Should it be harder to become an expert?

[roadracer162]

I always thought the objective is to get to expert level. I don't believe that finishing on the podium is a fair gauge of what an expert should be. There have been many amateur riders that can be fast but man are they dangerous, riding beyond their limit and soon to crash.

In the end I believe it is better to ride alongside an expert. Currently there are a lot of amateurs that have been riding as amateur for some time and are extremely capable of riding with the experts.

Mark

[Farmboy]

I always thought the objective is to get to expert level. I don't believe that finishing on the podium is a fair gauge of what an expert should be. There have been many amateur riders that can be fast but man are they dangerous, riding beyond their limit and soon to crash.

In the end I believe it is better to ride alongside an expert. Currently there are a lot of amateurs that have been riding as amateur for some time and are extremely capable of riding with the experts.

Mark

Can't it be ONE of the objectives, as opposed to THE objective? Otherwise, why even bother with Am. championships, or anything other than points?

And yes, some Amateurs are dangerous, but there are many with a lot of experience as a result of track days, and these riders can be as safe as they are fast. Still, a season worth of race experience at the Am. level can pay huge dividends. I rode track days for 4 years before racing (don't hold it against me, I never knew I'd someday race), and thus was pretty fast right out of the gate. However, I'm even (and consistently) faster now. I don't know that I'd be able to further develop my riding skills as quickly if I had to also learn everything else there is to learn while riding with experts. Of course, it's better to RIDE with an expert, but an appropriate amount of time at the amateur level allows the opportunity to assimilate in a slightly less competetive and stressful environment, or at least, only as competetive and stressful an environment as you make it..

[ducnut916]

how about having qualifing. that woould put all the dinks in the back and the fast guys in the front. problem solved.

[roadracer162]

Why even bother with Am championships? A championship gives an incentive for all the hard work and time invloved in winning a championship. I have heard it said many time, "when two bikes are on the track at the same time it's a race". We race because we enjoy it. If you don't then it is time to stop, you are just endangering yourself and the next guy.

Doing track days have been the most dangerous times for me. Racing, while it invloves quite a bit of danger allows me to be on track with 20 other guys of similar skill be it Expert or Amateur. On a track day I don't know the competency of the other guy as I come up on them or in the case of my lightweight bike if the guy passing can accomplish the pass with some competency. Track days can teach a lot, but for me racing teaches so much more.

Mark

[danch]

Why even bother with Am championships? A championship gives an incentive for all the hard work and time invloved in winning a championship.

But if the goal is to bump to expert, why have am championships? Am championships establish an incentive that conflicts with that goal. If we race because we enjoy it, why would we need an incentive?

As far as trackdays/racing goes - I'd say I'm learning different things racing than I learned in trackdays. At trackdays, I learned to go 'fast' while in control and 'safe'. Racing, I'm learning to stretch my skills to make a pass, I'm learning how to ride tactically to keep people behind me, I'm learning to strategize to match my strengths against another rider's weaknesses. I'm glad I didn't have to learn both sets of skills at once.

[roadracer162]

It's not that I need an incentive, buit it is nice that it is there. The goal for me was to get to that expert level no matter what color my plate is. Racing gives a measure of how closely I get to that goal. The championship is a product of the determination and appropriation of skills required to get there. For the most part I have done all my maintenance, and learning of skills. Albeit slow it is for me very gratifying that I have accomplished what I have.

If I never had those goals and incentives I could have stayed as a track day rider myself. There are different skills to be had here. You can be a fast rider on a slow bike or a slow rider on a fast bike.

Mark

[danch]

Gotcha, Mark.

[R1Racer99]

I don't really have an answer for the original question, the outcome of the current system most orgs use is not very good in my opinion. You have very fast amateurs that should be experts, and very slow experts that don't have anyone to compete with. However, there isn't really a perfect solution so until someone thinks of one, I guess this works.

I'll explain why I would rather spend a season as a fast amateur than a mid-pack expert. I'll warn you, it's selfish, and I don't care if anyone has a problem with it because it's what allows me to race. I'm not going to feel sorry for white plates that I pass from the second wave because if I wasn't a front-running amateur, I simply couldn't afford to do what I love.

I'll use one weekend as an example. The first BHF weekend this year I did six sprint races. I had three wins, two seconds, and a third. I made about $800 in tire money and $150 in UNLGP plus some free oil and Vortex certs. I spent $380 on tires and $300 or something in fees. So add in the pump gas, the gas to get there and back, and the gate fee, and I got to race for free.

If I had done 6 sprints as an expert, I would have spent over $1000 and while I might have gone a little faster and learned a little more, it simply wouldn't be possible with how much money I'm making right now. So should I apologize for this or get in as many weekends as I can this year and hope to hit the expert ranks with a bunch of experience and hopefully some more speed next year?

I don't feel like I've accomplished that much by winning an amateur race, but I'm willing to put my ultimate goal of expert racing off for a year to have fun and get the experience. I understand why some people get annoyed about guys that think amateur championships are important and stay amateur to be winners for a while, but for some of us, it's purely financial.

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

I'll use one weekend as an example. The first BHF weekend this year I did six sprint races. I had three wins, two seconds, and a third. I made about $800 in tire money and $150 in UNLGP plus some free oil and Vortex certs. I spent $380 on tires and $300 or something in fees. So add in the pump gas, the gas to get there and back, and the gate fee, and I got to race for free.

...If I had done 6 sprints as an expert, I would have spent over $1000 and while I might have gone a little faster and learned a little more, it simply wouldn't be possible with how much money I'm making right now.

...I understand why some people get annoyed about guys that think amateur championships are important and stay amateur to be winners for a while, but for some of us, it's purely financial.

That right there is a perfect explanation of why Amateur Payouts and Contingency should not exist in the 1st place and why Experts should be the only one receiving them! (I've been preaching this FOREVER!!!!!!)

The way the system is set-up currently it encourages people to stay Amateur and gives little to no incentive financially for all but the fastest Experts (evidence is in the ratio of short vs long term non front running Experts racing every year). New racers are going to race whether there's payouts of some type or not (because it's new and exciting), but that's not so true of the Experts. There are alot of Racers who for one reason or another will rarely or even never finish Top 3 as an Expert, if you can't provide some type of incentives for that majority of Expert racers to strive toward than you get the results that we see every season - Experts leaving racing. Amateur status is purely a temporary stepping stone, I can't even begin to fathom why there should be more than trophies being awarded at that level?

I think one of the most beneficial things that could be done to encourage racers to stay in this sport is to take all the Amateur Contingency and Payouts and move them into the Expert ranks so the payouts could be more wide spread and even deeper into the fields to provide some type of incentive to race toward for those who will never be Top 3 as an Expert (especially in races against current and former AMA Pro's). But I also understand the main reason this won't happen is because the Contingency sponsers are using a marketing scheme to create brand loyaly as soon as possible in a Racers career by offering Contingency to Amateurs. (in comparison this is the same reason alot of companies offer free or much cheaper products to some College students, to create brand loyalty for when those students eventually leave College and will then pay full price for the products they became accustomed to using - sad but true how people are manipulated every day and many don't even realize it!)

[R1Racer99]

I agree. I don't know if it would work or not or what it would do to the current structure, but finding a way for the fast experts who can't compete with pros to be able to afford it would be great. Unless I find a much better paying job or drop 3 seconds by next year, I'll probably have one year as an expert to try my best and that really sucks.

[Ducmarc]

i thought the reason we raced was for tthe fun of it. i did well in 06 i could have gone expert on points but asked henery to hold me back a year on the premise the i would not be a podium nuisance . big mistake i did win 3 races in 07 and then promptly totaled my body probably will never get to expert now .and maybe stuck with track days and team owner with skidmark .the hold back was i did not want to be a back marker  that everyone complains about .which probably would not have happened . as far as rather ride with experts riding with a certain one  this weekend cost us a foot peg and a water pump cover not to mention your paint job. the other thing is we all want to win and if you grid every weekend with 50 young kids in the middle of the pack you never going to get any points. you got to pay for next years races now to get on the front row.if all you want to do is go expert and your not good enough to battle talent and money every weekend then go lightweight. there are plenty of classes to ride in at the best of their ability and you would not have to buy tires but every couple of weekends. i still think a middle class for the slow experts and fast amateurs can ride sometimes you  get old and beat up  as an expert.right gino look at us bob benny me you theirs a bunch of us out there that are tired and broken but still want to race. remember this is all just for fun.

[Ducmarc]

had to cut the last reply duty called i was siting in the hospital bath room peeing on the floor because the cut up leg has to be stretched out thinking was this worth it and the answer is yes i just want to race again i don't care if i'm in the back on an ex 500.just riding side by side with someone I know that by no means I have the worst injury and if i was 20 yrs younger i could bounce back. but i was realized what are we complaining about .i complain as much as anyone but when your faced with finality of career ending injury racing  griding in the front the middle or the back dosen't matter i know the guys out there broken like me or worse think the same thing .most guys seem to quit after they either scare themselves or take a trip to the HP.then they tell everyone that their out of money when it's the wife worried that they might become widows so if racing is too expensive drop down a a couple of classes or go buy a play station 3 .we got a fast guy in our class he keeps an extra set of gear all the same incase he crashes if he does he gjves the gear away and orders more the next day so his wife  doesen't find out.  these are the premo drugs nerve block and  oxy something to bad they took my morphine this morning so excuse my writing