Poll
Question:
Should it be harder to become an expert?
Option 1: Yes
Option 2: No
Do you think it should be harder to become an expert?
Depends on the criteria,other than racking up points,and or championships,what are we going to use...lap times??Or do you go to a relagation system.Is the question an issue of safety?? As in closing speeds,predictability in close quarters??
In my opinion, it should be harder to stay amateur.
I've always advocated a three tier system.
An expert/pro program at the top.
An entry level novice program with a limited number of races/time period befor moving up to the next level.
A sportsman based program in the middle to fit the needs of most club racers that want to enjoy motorcycle racing without the need to go to extraordinary measures just to never feel competitive in an expert race, are experienced and safe enough to be good racers, and don't belong in an entry level program.
Quote from: Super Dave on June 23, 2009, 04:12:14 PM
I've always advocated a three tier system.
An expert/pro program at the top.
An entry level novice program with a limited number of races/time period befor moving up to the next level.
A sportsman based program in the middle to fit the needs of most club racers that want to enjoy motorcycle racing without the need to go to extraordinary measures just to never feel competitive in an expert race, are experienced and safe enough to be good racers, and don't belong in an entry level program.
+1
Quote from: Super Dave on June 23, 2009, 04:12:14 PM
I've always advocated a three tier system.
An expert/pro program at the top.
An entry level novice program with a limited number of races/time period befor moving up to the next level.
A sportsman based program in the middle to fit the needs of most club racers that want to enjoy motorcycle racing without the need to go to extraordinary measures just to never feel competitive in an expert race, are experienced and safe enough to be good racers, and don't belong in an entry level program.
Yep. No 'championships' in the novice. Probably still have to combine the classes on-track in some way just to get through the day. Maybe have limited novice categories (LW, MW, UNL + a couple of 'twins'/'thunderbike' classes?)
Would you have to request 'Expert/Pro' status? Would some run of Sportsman championships force a bump up?
For me I'm just looking like I will get 400 points this year and thinking I am kind of not worthy of it.
If I race in a class with 5 entries versus a class with 30 is 400 points really the same? My last Ultra Lightweight race had 4 finishes, big deal I got second out of 4.
In one of my Supertwins race there were 4 or 5 people on 1000cc or greater the rest on SV 650's. Normally I am 3-5 seconds faster on my Duc than SV.
In Formula 40 at CMP I think we had 5 people.
Quote from: danch on June 23, 2009, 04:26:33 PM
Yep. No 'championships' in the novice. Probably still have to combine the classes on-track in some way just to get through the day. Maybe have limited novice categories (LW, MW, UNL + a couple of 'twins'/'thunderbike' classes?)
Would you have to request 'Expert/Pro' status? Would some run of Sportsman championships force a bump up?
You're getting it.
Pretty much as you state: no championships in novice. Limited classes for the displacement category only. Simple, straight forward. Limit the opportunity to X number of event weekends or a time period of 12 to 18 months.
Sportsman forced bump? I would say no. But there should be "opportunities" in pro/expert. As it is, there is more contingency money. Allow those that try pro/expert to move back to Sportsman if they wish. Don't leave a rider trying to stay out of racing for three years to come back as a current amateur. Give racers a reason to keep racing, even if it's only a couple times a year in the Sportsman classes.
Quote from: ktd on June 23, 2009, 04:30:19 PM
For me I'm just looking like I will get 400 points this year and thinking I am kind of not worthy of it.
If I race in a class with 5 entries versus a class with 30 is 400 points really the same? My last Ultra Lightweight race had 4 finishes, big deal I got second out of 4.
In one of my Supertwins race there were 4 or 5 people on 1000cc or greater the rest on SV 650's. Normally I am 3-5 seconds faster on my Duc than SV.
In Formula 40 at CMP I think we had 5 people.
I see where you're coming from - in a lot of those classes it'd be easy to pile up 'expert' points without feeling much like an 'expert' racer.
Quote from: ronhix on June 23, 2009, 04:06:30 PM
In my opinion, it should be harder to stay amateur.
I agree. Not enough incentive to turn ex.... to much incentive to stay am
You can pettition to stay am. if you're not totally comfy with the bump.Not sure who and how they let stay yellow.
Quote from: jigs on June 23, 2009, 04:36:55 PM
You can pettition to stay am. if you're not totally comfy with the bump.Not sure who and how they let stay yellow.
I will prob try that but with my results you would think I was fast.
A friend of mine Helmsman is his handle on the board,did well last year,pettitioned and stayed am.I'm not sure of his approach though,or how he went about it.
+1 on making it harder to stay amateur. I would also venture that there should be less incentive to stay an AM.
The AM grids are tiny this year. I can't help but wonder if it's because people look at laptimes while considering racing and see AM's posting EX times and think - ack, I got no chance!
ktd, I think if you have well meaning reasons to stay AM, then petition to stay AM. If your performance index is low, and the number of entries in each race is low, I don't think it would be much of an argument. Have you looked at the overall results for your adjusted points with the performance index?
Lots of issues here-
Should it be more difficult to become expert? Probably, but we then need to define difficult.
My first stint at racing was in the early 90's with WSMC. Not only did we have a points requirement, we also had to do a few days of cornerworking duty. So, you really had to show that you were willing to contribute to the health of the sport and club.
In addition, we had to have our race licences signed by 3 experts in good standing with the club. This helped to ensure that people were not assholes to each other- it created a sense of community.
In my opinion, being an expert is less about being able to run within 5 seconds of lap record pace, and more about being a predictable rider, who is not a danger to others. There are plenty of fast AM's that are totally erratic and out of control.
I would also say that if you continue to ride as you have this year, you will be worthy of your white plates. I will have no problem racing with you next year!
Jason
For me, I have to say that;
"Anyone that runs consistantly within 4-5 seconds of the track record, for their bike's class, must go expert".
Case in point, Jimmy Brown 113am. Multiple wins in AMW and a bunch in unlimited w/some 2nds, on a 600,
and within 5 seconds of track records.
KTD, I ran into your exact problem my first year. I rode a Hawk in Ultra lightweight and one weekend at Autobahn racked up 70 points, I was the only bike on the grid on a double points weekend. One weekend I finished 2nd...of 2 at another double points weekend for another 60 points. All for finishing Last, or first, glass half empty or full.
Document your situation and write Kevin and Eric a letter if you are not comfortable. I had purchased an SV at the end of the season which I knew would put me into the pack and felt that I didn't have enough experience passing. After running the SV the next season I felt I had polished my race-craft and was ready to go.
If you feel you are not ready for issues related to being predictable and smooth around other riders or passing then write the letter, if it is a laptime issue, well then I defer to Dave, or whatever his name is this week. Tough question, you just need to take a really honest look at yourself and your skills.
Quote from: Noidly1 on June 23, 2009, 08:24:07 PM
For me, I have to say that;
"Anyone that runs consistantly within 4-5 seconds of the track record, for their class, must go expert".
Case in point, Jimmy Brown 113am. Multiple wins in AMW and a bunch in unlimited w/some 2nds, on a 600,
and within 5 seconds of track records.
Which tracks is Jimmy within 5 seconds of lap records? 1? his home track? Just becuase someone is fast doesnt mean they have to leave right now. Other things go into it as well, little things like crashing and race craft. Its racing, some people are fast some people are slow. Should Jimmy go expert next year? Yeah, but its also his first year of real racing. thats how it works, you work hard to get fast and you get your year in the sun. Then you go expert, take your lickings for a year or two, and if you can try for another step into the spot light. A guy like you should go expert too, your consistently placing at the front end of the novices, you have been leading points all year, and you havent burned your bike down this year. :biggrin: You guys will get a bunch faster if you move up.
Quote from: Eye-p on June 23, 2009, 08:21:50 PM
Lots of issues here-
Should it be more difficult to become expert? Probably, but we then need to define difficult.
My first stint at racing was in the early 90's with WSMC. Not only did we have a points requirement, we also had to do a few days of cornerworking duty. So, you really had to show that you were willing to contribute to the health of the sport and club.
In addition, we had to have our race licences signed by 3 experts in good standing with the club. This helped to ensure that people were not assholes to each other- it created a sense of community.
In my opinion, being an expert is less about being able to run within 5 seconds of lap record pace, and more about being a predictable rider, who is not a danger to others. There are plenty of fast AM's that are totally erratic and out of control.
I would also say that if you continue to ride as you have this year, you will be worthy of your white plates. I will have no problem racing with you next year!
Jason
Well said my friend. Best statement yet.
Mark
I petitioned to stay AM this year, as Jigs pointed out. I know i know, i am a sandbagger. :)
I simply looked at the times i was running and the times experts were running and decided i wasn't ready. I didn't have a bad year last year, but not great either. I didn't win any championships, or really even come close. I did win one race but that was a bit of a fluke. I got 2 other podiums all year. One was at RA with only 3 bikes on the grid...so not sure that counts. :) I was actually going to take my bump, but i ended the year with a big crash that i felt fortunate to walk away from uninjured, and i really didn't know how i was going to be riding this year. Turns out i have picked up where i left off. But i am still not killing the AM field by any stretch.
I simply wrote CCS a letter explaining exactly why i was petitioning including the crash, laptimes and my performance index (it wasn't great) and i was allowed to stay am. I made a commitment to myself that if i started winning races all the time i would ask for a bump because i would feel bad. I really hope no one thinks i am trying to be a sandbagger looking for glory.
Will S.
187 am (midwest)
The old days, Novice, Amateur, Expert.
Jason, that means a bunch comming from a rider like you. Thanks! I guess I will see how things come together at the end of the year. Last year at the end I had a big speed jump so who knows.
Quote from: Eye-p on June 23, 2009, 08:21:50 PM
Lots of issues here-
Should it be more difficult to become expert? Probably, but we then need to define difficult.
My first stint at racing was in the early 90's with WSMC. Not only did we have a points requirement, we also had to do a few days of cornerworking duty. So, you really had to show that you were willing to contribute to the health of the sport and club.
In addition, we had to have our race licences signed by 3 experts in good standing with the club. This helped to ensure that people were not assholes to each other- it created a sense of community.
In my opinion, being an expert is less about being able to run within 5 seconds of lap record pace, and more about being a predictable rider, who is not a danger to others. There are plenty of fast AM's that are totally erratic and out of control.
I would also say that if you continue to ride as you have this year, you will be worthy of your white plates. I will have no problem racing with you next year!
Jason
Quote from: benprobst on June 23, 2009, 09:34:22 PM
Which tracks is Jimmy within 5 seconds of lap records? 1? his home track? Just becuase someone is fast doesnt mean they have to leave right now. Other things go into it as well, little things like crashing and race craft. Its racing, some people are fast some people are slow. Should Jimmy go expert next year? Yeah, but its also his first year of real racing. thats how it works, you work hard to get fast and you get your year in the sun. Then you go expert, take your lickings for a year or two, and if you can try for another step into the spot light. A guy like you should go expert too, your consistently placing at the front end of the novices, you have been leading points all year, and you havent burned your bike down this year. :biggrin: You guys will get a bunch faster if you move up.
WOW, a complement. Who knew??? Thanks Ben.
Yeah, I finally got some things worked out and made a huge turn-around...
But still, I have a ways to go.
As for Jimmy, he has been at it B4 and is blowing everyone away. The guy has skills.
While he hasn't made it to RA, he is killing it out there at HPT and GIR and collecting trophies and points.
He knows he should be expert but is enjoying the high-life in AM now.
The only reason I can think of that I'm in the lead in points is cause I am making all of the races and others are not. Shit, I am horable at HPT but still filling the spots.
Quote from: Noidly1 on June 23, 2009, 11:02:12 PM
Shit, I am horable at HPT but still filling the spots.
Please keep that turn #14 line at HPT going........ you make a good spotting point for the field coming onto the front straight. :kicknuts:
Noid, you do look like you're getting it more put together this year! :thumb:
Quote from: Burt Munro on June 23, 2009, 11:21:11 PM
Noid, you do look like you're getting it more put together this year! :thumb:
Hello, my name is Rick and I am a professional shit disturber....
and apparently I have had a psychological break of some sort and complimented someone....and in a thread that Ben Probst complimented someone in as well....(end of the world coming?)
Just trying to cover all the bases across the board.............. fair and balanced.
A jab here, a pat on the back there - keeping the ledger on an even plane.
I do still make an exception in your case however! :spank:
Quote from: Burt Munro on June 24, 2009, 12:51:16 AM
Just trying to cover all the bases across the board.............. fair and balanced.
A jab here, a pat on the back there - keeping the ledger on an even plane.
I do still make an exception in your case however! :spank:
there is the Rick Weaver I know! :biggrin:
Quote from: ktd on June 23, 2009, 03:43:36 PM
Do you think it should be harder to become an expert?
No, but it should be cheaper
Quote from: Court Jester on June 24, 2009, 10:00:09 AM
No, but it should be cheaper
Racing isn't cheap. But it can always be done cheaper.
Quote from: ktd on June 23, 2009, 04:30:19 PM
For me I'm just looking like I will get 400 points this year and thinking I am kind of not worthy of it.
If I race in a class with 5 entries versus a class with 30 is 400 points really the same? My last Ultra Lightweight race had 4 finishes, big deal I got second out of 4.
In one of my Supertwins race there were 4 or 5 people on 1000cc or greater the rest on SV 650's. Normally I am 3-5 seconds faster on my Duc than SV.
In Formula 40 at CMP I think we had 5 people.
Performance index takes care of some of this.. 2nd out of 4 riders is way lower PI than 1st out of 4. 2nd out of 30 is pretty close to 1st out of 30 so your points are adjusted down a bunch with few in the class.
PI doesn't apply to upgrade points, upgrade is raw points in ALL classes vs championships which are PI points in all classes that all riders can compete in, ie riders under 40 cannot compete in F40 so no rider can use F40 points for a championship bid however those points do count toward AM -> EX upgrade.
Look at what the Loudon Road Race series is doing. They have the 3 tier system and from what I heard works great.
Quote from: Whitebuell on June 24, 2009, 03:38:31 PM
Look at what the Loudon Road Race series is doing. They have the 3 tier system and from what I heard works great.
I guess Joel was paying attention to pretty much everything when he came to visit NH! LRRS (Loudon) has novice-amateur-expert, with upgrades based on a performance index, and grids based on year-to-date overall points total. (First grid of the year based on prior year's point total.) Not too many complaints with the system. It seems to encourage guys to get their feet wet in novice -- which is pretty tame, then learn how to race in amateur before putting it all together for expert.
On related topic, they also have wi-fi in the garages and wireless real-time lap times and running order display using software you can download from the series web site. At no additional cost. Wow!
Nate
At the end of 2007 I was on the bump list to Expert purely out of points. I never made a podium and a Championship was a joke but ran in a lot of races just about anything my 600 would qualify for . I thought about staying back in AM long and hard and decided that I would rather lose a race to every EX on the grid then lose to even one sandbaggin AM.
Quote from: benprobst on June 23, 2009, 09:34:22 PM
Which tracks is Jimmy within 5 seconds of lap records? 1? his home track? Just becuase someone is fast doesnt mean they have to leave right now. Other things go into it as well, little things like crashing and race craft. Its racing, some people are fast some people are slow. Should Jimmy go expert next year? Yeah, but its also his first year of real racing. thats how it works, you work hard to get fast and you get your year in the sun. Then you go expert, take your lickings for a year or two, and if you can try for another step into the spot light. A guy like you should go expert too, your consistently placing at the front end of the novices, you have been leading points all year, and you havent burned your bike down this year. :biggrin: You guys will get a bunch faster if you move up.
+1000, IMO, but more on that in a minute.
First, short answer to the original question, (again, IMO,) no.
Long answer:
What, exactly, is so easy about going to Expert? True, I already have enough points to do so, but only after competing in the (nearly) complete first half of the Midwest schedule. Most everyone here knows what this requires, but I'll give a brief recap:
9 days off work (no pay) (so far, and I'll be off 4 more next week for HPT)
2000.00 + entry fees
1900.00 + tires
bike prep
bike repair (2 crashes, again, so far)
travel expense
gear expense (see crashes)
travel time
etc, etc, not to mention the additional interest I'll accrue on the credfit card, or the other events on the summer social calendar I've forgone, and definitely not mentioning the vast amount of good will and patience which my wife has been displaying (again, so far).
So, again, I ask, "How is it easy?"
I know I'm still coming to grips with the scope of it, because I sure thought it was going to be a breeze; go to the track, win races, win championships, go Expert. Well, I certainly had no idea how much time and effort this would take, and as mentioned, we're not even half done, which means I could have a bad get-off next week, or the race after, or whenever, and everything I've done so far would be completely for naught.
See, the thing I've figured out is that it takes way more than going fast to be an Expert, or at least, a successful one. 4 races in, (+3 weekends last year) and I'm learning something new every day. Racing strategies, organizational skills, tire choices, staying calm under pressure, it goes on and on. I'd have to say that I still feel as if I'm in a very steep part of the learning curve. I considered the pros and cons of petitioning to go expert after 9 out of 9 wins the first weekend at HPT, but, in retrospect, I'm happy as hell that I didn't, because I wasn't anywhere near ready. Sure, I probably could have made some podiums already, but I feel that I'll make a much better Ex after having run a full season of Am ( however long that season ends up being), because I'm learning how to RACE, as opposed to just going fast.
And again, just my humble opinion, this shit ain't easy at all. (But it's mostly fun as hell...)
Oh, and for the record, I now have the points, so whatever happens from here on out, I'll have white plates next year.
Which really sucks, because the yellow plate looks better on my bikes, what with it being the only piece of bodywork I run up there and all..
I always thought the objective is to get to expert level. I don't believe that finishing on the podium is a fair gauge of what an expert should be. There have been many amateur riders that can be fast but man are they dangerous, riding beyond their limit and soon to crash.
In the end I believe it is better to ride alongside an expert. Currently there are a lot of amateurs that have been riding as amateur for some time and are extremely capable of riding with the experts.
Mark
Quote from: skidMARK on July 01, 2009, 03:43:01 PM
I always thought the objective is to get to expert level. I don't believe that finishing on the podium is a fair gauge of what an expert should be. There have been many amateur riders that can be fast but man are they dangerous, riding beyond their limit and soon to crash.
In the end I believe it is better to ride alongside an expert. Currently there are a lot of amateurs that have been riding as amateur for some time and are extremely capable of riding with the experts.
Mark
Can't it be ONE of the objectives, as opposed to THE objective? Otherwise, why even bother with Am. championships, or anything other than points?
And yes, some Amateurs are dangerous, but there are many with a lot of experience as a result of track days, and these riders can be as safe as they are fast. Still, a season worth of race experience at the Am. level can pay huge dividends. I rode track days for 4 years before racing (don't hold it against me, I never knew I'd someday race), and thus was pretty fast right out of the gate. However, I'm even (and consistently) faster now. I don't know that I'd be able to further develop my riding skills as quickly if I had to also learn everything else there is to learn while riding with experts. Of course, it's better to RIDE with an expert, but an appropriate amount of time at the amateur level allows the opportunity to assimilate in a slightly less competetive and stressful environment, or at least, only as competetive and stressful an environment as you make it..
how about having qualifing. that woould put all the dinks in the back and the fast guys in the front. problem solved.
Why even bother with Am championships? A championship gives an incentive for all the hard work and time invloved in winning a championship. I have heard it said many time, "when two bikes are on the track at the same time it's a race". We race because we enjoy it. If you don't then it is time to stop, you are just endangering yourself and the next guy.
Doing track days have been the most dangerous times for me. Racing, while it invloves quite a bit of danger allows me to be on track with 20 other guys of similar skill be it Expert or Amateur. On a track day I don't know the competency of the other guy as I come up on them or in the case of my lightweight bike if the guy passing can accomplish the pass with some competency. Track days can teach a lot, but for me racing teaches so much more.
Mark
Quote from: skidMARK on July 01, 2009, 08:23:36 PM
Why even bother with Am championships? A championship gives an incentive for all the hard work and time invloved in winning a championship.
But if the goal is to bump to expert, why have am championships? Am championships establish an incentive that conflicts with that goal. If we race because we enjoy it, why would we need an incentive?
As far as trackdays/racing goes - I'd say I'm learning different things racing than I learned in trackdays. At trackdays, I learned to go 'fast' while in control and 'safe'. Racing, I'm learning to stretch my skills to make a pass, I'm learning how to ride tactically to keep people behind me, I'm learning to strategize to match my strengths against another rider's weaknesses. I'm glad I didn't have to learn both sets of skills at once.
It's not that I need an incentive, buit it is nice that it is there. The goal for me was to get to that expert level no matter what color my plate is. Racing gives a measure of how closely I get to that goal. The championship is a product of the determination and appropriation of skills required to get there. For the most part I have done all my maintenance, and learning of skills. Albeit slow it is for me very gratifying that I have accomplished what I have.
If I never had those goals and incentives I could have stayed as a track day rider myself. There are different skills to be had here. You can be a fast rider on a slow bike or a slow rider on a fast bike.
Mark
Gotcha, Mark.
I don't really have an answer for the original question, the outcome of the current system most orgs use is not very good in my opinion. You have very fast amateurs that should be experts, and very slow experts that don't have anyone to compete with. However, there isn't really a perfect solution so until someone thinks of one, I guess this works.
I'll explain why I would rather spend a season as a fast amateur than a mid-pack expert. I'll warn you, it's selfish, and I don't care if anyone has a problem with it because it's what allows me to race. I'm not going to feel sorry for white plates that I pass from the second wave because if I wasn't a front-running amateur, I simply couldn't afford to do what I love.
I'll use one weekend as an example. The first BHF weekend this year I did six sprint races. I had three wins, two seconds, and a third. I made about $800 in tire money and $150 in UNLGP plus some free oil and Vortex certs. I spent $380 on tires and $300 or something in fees. So add in the pump gas, the gas to get there and back, and the gate fee, and I got to race for free.
If I had done 6 sprints as an expert, I would have spent over $1000 and while I might have gone a little faster and learned a little more, it simply wouldn't be possible with how much money I'm making right now. So should I apologize for this or get in as many weekends as I can this year and hope to hit the expert ranks with a bunch of experience and hopefully some more speed next year?
I don't feel like I've accomplished that much by winning an amateur race, but I'm willing to put my ultimate goal of expert racing off for a year to have fun and get the experience. I understand why some people get annoyed about guys that think amateur championships are important and stay amateur to be winners for a while, but for some of us, it's purely financial.
Quote from: R1Racer99 on July 03, 2009, 01:06:06 AMI'll use one weekend as an example. The first BHF weekend this year I did six sprint races. I had three wins, two seconds, and a third. I made about $800 in tire money and $150 in UNLGP plus some free oil and Vortex certs. I spent $380 on tires and $300 or something in fees. So add in the pump gas, the gas to get there and back, and the gate fee, and I got to race for free.
...If I had done 6 sprints as an expert, I would have spent over $1000 and while I might have gone a little faster and learned a little more, it simply wouldn't be possible with how much money I'm making right now.
...I understand why some people get annoyed about guys that think amateur championships are important and stay amateur to be winners for a while, but for some of us, it's purely financial.
That right there is a perfect explanation of why Amateur Payouts and Contingency should not exist in the 1st place and why Experts should be the only one receiving them! (I've been preaching this FOREVER!!!!!!)
The way the system is set-up currently it encourages people to stay Amateur and gives little to no incentive financially for all but the fastest Experts (evidence is in the ratio of short vs long term non front running Experts racing every year). New racers are going to race whether there's payouts of some type or not (because it's new and exciting), but that's not so true of the Experts. There are alot of Racers who for one reason or another will rarely or even never finish Top 3 as an Expert, if you can't provide some type of incentives for that majority of Expert racers to strive toward than you get the results that we see every season - Experts leaving racing. Amateur status is purely a temporary stepping stone, I can't even begin to fathom why there should be more than trophies being awarded at that level?
I think one of the most beneficial things that could be done to encourage racers to stay in this sport is to take all the Amateur Contingency and Payouts and move them into the Expert ranks so the payouts could be more wide spread and even deeper into the fields to provide some type of incentive to race toward for those who will never be Top 3 as an Expert (especially in races against current and former AMA Pro's). But I also understand the main reason this won't happen is because the Contingency sponsers are using a marketing scheme to create brand loyaly as soon as possible in a Racers career by offering Contingency to Amateurs. (in comparison this is the same reason alot of companies offer free or much cheaper products to some College students, to create brand loyalty for when those students eventually leave College and will then pay full price for the products they became accustomed to using - sad but true how people are manipulated every day and many don't even realize it!)
I agree. I don't know if it would work or not or what it would do to the current structure, but finding a way for the fast experts who can't compete with pros to be able to afford it would be great. Unless I find a much better paying job or drop 3 seconds by next year, I'll probably have one year as an expert to try my best and that really sucks.
i thought the reason we raced was for tthe fun of it. i did well in 06 i could have gone expert on points but asked henery to hold me back a year on the premise the i would not be a podium nuisance . big mistake i did win 3 races in 07 and then promptly totaled my body probably will never get to expert now .and maybe stuck with track days and team owner with skidmark .the hold back was i did not want to be a back marker that everyone complains about .which probably would not have happened . as far as rather ride with experts riding with a certain one this weekend cost us a foot peg and a water pump cover not to mention your paint job. the other thing is we all want to win and if you grid every weekend with 50 young kids in the middle of the pack you never going to get any points. you got to pay for next years races now to get on the front row.if all you want to do is go expert and your not good enough to battle talent and money every weekend then go lightweight. there are plenty of classes to ride in at the best of their ability and you would not have to buy tires but every couple of weekends. i still think a middle class for the slow experts and fast amateurs can ride sometimes you get old and beat up as an expert.right gino look at us bob benny me you theirs a bunch of us out there that are tired and broken but still want to race. remember this is all just for fun.
had to cut the last reply duty called i was siting in the hospital bath room peeing on the floor because the cut up leg has to be stretched out thinking was this worth it and the answer is yes i just want to race again i don't care if i'm in the back on an ex 500.just riding side by side with someone I know that by no means I have the worst injury and if i was 20 yrs younger i could bounce back. but i was realized what are we complaining about .i complain as much as anyone but when your faced with finality of career ending injury racing griding in the front the middle or the back dosen't matter i know the guys out there broken like me or worse think the same thing .most guys seem to quit after they either scare themselves or take a trip to the HP.then they tell everyone that their out of money when it's the wife worried that they might become widows so if racing is too expensive drop down a a couple of classes or go buy a play station 3 .we got a fast guy in our class he keeps an extra set of gear all the same incase he crashes if he does he gjves the gear away and orders more the next day so his wife doesen't find out. these are the premo drugs nerve block and oxy something to bad they took my morphine this morning so excuse my writing
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Quote from: GSXR RACER MIKE on July 03, 2009, 12:42:22 PM
That right there is a perfect explanation of why Amateur Payouts and Contingency should not exist in the 1st place and why Experts should be the only one receiving them! (I've been preaching this FOREVER!!!!!!)
The way the system is set-up currently it encourages people to stay Amateur and gives little to no incentive financially for all but the fastest Experts (evidence is in the ratio of short vs long term non front running Experts racing every year). New racers are going to race whether there's payouts of some type or not (because it's new and exciting), but that's not so true of the Experts. There are alot of Racers who for one reason or another will rarely or even never finish Top 3 as an Expert, if you can't provide some type of incentives for that majority of Expert racers to strive toward than you get the results that we see every season - Experts leaving racing. Amateur status is purely a temporary stepping stone, I can't even begin to fathom why there should be more than trophies being awarded at that level?
I think one of the most beneficial things that could be done to encourage racers to stay in this sport is to take all the Amateur Contingency and Payouts and move them into the Expert ranks so the payouts could be more wide spread and even deeper into the fields to provide some type of incentive to race toward for those who will never be Top 3 as an Expert (especially in races against current and former AMA Pro's). But I also understand the main reason this won't happen is because the Contingency sponsers are using a marketing scheme to create brand loyaly as soon as possible in a Racers career by offering Contingency to Amateurs. (in comparison this is the same reason alot of companies offer free or much cheaper products to some College students, to create brand loyalty for when those students eventually leave College and will then pay full price for the products they became accustomed to using - sad but true how people are manipulated every day and many don't even realize it!)
Hmm. Disagree with you there. Some of us have no intention of staying amateur, and we expend just as much time, effort, and money as experts, so why shouldn't we be able to defray our expenses with contingency money? The payouts are generally less for any given amateur class vs. expert; doesn't this even things out at least a bit? Racing is expensive no matter what class you're in, or what your status is. I'm guessing that if contingency were eliminated for amateurs, less people would be tempted to go racing. Also, I think that the majority of racers race mostly for the fun of it anyway. Hell, if I wanted to ride relatively inexpensively, I could be a trackday coach....
Make it harder and give all the contingency to the expert field. If it is too costly to race then race a cheaper bike. Here goes my smite column.
Mark
how about do like scca and ihra nhra nascar and every other sanctioning body and do two or three races have three or four riders sign off on your license and shit can the whole amateur class then everyone can quit complaining .and if your not good enough do another year of track days
no amateurs just qalifying ? we already have the time sheets just use them . and it might be even safer fast guys up front slow guys in back and if you have a crappy weekend then your out of luck we already have 2 wave starts with slow guys in the back anyway the only thing you might have is a ama type fast to slow ratio in the liter classes. but then the promotors would not get the working capital up front. i think i said that before. so it will never happen
Thought I'd toss my 2c in as one of LRRS's Novices.
I don't have an opinion either way on weather or not it should be more or less difficult to bump up to Expert from Amateur. I'm kinda glad right now that despite having the needed index, number of races under my belt, desire to bump and scoring a podium or two a weekend I'm not allowed to bump, as my lap times could be dangerous amongst the Amateurs. A 1:32 vs low 1:20s just isn't a good idea. In Production Twins it'd be closer, but I'd still be on track with much faster machines.
That said, I do take issue with the idea that only Experts should get contingency, championships, etc. In LRRS the only thing Novices get officially are trophies, class points aren't tallied. There are only a couple places where we can earn contingency. (Thank you Bridgestone!) Our races all run separate, Ams and Exs run together as separate waves in their classes. As a result, novices tend to get discouraged if they don't show up and immediately drop Am or better times, as the group feels like a bunch of also-rans. Strip away what little we do get, and I think you would see less showing up to grind through the Novice rank to Am, and eventually Expert. (I've joked about trying to organize a Novice 'Dash for Respect' to follow the 'Dash for Cash' each weekend...)
The trophies, what little contingency we get, etc are all teases, enticers, racer crack that help provide a reason for pushing on the track beyond bumping. If you're just riding to bump, your placement no longer important because there's absolutely nothing on the line, you're effectively running an extra practice. If I want extra practice, I'll do track days and get LOTS more track time. Being able to brag about a win, show off the 'wood', and just maybe get a lil kickback from a mfg or two are strong motivators to keep hammering. Yeah, it's just a Novice win, but damn if it didn't feel like real racing to us?
Quote from: Farmboy on July 04, 2009, 12:18:15 AMHmm. Disagree with you there. Some of us have no intention of staying amateur, and we expend just as much time, effort, and money as experts, so why shouldn't we be able to defray our expenses with contingency money? The payouts are generally less for any given amateur class vs. expert; doesn't this even things out at least a bit? Racing is expensive no matter what class you're in, or what your status is. I'm guessing that if contingency were eliminated for amateurs, less people would be tempted to go racing. Also, I think that the majority of racers race mostly for the fun of it anyway. Hell, if I wanted to ride relatively inexpensively, I could be a trackday coach....
Most racers only last 3 or 4 years in CCS (I think of them as 'generations'), currently we're in what would be about the 4th generation of racers I've seen since I started racing in '96. Sure there's a small group of us who have stayed for a decade or more, and a group of 5 - 9 year racers as well, but there's still a definite loss of racers that generally happens by the end of their 1st, 2nd, or sometimes 3rd Expert season (usually their 3rd or 4th season of racing in total). There's generally 3 main reasons people leave racing: injury, life style change (for example kids, marriage, or job), and financial - which is my focus here, how to stop the loss of Expert racers due to the financial aspect.
For me I've made the choice of not racing the 1st 1/2 to 2/3 of the 2009 season to persue taking my part-time business I own to the next level and have now left my job of 21 years to persue full-time self-employment. That choice to temporarily suspend my racing was because racing is ALL financial loss for me, there's no financial payback what-so-ever (but even though I'm a back of the pack Expert I would still rather invest my money into a racing organization much more than a track day org any day). For me to get back up to the Top 5 I would have to spend 2-3 times the money per event that I have been in the last 5 years, yet the financial pay back would be minimal with how the system is set-up currently.
Quote from: GSXR RACER MIKE on July 03, 2009, 12:42:22 PMAmateur status is purely a temporary stepping stone......
That is probably my biggest justification for Expert only contingency and purse money, Amateur status is a stepping stone - Expert status is a destination for most (since that's where even the Pro's come to race Regionally). I've read how people are saying there wouldn't be a goal to ride toward as an Amateur if there wasn't any Amateur Contingency and/or purse money, yet do you think that's any different for an Expert? If Expert was the only place where you could get financial rewards don't you think that would now be the goal as an Amateur - to improve your skills enough so you could go Expert and get some of those rewards as well? For those of you who are not Expert yet and disagree with what I'm saying, talk to me about this in 5 years and let's see if your opinion is still the same (though statistically you won't still be racing by then!). :thumb:
Hey Kurlon,
I hope that you can sift through my sarcasms on my other posts. This has been a long debated subject but it is always good to hear anothers perspective. I haven't forgotten where I come from and the effort it took for me to gain whatever I have gained.
Contingency I believe is up to the manufacturer or company that want to support and to whomever they choose to support. I am glad that they do. But there are always some racers that stay to cherry pick. I must commend Stefano Mesa from the Flroida region. He has become a fast learner at this club level of racing and within mid season switched from Amateur to Expert status. He is a mere teenager riding a Moriwaki but has shown some real speed. There are many others though that languish in the amateur ranks while others that are slower move up to compete with the experts. I commend those folks for moving up.
Speed of course is not the end all gauge for being expert. I can understand the difference in closing speeds of two different bikes. My Ducati 800 is a faster bike than say a 125GP bike, but there are tracks such as Jennings where the 125GP bike will absolutely trounce the Ducati 800 as far as lap times. The difference for me between expert and amateur is not speed, not lap times, but the skill and ability to make the right decision on track in many different situations. There are many racers that I don't mind close racing against and then others that I just don't care to. I hope that I am not one of the latter for others.
An expert for me should be one that offers confidence to his opponent when being passed, that he/she will be predictable and not be dangerous when being passed or passing me.
Mark
Quote from: GSXR RACER MIKE on July 05, 2009, 12:11:55 PM
which is my focus here, how to stop the loss of Expert racers due to the financial aspect.
Racer Mike, may I ask you why this is your focus? Is there a lack of expert racers in your classes? Would you personally benefit from more expert racers in your classes? I'm trying to understand your position on the subject a little better.
My understanding is that most of the sponsorship money comes from product manufacturers, not necessarily CCS. I'm taking a wild guess here, but I think the main motive behind the cash/product sponsorships are for advertising reasons. If I made product X, I'd like to have top amateurs and top experts using product X in order to get contingency, thus pushing it to all their friends in the process and providing advertising. I think (haven't made any real calculations or market research) that strategy would give me more exposure and market penetration than having just top experts advertising product X.
So if any of this holds true, why should my for-profit company care about your focus of stopping "the loss of Expert racers due to the financial aspect"?
While I agree that amateurs (myself included #280) should have fewer financial incentives to be/stay amateurs and more incentives to move to expert status, I don't think that scenario is as profitable for the companies that offer sponsorships in order to gain market share and advertising exposure.
mike with electronic timing scoring at every track which fla was the last and experts and amateurs on the track at the same time in most classes do we need both anymore .all of it could be combined and stream lined then and if your good out of the box you are rewarded and if you suck after 5 years your not. my first race at daytona years ago was thightweight 40 and croly passed me on his 750 heavyweight 40 bike with about 40mph differance that was the worst i.ve been scared .(now i watch for the leader of the first wave to avoid that)the point is why have 2 classes at all if we are all on the track at the same time .we want to use every bit of new technology we can buy but still run on a grid sheet designed in the 70's and if you can't make practice or have problems to bad i've had plenty of sorry weekends but that's the way it is.
Oh, btw mike good luck on your busniess i've been self empolyed for 6 years and as much as i threaten to quit i don't know if i could work for anyone else.
Speaking to the issues I see most of you talking about. It seems to me that track days are really hurting racing. You go to any track day and it is sold out. My racing grids were terrible this weekend. Supertwins this sunday had 3 racers. I think CCS needs to team up with some track day orgs to try and get more people racing. Find some way to attract people to come over and race. Even the money is going to the track days. Have you seen the sponsors for NESBA? They are a non profit and they got parts, tires, trailers, Yamaha, ...... somone is doing something right in dealing with those companies.
geez, don't bring NESBA up around here
I think that there may be people doing trackdays who may have 'raced' in the past when they wanted the track time rather than the wheel-to-wheel competition. They are very different (or if they're not, you're not doing one or the other right!). A good race is like a weird blend of competition and cooperation - you're trying not to punt each other give one another racing room, but you're not always polite, and sometimes that 'racing room' is very definately 'behind me'. You don't always know what's going to happen or what the other person is going to do, there's enough risk to spice it up, and it's for something, even if it's just bragging rights. A track day _should_ emphasize the cooperation - yeah, one might be faster than the other, but both are riding their own ride and trying to stay out of each other's way. Some people just might not be into the cut-and-thrust of a race, and I'm glad that track days are there for the other side of it.
It might also be that people look at laptimes and decide not to race because they're off the front pace. I try to encourage people to look further in the pack, to look at who they can race. The good thing for racing is that track days give people an opportunity to learn how to control the machine at speed before they get on the track - I think that makes racing safer.
I also have to say, at a track day, it's nice to know what the schedule is going to be. It takes quite an incident to know things off.
Supertwins is going to be a lighter grid because the machines aren't as popular. The state of the economy is probably not helping, either - even middleweight grids are down from last year.
I find racing far less scary than track days.
I don't find much difference as far as how safe I feel - either way, I'm the biggest risk to myself. In races, I have to be more careful of putting myself in the way of a rider I'm not sure I can trust. I learned to spot flakiness at track days, but in a NESBA A session, I don't often have to worry about it.
this debate has been the proverbial chicken versus egg here.years back i sold tires at Jennings and rode almost every weekend for about a year i even lead josh day around when he was young .it taught me the track to be smooth to think about the other riders and to pacify any aggression.but not to be fast and calculating. my first practice as a racer i had to throw pacfisin out the window. i've realized also that i.ve never ran to 100% of my ability. if i want to go ride around eat hotdog take long lunch leave the hotel late leave the track early to avoid the drive thru learn a new track i do a track day. if i want to go as fast as my ability allows me, crash, tear up parts, loose sleep ,see my friends, spend more money than i figured i go racing. that seems the difference between the two for me. when you sell tires at a track day the racers flip their tires and the track day guys buy new ones.
Quote from: ktd on July 06, 2009, 03:24:18 PM
I find racing far less scary than track days.
I couldn't have said it any better.
Quote from: ktd on July 06, 2009, 02:52:23 PM
Speaking to the issues I see most of you talking about. It seems to me that track days are really hurting racing. You go to any track day and it is sold out. My racing grids were terrible this weekend. Supertwins this sunday had 3 racers. I think CCS needs to team up with some track day orgs to try and get more people racing. Find some way to attract people to come over and race. Even the money is going to the track days. Have you seen the sponsors for NESBA? They are a non profit and they got parts, tires, trailers, Yamaha, ...... somone is doing something right in dealing with those companies.
Here in Minnesota, we only have one trackday provider left and it's been hard to generate enough interest to make a trackday profitable. Two trackday orgs. have gone out of business in the last few years. However, the CRA turn-out this year has been great, for example, my middleweight supersport race at BIR in June had 32 novice entries, three weeks earlier at BHF it had 16 I think. I'm worried about spending a bunch of money and not having grids big enough to get contingency with CCS. I've had grids with less than 6 bikes which is how many I need to have the chance to win $175 so that's pretty frustrating. Again, without contingency, I couldn't race this year.
One other stat that might explain why more people up here race and less do trackdays. I signed up for 8 sprints at the opening HPT double sprint weekend. I think the total was $570, something like that. The last CRA double sprint weekend I signed up for 8 sprints and the total was $225. I'm not complaining about the prices, but maybe that has something to do with it. I know I'd be going to HPT this weekend if I didn't have to spend $500+ for entries.
I don't think it should be any harder to get the bump to expert, but I do think that one of the problems is the petition letter. In all honesty- I can see someone doing a bunch of races and getting points, and at the end of the season- petitioning to stay AM for another year if they are new to the scene. Unless you are on the box all the time, I don't see that as a huge issue. What I DO see as a huge issue, is those folks who petition a second time.....and CCS lets them stay AM....again. That is some horse doo-doo IMHO.
He said "doo-doo" :lmao:
Quote from: alexm on July 06, 2009, 12:42:15 PMSo if any of this holds true, why should my for-profit company care about your focus of stopping "the loss of Expert racers due to the financial aspect"?
EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Society as a whole (and unfortunately many businesses) have become so focused on what feels good or produces results in the short term that many have lost focus of the bigger picture. An EXCELLENT example of short term thinking by businesses here in the USA is having their products made outside of this country
purely because of the profit (thanks massively to the dumbass that ran this country in the late 90's and opened the door, and ultimately encouraged, a massive exodus of jobs leaving this country for China and Mexico all in the name of profit). Look at what has resulted from that, we have a massive influx of cheap low quality products that often times fail very prematurely, and an exponential failure of the manufacturing base in this country because of it. Fortunately some of the work has slowly started to come back to the USA because costs have finally started to rise for things to be made outside of the USA, but it's still unfortunate that this move is almost entirely due to the profit margin and not due to the inferior quality of many of the foreign made products coming out of Mexico and especially China. When a country doesn't have products to sell, the effects of recessions are greatly extended - welcome to what we are seeing now in the USA.
In racing, Contingency is one of those things that could make the difference between long term customers/racers and short term customers/racers. From what I've seen most Amateurs are looking to see what the fast Experts are using for products on their bikes and many follow that lead if they have Contingency programs. If Experts were the only ones recieving Contingency I bet the Amateurs would still be looking to see what the Experts are using for products and which companies will most likely be paying Contingency when they turn Expert as well. Again, I can't emphasize this enough, Amateur status is purely a temporary stop along the way in racing (generally 1-3 seasons), yet companies are thinking short term and trying to create immediate customers as opposed to long term ones.
Quote from: GSXR RACER MIKE on July 07, 2009, 11:19:31 AM
If Experts were the only ones recieving Contingency I bet the Amateurs would still be looking to see what the Experts are using for products and which companies will most likely be paying Contingency when they turn Expert as well.
You might be right, but it looks like very few companies are willing to make the same bet as you. Amateurs provide a "steady" stream of new customers. What's the chance of a 5 year Dunlop running expert racer switching over to Michelin tires? I'm sure many companies offering amateur contingency programs are trying to build customer loyalty from an early stage and gain market share at the same time. I see nothing wrong with that plan from a short - long term perspective.
Quote from: GSXR RACER MIKE on July 07, 2009, 11:19:31 AMAgain, I can't emphasize this enough, Amateur status is purely a temporary stop along the way in racing
Hehe, I wish my competition would come to temporary stops during the races... :cheers:
Quote from: GSXR RACER MIKE on July 07, 2009, 11:19:31 AM
...yet companies are thinking short term and trying to create immediate customers as opposed to long term ones.
I really don't think that's true, I think they're trying to cover as much ground as possible in terms of units sold and advertising exposure.
Maybe more people will go EX to be able to race AMA rounds. i wonder how this will workout next year
http://roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=37248
im with ronix. some guys need to move up