled by the 2 valves while I waited for my 749 to spool up like an old jet engine.
Seeing Greg get into the 1:33's on the DS shows me that I still have alot of work to do- it has been a long time since anyone was under 1:35 on the DS platform- Jeff Wood did a 1:29 on Hudlett (later Sullivan's) old bike, but that had ohlins forks, brakes, carbon wheels, etc. One thing I am torn about- I have always been very easy on equipment- always conserving the clutches, easy on the revs, etc. which has allowed me to compete on some pretty high level bikes very economically. However I need to start pushing stuff harder if I'm going to make any progress.
I have a few more ideas where I can make time, and I am going to concentrate more on QUALITY practice time rather than quantity. I am going to have to try something, as the gauntlet has been thrown down. I must beat Chris Boy and his NCR at Daytona.
I found motor braking critical on these twin cyl bikes Gino, as you discovered with the extra downshift, you can turn them much better. In practice, i was trying 3rd in some corners as we didn't have a lot of time to work with gearing. Had i known i would use 2nd gear, i woulda left the smaller rear sprocket for more speed in the straights. I must have tried to shift to "7th" about 50 times on Sunday..LOL.
Now i know, and have passed that info on to Tom, so it will surely help him next season.
I am not so sure letting off the brakes is the fastest way, at least all the way. In theory, you trail em all the way to the apex. the more you lean, the more you release the brake. If done right, you just get to the apex as you are totally off the brake. in theory! lol.. it may be easier for you to set up and brake sooner then let off much more entering the corner, but Charlie will shoot up the inside. He is very good on the brakes (as i'm sure you know).
32's would have been very easy. With Charlie in the way i was looking for lines around entering corners much of the time. On Friday, i did a high 31 the 2nd time out on the bike.. :)
Chris's NCR is silly fast. He was literally playing with us on that thing. I have been on track with my r6 with him, it's easily as fast as my bike in a straight line. Not sure about top speed, but at Homestead it pulls wheel to wheel.. LOL !
And i know you are sick of me saying it, but that michelin VB power cup front tire was just stupid good. That is what we ran on Tom's bike. i could put that thing wherever i wanted, and it never gave me one hint of trouble. Some of you guys really just need to try them. It's one set of tires. if the lap times don't improve, go back.
Quote from: MELK-MAN on December 10, 2012, 05:42:37 PM
And i know you are sick of me saying it, but that michelin VB power cup front tire was just stupid good. That is what we ran on Tom's bike. i could put that thing wherever i wanted, and it never gave me one hint of trouble. Some of you guys really just need to try them. It's one set of tires. if the lap times don't improve, give them to Mark Tenn
Fixed it for you Greg. Yes it always seems you need another gear, but I venture to say it is mainly that you are coming from the high rev R6. At least compared to the air cooled twins it is a high rev machine. One of the characteristics I have found with the Ducati air cooled is they get wheezy on the top rpm. At least my bikes are. Listening to the video soundtrack and your shifting it seemed you just ran out of gear and there was more speed there for turn one.
It seemed to me you were racing Charlie very cleanly and he wasn't doing his usual antics. That was some good racing on both effort. He used his strong points and capitalized on them. If you weren't so kind you could have pushed through, but those are high risk.
LOL.. I like the initiative Mark. :)
PS: and Jeff Wood did 29's on a similar bike.. not so much cause it has fancy bits, but because he's a bad muther fugger.
Yes, I still trail brake. But in the past, I would trail all the way to the apex and park it in the middle of the corner (looking too long at the apex and not through the corner). So I concentrated on easing off the brake earlier, thus keeping the corner speed up. Next step is to brake LATER so that I must trail it all the way to the apex.
Rather than working on that 15 feet where I'm barely on the brake "coasting" to the apex, I think I would benefit more from working on getting the throttle wide open earlier. I crack it as soon as I get off the brakes, but I'm very gentle on the roll on as I pick the bike up, so it takes longer to get to full throttle. I'm not comfortable breaking the rear loose regularly. With the Daytona (hard) tire I could get on the gas just a bit and get the rear loose but not really spinning. With the softer US dunlop slick I haven't been able to spin it.
I've been told it's not who gets the throttle open first, but who gets to FULL throttle first- so I'm working on that.
The air cooled bikes are totally different from the 4 valve Ducs. On my air cooled bike, I gear a bit taller and use the torque of the engine, shifting around 7-7500 RPM. At Daytona in practice I was sailing by Tom on the banking, he was revving out to 9200 and I was geared to run alone topped out at 7250, 7700 or so in the draft which would allow me to keep pulling to 8000 in a draft pass...classic "overrev". I made the same mistake as Tom did last year with gearing and learned my lesson as the bike would accelerate beautifully in the draft, when I pulled out it would not make it by.
And yes Mark, I do need to learn to try different lines when passing. Part of the issue is that I am very conservative when passing. I have not touched the pavement (except with my knees and tires) Since 2004- that's alot of race miles (that time in the pits at PBIR doesn't count) and it's tough to run up front and still be that careful.
Lee Farmer had the pleasure of being behind me last weekend, he says "you don't start racing until the second lap" which is somewhat true, as I am a little too cautious getting through traffic. It's a tough sport, always something to learn.
As for Chris and the NCR, here is the story:
Since he doesn't race much, Chris' favorite passtime is messing with my head prior to races. Usually about what ringer will be showing up to race in "my" classes. In Daytona it was all about "Bob Robbins is building a 749"....at Homestead "Jeff Wood is racing Thunderbike" and on and on. I have gotten a little immune to the ribbing, so he upped his game now and is threatening to race Daytona on the NCR. After he, Barbie, and Jason Edmonds plied me with alcohol on Saturday night he started in on how he was going to whoop me at Daytona, is capable of 1:57's, etc. Well, I responded that I did 1:59's on the 749 and the bike has alot more in it....besides that piston-thrower he rides has a good chance of DNF'ing around the high banks. So now it's on. At least we didn't go so far as betting pink slips, since I can't afford to maintain that NCR should I win.
So in short I'm looking for a good coach. Barring that, I'll hire someone who can plug into that NCR's computer and slow it down a little bit.
there is a lot to learn about those bikes, for sure. And gearing as you found is critical. Even at homestead, I'm certain it will be faster using 2nd in all the slow stuff, and pulling longer in 6th. There is no reason i was looking for 7th gear so many times.. Rolling through in 3rd gear through those corners with low rpm on the duc is not the fast way around homestead, unless it's running out of rmp way before it should in 6th in multiple areas as it was for me.. So that should be a FREE lesson to you :)
There is some truth to the "he who gets to full throttle first wins".. but in my experience, it's a bit of your earlier statement too. Rolling on early.. I would say ya need a bit of both. Getting the gas open, but a nice roll-on to FWO.
A little rear end slip is something you would do well to get comfortable with. One cool thing about these twins, is as it is such lower rpm than the R6 when this is going on usually, there is more notice when it does happen. I was actually surprised a few times when it did happen, and that was even using the smaller 180 tire Michelin offers, not the 190 that Bob Cole uses on his bimota, and I use on the R6. I would break loose on occasion exiting the final corner trying (i knew in vain) to drive out underneath Mavros on his bike. A few other corners too..
BUT.. there is something to be said for not falling since 2004. That is only a year after i started, and i have had lots of falls since that date :) Do what ya feel comfortable with, but keep expectations real. Ya know.. on that NCR situation, you could get the rider liquored up the night before. That would slow him down.
I find the bigger bike tends to spin more progressively than these air cooled twins. There's a little bit of rear tire action all of the time, not just one big hit to scare you. The torque low in the revs can make them step out abruptly.
Which factory will be first to offer a 7th. gear in their upcoming models?
That's an awesome history Gino of not crashing. I seem to have a big crash every three years. First in 2003 when I first tried racing, 2007 with 9 ribs, and then 2010 when I broke my scaphoid and thumb. Of course my Ortho told me I would probably lose my thumb.
Gino- I seem to remember an article that I read comparing the telemetry of Carlos Checa compared to his then team mate and the other Ducati WSBK riders. With those results they reported Checa getting on the gas earlier but later to WOT. He was the faster as far as lap times. I would venture to speculate that he didn't use full throttle because of the traction control and he would give just enough throttle to get to but not bump against the traction control. At the times I have been on track with you I can close in on the brake. You seem to hold the brake lever longer than me.
One thing I have learned with the twin is closing the throttle allows the bike to rotate in the turn before cracking it back open. Not a lot of braking needed.
Gino- apparently I was part of one of Chris' ploys to get to you. He asked me if I would beat you in thunder bike on one of those races and he was holding the bets. Something about dinner?
Quote from: tug296 on December 12, 2012, 12:02:36 PM
Which factory will be first to offer a 7th. gear in their upcoming models?
i don't know, but i could have used it at Homestead ! :) I think part of the issue was not practicing with the c12 race fuel. the few extra hp had it running through the gears faster.. i usually never practice with pump.
Quote from: majicMARKer on December 12, 2012, 12:29:14 PM
That's an awesome history Gino of not crashing. I seem to have a big crash every three years. First in 2003 when I first tried racing, 2007 with 9 ribs, and then 2010 when I broke my scaphoid and thumb. Of course my Ortho told me I would probably lose my thumb.
Gino- I seem to remember an article that I read comparing the telemetry of Carlos Checa compared to his then team mate and the other Ducati WSBK riders. With those results they reported Checa getting on the gas earlier but later to WOT. He was the faster as far as lap times. I would venture to speculate that he didn't use full throttle because of the traction control and he would give just enough throttle to get to but not bump against the traction control. At the times I have been on track with you I can close in on the brake. You seem to hold the brake lever longer than me.
One thing I have learned with the twin is closing the throttle allows the bike to rotate in the turn before cracking it back open. Not a lot of braking needed.
turning the bike.. one reason to NOT be afraid of higher rpm's with these twins. Don't just use 1 gear higher and roll through with super low rpm.
1: you have to use more front brake to slow for the corner
2: it won't turn as well for said corner
Also, i think lee touched on it earlier, higher rpm with these things seem to snap the rear out of shape LESS than perhaps lower rpm just as it gets into the meat of the torque. RMP can sometimes be your own traction control.
Quote from: majicMARKer on December 12, 2012, 12:29:14 PM
That's an awesome history Gino of not crashing. I seem to have a big crash every three years. First in 2003 when I first tried racing, 2007 with 9 ribs, and then 2010 when I broke my scaphoid and thumb. Of course my Ortho told me I would probably lose my thumb.
Gino- I seem to remember an article that I read comparing the telemetry of Carlos Checa compared to his then team mate and the other Ducati WSBK riders. With those results they reported Checa getting on the gas earlier but later to WOT. He was the faster as far as lap times. I would venture to speculate that he didn't use full throttle because of the traction control and he would give just enough throttle to get to but not bump against the traction control. At the times I have been on track with you I can close in on the brake. You seem to hold the brake lever longer than me.
One thing I have learned with the twin is closing the throttle allows the bike to rotate in the turn before cracking it back open. Not a lot of braking needed.
Yeah well before that, I crashed 6 times in 5 years- two concussions and lots of aches and pains that lasted a surprisingly long time. So I've been alot more cautious since then.
Greg I'm going to try the higher RPM trick in a few spots and see how it works. Of course if I don't start braking later I'll be way too slow at the entry / apex. It takes a little courage to run it in there deep hoping that extra downshift gets you slowed enough to make it. I once heard that Jeff Wood intentionally overcooks corners in practice to see exactly how deep he can go- might not be a bad trick in some corners with paved runoff (i.e. turn 6?).
I know braking has always been one of my weak points, however this is also the riskiest part of the corner, trailing it in deep seems to be the place where most riders crash...Maybe this is why my luck has held out? Ha ha!
Yes Mark, I'm aware that I owe you dinner....one of these days we'll make it happen!
Hahaha funny Gino. I even gave you guys a head start when I stalled on the grid. That was one heck of a race for me watching you and Vito lead into turn one as I was sitting there at start finish.
Greg there is a fix for the gearing. It's the Cora's transmission but at $6k it's way beyond my meager budget.
I too will try the high RPM trick
http://youtu.be/j-cs7Fve6Bg (http://youtu.be/j-cs7Fve6Bg) < Homestead race. I was still trying to figure out the track I needed another day to get a faster laptime at homestead
http://youtu.be/rVYTw86OWaQ (http://youtu.be/rVYTw86OWaQ) < Fernando Ferreira Silva Crashes into the back of Greg Milka on the start of this Homestead race. Hospitals suck! he did 4 days.
Quote from: design-engine on December 12, 2012, 02:38:58 PM
http://youtu.be/j-cs7Fve6Bg (http://youtu.be/j-cs7Fve6Bg) < Homestead race. I was still trying to figure out the track I needed another day to get a faster laptime at homestead
http://youtu.be/rVYTw86OWaQ (http://youtu.be/rVYTw86OWaQ) < Fernando Ferreira Silva Crashes into the back of Greg Milka on the start of this Homestead race. Hospitals suck! he did 4 days.
Nice!! Greg and Barrett were on rains. You past them both pretty quickly.
Quote from: MELK-MAN on December 12, 2012, 12:50:24 PM
turning the bike.. one reason to NOT be afraid of higher rpm's with these twins. Don't just use 1 gear higher and roll through with super low rpm.
1: you have to use more front brake to slow for the corner
2: it won't turn as well for said corner
Also, i think lee touched on it earlier, higher rpm with these things seem to snap the rear out of shape LESS than perhaps lower rpm just as it gets into the meat of the torque. RMP can sometimes be your own traction control.
This makes good sense Greg. Using the high rpm and the throttle to modulate rear traction
Quote from: majicMARKer on December 12, 2012, 04:18:28 PM
This makes good sense Greg. Using the high rpm and the throttle to modulate rear traction
That's why that Keith Code guy called the book "Twist of the Wrist" :thumb: Throttle is good for lots of stuff.
Quote from: design-engine on December 12, 2012, 02:38:58 PM
http://youtu.be/j-cs7Fve6Bg (http://youtu.be/j-cs7Fve6Bg) < Homestead race. I was still trying to figure out the track I needed another day to get a faster laptime at homestead
http://youtu.be/rVYTw86OWaQ (http://youtu.be/rVYTw86OWaQ) < Fernando Ferreira Silva Crashes into the back of Greg Milka on the start of this Homestead race. Hospitals suck! he did 4 days.
E not an I .. Melka .. not Milka . Gracias..
My buddies in the garage told me rains were not the call, but i had just been out in LW before this race and it was coming down a bit near the end of that one.. figured it WAS the call. Big mistake, but i was wanting to error on the "safe" side if it was slick. No way, no how. Everyone but Barret and I were on dot/slicks. been a long time since i made the wrong call on rains/no rains.
Bart, don't be afraid to ask guys in our class for gearing advice . most will be happy to help out. If i had the same bike as you i would tell ya no questions. You are fast enough that you need to have the gearing in the ballpark to start. Daytona was same deal.. find a fast guy and ask. If ya can't find someone, ask me and i will find someone that can steer ya in the right direction. Email/Pm Carlie long. he is a good guy, fast as fuck, and rides a zuk.
I have no idea why Fernando came down that far from the outside row of row1. Possible the banking we start on had him head down as he let the clutch out? no idea. All i know is i got CREAMED from the right side by Nico who got a great jump. But you can clearly see in the vid Pedro Valiente posted Fernando forced him to the left. It was a REAL bummer that Fernando crashed, it looked nasty, and i am very sad he was as hurt as he was.. As i understand he will be fine, but that was UGLY..
thanks greg. I sure had fun down there in FL with you guys. Looks like I will be teaching a Pro/ENGINEER workshop in Tamp in Jan or Feb so Ill be back there to ride some mx tracks or trails with you greg. Definatly be back for Homestead, Savanna and Jennings.
Quote from: design-engine on December 13, 2012, 03:47:06 PM
thanks greg. I sure had fun down there in FL with you guys. Looks like I will be teaching a Pro/ENGINEER workshop in Tamp in Jan or Feb so Ill be back there to ride some mx tracks or trails with you greg. Definatly be back for Homestead, Savanna and Jennings.
with the rain we have had the past few days, the trails at Croom park in the woods are epic! no dust, lots of traction. I am wore out, rode with some fast open-A guys today. Amazing training..