:preachon:
I know we've got a long ways to go before an Auto Industry rescue plan is finalized, but it got me to thinking....... I know first hand of some people who are directly impacted (talking about you Bernie) but how many others out there are employed directly by Chrysler, Ford or GM or one of their 1st or 2nd tier suppliers?
I know there's a lot of talk about letting them file for bankruptcy and see where the chips fall in a reorganization. I've been through that in the airline industry and it's not pretty. For the general public there's less exposure with the airlines - it's a one time deal - you buy the ticket, you fly, you're done. You pay for the ticket with a credit card, you're protected. An airline stops flying, you find another one. Repeat the cycle.
This is different - buying a plane ticket on an airline in financial trouble isn't the same as buying a car or truck that you'll own for several years and need to worry about future parts and service. There are long term issues to be considered and the mere thought of an auto company not being around in a year or two will tend to be a self fulfilling prophecy.
Kind of like buying insurance - would you buy a policy from a company when you thought there was a possibility that they might not be around when you need to file a claim? We've already had 1 long standing Chevy dealership in the St. Louis area lock the doors and turn off the lights without any warning.
I'm not advocating an 'open the vault and give them everything they want' policy, but this has very serious potential implications for the entire country.
But back to the original question...... how many of you out there does this directly impact?
I have worked in the auto industry at a couple dealerships.
So, it won't impact me currently that way.
Personally, I don't believe that a bailout will sustain either manufacturer. It will only serve to delay the inevitable. My opinion, and it seems to be that of some others too. I'd like to see one of them just step up and do it, I guess. It's scary, regardless.
I reduced my inventory of three Fords to two Fords (got rid of two to get one that was newer and could do work I had done with two vehicles) this year. So, if there is a parts supply problem, I'll be impacted.
Which dealership?
Feld Chevrolet I believe.
Right Scott, Feld Chevrolet.
:biggrin:
I've been saying for at least 2 years that GM needs to get down to 3 (at most) divisions. Chevrolet, Pontiac (maybe) and Cadillac.
No more GMC trucks... only Chevy trucks.
I know that GM "saves" money by selling the lamda in all it's forms (Traverse, Enclave, Acadia, Outlook), but it must cost them a ton of money to engineer/make/stock/service all those different fascias that are required not to mention the different interiors. I would think they would be a lot better off having a lot less of that going on.
Back to Rick's question... I just bought a new G8, so I may have parts issues if they don't survive. :(
A bailout only rewards poor management and as has already been said won't fix the problem which will result in failure at a date to be announced. If the management team can't keep the business afloat then let it fail. I for one am sick and tired of seeing big business crush the workers that make up the backbone of corporations like the automakers so that the top managers can keep getting double digit raises every year.
One point that Burt may not be aware of is that following the rapid fire bankruptcies of the airline industry there were some rules changed in the corporate bankruptcy arena that really take the wind out of it for the top level managers. They can't play the games that they used to, so I think once the dust settles and they realize that they are not going to get billions dropped in their laps you will see that they can and will find a way to save the companies without their beloved bankruptcies.
Quote from: r1owner on November 21, 2008, 05:58:25 PM
I just bought a new G8, so I may have parts issues if they don't survive. :(
Ya shouldnt. Just contact any Holden dealership in Australia since the G8 is nothing more than a rebaged Holden Commodore. :)
GM does need to restructure its dealers.
Chevy should be entry level to midsize cars (3 trim levels. Base, sport, premium)
Cadillac. Large cars, luxury
GMC. All trucks, vans and suv's
Pontiac. Performance division. Corvette, Solstice/Sky & SS models.
Dump Saturn, Buick, Hummer and place teh vehicles of the threee that sell into their respective categories. Ie Saturn Astra to Chevy Astra. No car models should cross brand lines. Ie There should be no Chevy Cobalt and Pontiac G5 (same car, different bumpers). Pick one.
GM dealers can sell the lines they want.
Quote from: r1owner on November 21, 2008, 05:58:25 PM
I just bought a new G8, so I may have parts issues if they don't survive. :(
thats why I bought an Acura (honda), parts arent needed for 150,000 miles... :biggrin:
of course I thought the same thing about my yamaha... :banghead:
Quote from: tstruyk on November 22, 2008, 02:17:02 AM
thats why I bought an Acura (honda), parts arent needed for 150,000 miles... :biggrin:
of course I thought the same thing about my yamaha... :banghead:
Ouch! I remember when we used to be friends. You've changed... I feel like I don't even know you anymore.
Well, I work for Dana so we all got "the talk" last week. First they are doing voluntary layoffs and then involuntary layoffs. It all depends on how many people take the voluntary will effect the involuntary layoffs.
It has been a rough week for us.
Personally, I think the automaker's should file for bankruptcy so they can redo all those contracts that they have. I don't know which one it is but I think it's chapter 11, not chapter 7.
Let's say they do go under....
Will it be like it was back in the startup days with a bunch of little car companies springing up?
I think a lot of good engineers that were hampered by the accountants and managers could come up with some great ideas if they go to work for a more progressive company.
Quote from: r1owner on November 22, 2008, 10:39:37 AM
Let's say they do go under....
Will it be like it was back in the startup days with a bunch of little car companies springing up?
I think a lot of good engineers that were hampered by the accountants and managers could come up with some great ideas if they go to work for a more progressive company.
Good question.
I say no. This is because all the start up companies that are trying to make these electric cars have yet to produce. As they finally admit, the auto industry and the excessive government regulation is to blame. I think the Tesla guy admitted it that now he didn't think the Detroit auto guys were so stupid, after he has now put in millions more than he expected, and with no real cars to sell yet.
I don't think the "big 3" will ever go away but they have some work to do.
Quote from: Super Dave on November 22, 2008, 10:56:02 AM
Good question.
I say no. This is because all the start up companies that are trying to make these electric cars have yet to produce. As they finally admit, the auto industry and the excessive government regulation is to blame. I think the Tesla guy admitted it that now he didn't think the Detroit auto guys were so stupid, after he has now put in millions more than he expected, and with no real cars to sell yet.
Yeah, my Dad was at Corvette's of Carlisle this year when someone asked the engineer why the ZR1 has the same seats as the rest of the Vettes. The engineer said that they would have had to do all sorts of gov't mandated crash tests and would have cost over 1 million to do. So 1,000,000/ 2000 cars would add quite a lot to the bottom line! :)
I remember seeing a 60 minutes (I think) episode a month or so ago where they talked about the Tesla and were also talking to Lutz. Lutz said that the guys like Tesla can innovate, but can't build cars cause they don't know (yet anyway) how to assemble 300,000 of them.
Having said that, if the big guys do go under... a lot of that expertise in mass production will be looking for a job and it could play in someone like Tesla's hand.
I hope they don't go under. Too much at stake. Also, Waggoner should be taking a 1 a year salary like Ioccoca did back in the day. I mean 15 million! Come on! In that 60 minutes piece, the dude asked him how to justify his salary... that was an uncomfortable moment for Mr. Waggoner. :)
Hard to lay blame on any one group for it going under... I blame them all... UAW upper management for not culling the herd... people like Tim selling out and not supporting his country by buying foreign. ;)
Oh, I wish Mark was in on this thread... Mark, maybe you're even reading.
Or you have received your retirement offer. I'm hoping for that for you, man.
Yeah, this is such a struggle.
I could understand Louis Chevrolet and Henry Ford paying themselves millions as they really drove, pun not intended, the development of the car and the economy as we know it. It's a great thing. But the guys currently at the top, well, they are only perpetuating it under the continued litigation from government and "public policy" folks in addition to litigation. All very sensitive topic with extremes of reality and stupidity.
In this end, the ponzey scheme has problems when there just isn't enough continued production to fund those in the system. Similar to what local and state and federal governments seem to do. Eventually, it all collapses under competition that can accomplish things similarly at a lower cost. I won't bad mouth the US auto industry, and I have yet to find that the foreign auto industry makes vehicles that I want to buy, which seems to be the claims of some on TV lately. Seems like those are people that don't have to transport a trailer, a 12x4 sheet of plywood, a water heater, eight friends, develop a business that isn't a game and requires physical labor at different locations for customers, etc.
Still no full size vans from Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Kia, BMW, VW, etc. As for Mercedes, yeah, ok, I know a very good racing photographer that almost had me sold on his Sprinter, but after he had to replace the crank and 100k, well, it wasn't as reliable as my old '91 Ford. And that that was a common problem, and that there was a problem in getting replacement parts, well, that's not acceptable to me.
EPA/DOT should relax regulation so that the big three can use and sell some of their off shore opportunities in the US. I want a diesel Ford Focus wagon. I don't want to buy another gasoline car again. When will the government let me buy "the car I want to buy"? Yeah, I do think those guys in the top skyboxes really need to relook at what they are making, but, one has to ask, do they really want the bailout money? Or are they just looking to develop this to the final end where they move toward the bankruptcy reorganization. With all these hearings and talks, their case is being made, and it is, in fact, developing a market place that recognizes the actual issues at hand. Will go a long way in fostering good will in the eyes of consumers. A continued slow down in sales will allow them to idle plants, etc. too.
GM and Ford wont go completely under. At the most they will cease production in the US and stay in Europe, Aus, South & central America.
Yeah Dave it would be nice if the EPA/DOT releaxed some of its silly regs, but as we both know, stupid people ruin it for everyone. Do we need cars with ESC (required starting in the 09 model year)? No. But thank the retards who drive SUV's like they are low slung sports cars and roll them.
Theres a few vehicles I would like to get my hands on, but they arent imported here. Ford Falcon XR8, Ford Ute Super Pursuit, Toyota LC79 (probably the last of the pure work trucks made, no frills), Toyota Hilux diesel (Tacoma), Nissan Navara turbo diesel (Frontier, may be coming from what I heard) or the Nissan Patrol Cab diesel. Hell I bet the Ford Festiva diesel from europe would sell decent here. 65+mpg.
Ok... I have been trying to stay silent about all this but it's not gonna go away over night I guess. First let me say that its my belief that the U.S. Automotive industry will survive. GM will not fold up into a forgotten dust ball. There may not be a "Big 3" as we now know it. As a matter of fact I know this. Something has gotta give. But as you may or may not know, there was no talk what so ever of GM failing and filing for bankrupsty before all the failing banks said "hey... we blew all our clients money and now we need the government to bail us out because we now cant afford to make loans to the public so we can sustain our economy" Then the automakers said... "Hey... If the people cant get loans to buy our products, we have just lost billions of dollars and WE need help now" And now Now Mr. Small busnessman is laying off 35% of his work force because there is a slowing demand for his product..... its all a domino effect. BUT......
If you all remember, we went through the same thing back in the early 80's. We survived then, we will survive now. If they let GM, FOrd and Chrysler fail... what would happen to consumer conficance in this country? What about NASCAR? NHRA? What about the millitary Hummers? Do we replace them with Isuzu Troopers? Replace all the heavy armor vehicle transmissions with Nippon trannys? Let the thoudands of dealerships and automotive suppliers just fold up? 1 in 10 american jobs is related either directly or indirectly to the US automotive industry. Thats a lot of jobs people. Thats not counting all the jobs affected world wide.
Look.. the panic button was pushed prematurely in my opinion, but when the Senate voted to approve this 700 Billion bailout pakage, what did you think the automotive industry was gonna do? There gonna scare the shit out of people so they can get some cash! If youall remember, just a week or so before this 700 billion bailout was even a thought... GM was gonna try and buy Chrysler. So there you have it. Its my opinion that GM, Ford, and yes Chrysler will survive this mess, but serious changes and consessions will have to be made, implimented and applied in order for any of this to work. We have to change the way we think, do business, and manufacture in order to survive in the now and future. But It can be done. It will not be easy or popular. But it can be done.
Dave, as far as my retirement? I was 5 weeks shy of being offered a package. I am eligable to retire Feb. 5th so I will have to stick around till the next package is offered. I'm thinkin 6 mo's or so.
So, close, Mark...
Ben Stein, conservative writer, and funny guy, was really for the bailout from the defense industry stand point. I agree there on that principle. Hummers, M927's, etc. Long reaching impact there that is necessary for defense, here and abroad.
Everyone is looking for a handout. If there's going to be something for everyone, I will probably be inclined to look for my "fair share", whatever that is.
Quote from: r1owner on November 22, 2008, 03:02:05 AM
Ouch! I remember when we used to be friends. You've changed... I feel like I don't even know you anymore.
I havent been the same since the breakup... :biggrin:
fyi I bought used... I supported the economy more directly buying my Acura then you did buying a pontiac :ass:
but if ya wanna dig deeper... my TL was manufactured at Marysville Autoplant in Marysville Ohio... :thumb: (and the TL line has been made there since 1999)
Quote from: Super Dave on November 22, 2008, 01:46:56 PM
Everyone is looking for a handout. If there's going to be something for everyone, I will probably be inclined to look for my "fair share", whatever that is.
Your share will be the same as mine, check please....
My brother and myself were discussing the Big 3 situation last week and we both feel what needs to be done is for the ever fabled consolidation to happen. Something that's been tossed around for some time is the combining of all 3 auto makers into 1 company that doesn't compete against each other on a domestic front, but together as 1 powerful company on a global market. Decide which model in each catagory is the best and improve it by taking the best features from the overlapping/competing vehicles (and getting rid of those other vehicles all together) would create vehicles that were far more competative on the global market. If the best of what each company has to offer in designers, leaders, manufacturing processes, engines, specific vehicles, etc. was brought together into 1 company the chances of success would most likely skyrocket. There are still the issues of mis-management and waste, but that could be worked out in a consolidation.
Sure it's great to have a ton of choices in Domestic vehicles, but making sacrifices by having less choices in a model category and having better vehicles would make up for that and provide more dependable vehicles with more possible customizable options as well. :thumb:
Quote from: tstruyk on November 22, 2008, 07:53:46 PM
I havent been the same since the breakup... :biggrin:
fyi I bought used... I supported the economy more directly buying my Acura then you did buying a pontiac :ass:
but if ya wanna dig deeper... my TL was manufactured at Marysville Autoplant in Marysville Ohio... :thumb: (and the TL line has been made there since 1999)
All good points. With all the parts being made all over the world for each manufacturer, I really do wonder if there is that much difference made to our economy when chosing domestic/foreign over the other.
I guess for me, any
profit made on my car stays in America, but then one can argue about the fact that the car isn't actually produced here, so taxes paid to workers that would of assembled it here are lost. Or course, any profit seems to line the pockets of the CEO's anymore which makes me sick.
Have there been any good studies about buying something made in America via say Toyota vs a domestic car made here?
Quote from: GSXR RACER MIKE on November 22, 2008, 09:38:17 PM
My brother and myself were discussing the Big 3 situation last week and we both feel what needs to be done is for the ever fabled consolidation to happen. Something that's been tossed around for some time is the combining of all 3 auto makers into 1 company that doesn't compete against each other on a domestic front, but together as 1 powerful company on a global market. Decide which model in each catagory is the best and improve it by taking the best features from the overlapping/competing vehicles (and getting rid of those other vehicles all together) would create vehicles that were far more competative on the global market. If the best of what each company has to offer in designers, leaders, manufacturing processes, engines, specific vehicles, etc. was brought together into 1 company the chances of success would most likely skyrocket. There are still the issues of mis-management and waste, but that could be worked out in a consolidation.
Sure it's great to have a ton of choices in Domestic vehicles, but making sacrifices by having less choices in a model category and having better vehicles would make up for that and provide more dependable vehicles with more possible customizable options as well. :thumb:
Good idea comrade. ::)
First of all they haven't been the big three for a couple of years!! The main problem with the US auto industry is that they are burdened with very expensive retirees. I feel that most laborers are grossly overpaid for what they do. Even the Japanese makers here in the US are paying way too much for workers. The difference is that they have not been here for long (no retirees....yet). I would hesitate to blame management for Detroit's woes. In most cases, these managers are hampered by very powerful unions which often protect the lazy, the underqualified and dishonest worker. I remember thinking as I visited the York, PA Harley plant that it was essentially run by the union. A hard working, smart worker doesn't need the union - in fact they resent it because it cost them money and protects the slackers. On the other hand, it is clear that American management has not done itself any favor - there is no way a CEO is worth 300x what a worker makes. In Europe, the top C-level execs make maybe 20-30x the compensation of the entry level worker.
Either way, even the Japanese will lose the battle to the lower paid Koreans, Chinese and Indians. The next huge pool of cheap labor is Africa.
My refinery has hired college and even masters levels grads into entry level operator positions because it can. They pay top $$ - so we have guys with advanced math degrees loading up railcars. This is beneficial for the company and makes more and more sense as we reduce the amount of low skill labor in favor of technical work. Gets workers out of dangerous areas also.
Globalization is really tough when you're on top of the heap as the US and Western Europe has been for decades. On the other hand, it is generally very good for third world countries. You cannot pay a disgruntled union worker $37/hr to assemble a dashboard when some girl in India will happily do it for $2/hr. We're seeing this more in more in IT and Engineering also. Most of our P&ID are sent to India via the internet for cadding.
Until, the world is an even playing field (economically, environmentally and socially), low skill jobs will migrate to the cheapest labor pools. The only thing we can do, is become very qualified, specialized and competent such that a cheaper overseas person cannot replace us.
My 0.02
So a big problem is the overpaid mis-management team and the overpaid dis-honest worker. I agree that the $75/hour is a lot of money but I also agree that the hge paychecks that the CEO's is out of bounds. I have never worked for a union run company so I can't comment either way.
This is what I call leadership by example. When things got tough this Japanese executive cut all of his perks and dropped his salary to $90,000 USD. He takes the bus to work! Even his pilots make more money than he does.
http://charter.net/video/?vendid=18&vid=166584&sc_cid=wvtaba1
Stephen... I was going to sit here and try and to reply to some of the things you said in your last post, but I would be wasting my time typing the words. For you see, I am an employee of an American automotive manufacturing facility and because I make... what was it you said? $37 hr?
My all mighty powerfull union (which is allowing for plant closing after closing, job cut after job cut) wont allow me to say what is true because I am lazy, underqualified and dishonest.
So I am gonna sit here on my disgruntled ass and wait for my retirement and collect my fat ole pension and watch them replace me with a college educated engeneer whom spent THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of $ on his/her education just to work loading boxcars for.... not top dollar, but a mear $12 hr.
Grow up!
That's "my" 0.02
I worked for Lee Chevrolet in the 70's, transmission mechanic.
Being in Jax. Fla. non union etc, I saw the problem way back then and wondered how long can they keep it up, all these years later it's caught up with them.
Bottom line is they can't continue as they are, that party is over and needs re-doing.
I'm still a member of Operating Engineers local 25, {Maritime}
Well Steve you have just let your ignorance out of the closet.
First, you call the biggest part of the problem the retirees. Let's not forget that those retirement benefits were covered by OVER funded pension funds that the exec's raided in the dot.com era to line their own pockets. Of course when the dot.com era went bust and the pension funds became UNDER funded (due to inappropriate "borrowing" by the exec's) they couldn't pay back what they had taken so they asked congress to make some new laws to give them more time to bring funding back up. What this is called in the real world is theft, you see the exec's were left unattended with the benefits of the over paid lazy assed union workers and they spent them while no one was looking.
Second, I am an overpaid lazy assed union worker who has seen not raises but pay cuts for the last 15 years all the while the 300 top exec's have seen double digit raises. In fact 100% of my union groups last concession went straight into the pockets of those top managers as bonuses. Funny how even though their management is leading the company down the toilet they still get their bonuses.
Third, You tout globalization as a good thing that will make products cheaper, the only detail you don't seem to understand is that the only ones in this country that will be able to afford them will be the top level exec's (BTW the workers in other countries that are providing low cost labor can't afford these products either) so you should consider your lifestyle predicated on those lazy assed union grunts you so resent. Just an aside here, you are aware that engineering is the current darling of the outsourcing game, right?
Finally Steve, I would be rather careful how you portray yourself and your employer, Marathon, I (and some others as well) might just go off on a tirade about BIG Oil, wait a minute, didn't their most recent windfall precipitate this whole mess?
Quote...go off on a tirade about BIG Oil, wait a minute, didn't their most recent windfall precipitate this whole mess?
I don't think it did. It was the continued shoddy lending issues to individuals that were bad risks for home loans. Eventually, the buying bubble reached a peak, including the buying by illegal immigrants, and the bubble in building burst, values dropped below what people owed and were never good risks in payment either way.
Big oil? If it weren't for big oil, we'd have small oil with supply problems that would lead to higher prices and even more volitility that would generate further problems for domestic and foreign products besides gas...
Like tires, laptops, TV's, sportswear, etc. Please, look at what you have in your house and in your whole environment that is made from petroleum products in plastics, polymers...leather uses petroleum in the tanning and dying process too. With growing populations of consumers in other parts of the world, the cost going up is part of the
law of supply and demand.
Dave, I refer to BIG Oil in the profit sense. If the petroleum prices of the summer were warranted then how can the industry survive at the current prices? Why is it that the automakers are decried for their prices, the airlines are decried for their fares..... and you seem to believe that the summers oil prices are warranted?
Yes, there were some very iffy loans being made, if they had been paid back would we be in this mess? Why did the homeowner (irresponsible as he/she might have been) default oh their loan? because they had a surplus of cash lying around? No, because their food bills went up, their cost to get to and from work went up, the products they buy went up, all of these costs rose dramatically over the last year. What did all these things have in common? How can anyone justify the cost of their product going up over 100% in a 5 year period and then in months falling almost as much? Sounds like someone rode the wave for all it was worth. We are coming into the HIGHEST travel demand week of the entire year and gas prices are 1/2 of what they were 5 months ago.
A risky loan is just that, it means nothing, unless it is not paid. The big picture.
BTW, I'm an overpaid, lazy assed, union worker whose been about to be laid off for the last 10 years, most of what's in my house is used, ALL of my TVs, microwave, furniture... is something that someone else bought, used, and was going to throw out, I was able to repair it and give it a second lease on life and give myself a luxury I couldn't otherwise afford.
Quote from: HAWK on November 23, 2008, 03:18:09 PM
Dave, I refer to BIG Oil in the profit sense. If the petroleum prices of the summer were warranted then how can the industry survive at the current prices?
Ok, I'll focus on that part.
Since the taxes that the government receives is double if not triple their profits...
Government is a bigger problem.
Oil has lead to the development of many things that consumers need and use. Permits, regulation, and taxation has not.
Dave I will not argue about Gov being a big problem, on that we can agree.
Please name another industry with Oil's profits.
Explain the summer's gas prices and why coming into the highest demand week they are half that.
BTW due to the summer's oil prices I am being laid off in Jan.
Back to the intent of this post, should the big3 be bailed out? NO!
Yes this will hurt a lot of workers in this country in the short term. In the long term they will find other work.
A bailout however will play right into the hands of poor management, they will continue to operate business as usual, tighten the belt on the workers and continue to live high on the hog.
I would rather see the business go under and have to start over again. Will the top brass regain their stranglehold on labor? Yes, they will however have to rebuild their machine rather than simply refueling on the bailout dime. I hope.
I am sick and tired of the overpaid, lazy assed, union worker (who is BTW lower middle class) being the root of all that is evil in America.
Man up and justify your due with your accomplishments, not by belittling someone else.
Quote from: HAWK on November 23, 2008, 03:28:29 PM
Please name another industry with Oil's profits.
Explain the summer's gas prices and why coming into the highest demand week they are half that.
I'll keep it simple. I answered the first question. Government by volume of just their take from our need for oil for our kids, etc.
After that, there are tons of businesses, large and small, that have profit margins above oil. There is not debate on that. A place I worked at had a higher margin.
Prices rolled up because of the world wide demand, ever increasing in places like India, China, etc. with their higher populations wanting to do the things that we do. Consumer spending, driving, etc. China was also stockpiling petroleum products for the Olympic games so they didn't have a shortage in house while everone was visiting the People's Republic.
After that, demand did, as it has traditionally, fell heading toward the northern hemisphere's fall.
But, additionally, one must recognize that world wide purchasing of crude is based in barrels in US Dollars. The US Dollar made a comeback, and it now buys more than it did before. Listen to all the Canadians about how their Dollar was worth more than ours. Well, it's not that way anymore. I think a Canadian Dollar is work $.80 again.
Don't discount media hype too. It affects consumer spending. I know that in May of 2001, if one had some business records, I could see some changes in my personal business that I felt, but didn't recognize until someone from CCS raised the point that Greenspan spoke the word "recession" then. Similarly, all the talk has beat up consumers confidence.
As for work, hey, I'm looking too.
Stephen PLEASE KISS MY LAZY UNION ASS. :finger:
Quote from: HAWK on November 23, 2008, 12:05:37 PM
Well Steve you have just let your ignorance out of the closet. (I'lll take the high road on that one and won't dignify that with a response)
First, you call the biggest part of the problem the retirees. Let's not forget that those retirement benefits were covered by OVER funded pension funds that the exec's raided in the dot.com era to line their own pockets. Of course when the dot.com era went bust and the pension funds became UNDER funded (due to inappropriate "borrowing" by the exec's) they couldn't pay back what they had taken so they asked congress to make some new laws to give them more time to bring funding back up. What this is called in the real world is theft, you see the exec's were left unattended with the benefits of the over paid lazy assed union workers and they spent them while no one was looking.(I know that United raided the pension plans - I don't believe that happened with the automotive companies - but regardless, the large retiree pool (which the japs don't have) is undermining the former big three's competitiveness. The jap. co. do not have the same burden.
Second, I am an overpaid lazy assed union worker who has seen not raises but pay cuts for the last 15 years all the while the 300 top exec's have seen double digit raises. In fact 100% of my union groups last concession went straight into the pockets of those top managers as bonuses. Funny how even though their management is leading the company down the toilet they still get their bonuses. (You're one of the hardest most competent workers that I know so you do not fall in that minority) union workers, lower/middle level mgt and professionals have all experienced the same thing. No question that exec. comp. is out of touch. United was the one of the first pension raiders - so much for an employee owned co.
Third, You tout globalization as a good thing that will make products cheaper, the only detail you don't seem to understand is that the only ones in this country that will be able to afford them will be the top level exec's (BTW the workers in other countries that are providing low cost labor can't afford these products either) so you should consider your lifestyle predicated on those lazy assed union grunts you so resent. Just an aside here, you are aware that engineering is the current darling of the outsourcing game, right? (Did I tout globalization as being positive for N. America/Europe... I think not. It's only benefitting third world countries. I agree that the economy will collapse if the middle class continues to lose purchasing power.
Finally Steve, I would be rather careful how you portray yourself and your employer, Marathon, I (and some others as well) might just go off on a tirade about BIG Oil, wait a minute, didn't their most recent windfall precipitate this whole mess?
Dave described what led to high oil prices - I won't deny that big oil benefitted - right now, we are losing our shirts!!
Quote from: HAWK on November 23, 2008, 03:28:29 PM
Explain the summer's gas prices and why coming into the highest demand week they are half that.
Sensitivity is often about proximity.
Why aren't you recalling the huge drop in prices that immediately followed the change in administration in early 2001? Dramatic drop in price. Lowest I paid was under 70 cents, but the national low was 60 in North Carolina. I thought I'd never see that.
Meanwhile, in 1980, you could buy the game Stop Thief for about $40. On ebay, how much do you pay now? LOL!
While you all catch your collective breath... I would like to give kudos to Rick for pulling out all the stops and digging super deep into that repertoire of shit disturbingness and coming up with something really special... :cheers:
and Steve..be careful....all those Southern Illinois IBEW electricians in Robinson can be a fairly unforgiving crew.
I'm not defending anyone here but the high price of gas was not the fault of the big oil. It was the result of all the speculators driving the price of oil through the roof.
Didn't Congress go to OPEC and ask about increasing supply and their reply was that there isn't a shortage so why increase the supply?
If I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will correct me. :biggrin:
Probably should have stuck to the topic @ hand instead of going off on an alcohol induced rant @ 3 am (the F@##$%$%^g A*&^%^%%l that called my cell @ 1am - when i was being picked up for a track day @ 5:30 may have had something to do with it.
Do I think the US automotive co. should be bailed out? No. My experience is that several Canadian Crown Corporations (Gov. owned Co) had been bailed out in the '80s and 90's eventually failed. It would have been cheaper to pay all of the workers full salary until retirement. Short/medium term this is going to be very tough for thousands of displaced workers.
Internationally, we are no looking too good right now. How could we mess up one of the strongest economies? - additionally we are affecting the rest of the world. When the US sneezes, Canada goes into a coma and the rest of the world gets the flu.
Quote from: SV88 on November 24, 2008, 02:40:13 PM
Do I think the US automotive co. should be bailed out? No. My experience is that several Canadian Crown Corporations (Gov. owned Co) had been bailed out in the '80s and 90's eventually failed. It would have been cheaper to pay all of the workers full salary until retirement. Short/medium term this is going to be very tough for thousands of displaced workers.
Internationally, we are no looking too good right now. How could we mess up one of the strongest economies? - additionally we are affecting the rest of the world. When the US sneezes, Canada goes into a coma and the rest of the world gets the flu.
Thanks, Steve. The reference above about Canadian Crown Companies what I was going to ask for next. If economists and meterologist always only looked at "models" rather than what has actually happened in reality, their opinions might be different.
Quote from: gpz11 on November 24, 2008, 02:38:43 PM
I'm not defending anyone here but the high price of gas was not the fault of the big oil. It was the result of all the speculators driving the price of oil through the roof.
Didn't Congress go to OPEC and ask about increasing supply and their reply was that there isn't a shortage so why increase the supply?
If I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will correct me. :biggrin:
Big oil would have been involved in hedging in commodities markets too. That's how they keep supply even and pricing smoother.
As for OPEC, yes, they asked them. That's the
law of supply and demand. If OPEC raised production, there would be more oil, and prices would drop. If there is "too much" oil, prices go down. If we got our own oil here, there would be more oil available on the market and prices would drop too.
Yeah, it is all "speculation" on future oil, but it has a purpose. Corn, wheat, and a lot of other things are traded this way too. It isn't a bad thing. It's how the world and even local economies work. Even beef lots.
Quote from: backMARKr on November 24, 2008, 01:15:23 PM
While you all catch your collective breath... I would like to give kudos to Rick for pulling out all the stops and digging super deep into that repertoire of shit disturbingness and coming up with something really special... :cheers:
:lmao: Exactly what I was thinking after I spent a couple hours this weekend typing and then deleting posts so as not to trip into Mr. Weaver's cauldron of steaming you know what.
As entertaining as this thread has become, can I bring it back to the original purpose for my posting it? (Oh hell, just let it take on a life of it's own!) :thumb:
My original thoughts were along two lines:
1. Concern for those people who are being directly impacted by this major shakeup in the auto industry and a weak attempt at getting people to think about how far reaching this all is.......
- from the the Big 3 manufacturers, to their parts suppliers, to the companies who supply the parts suppliers.
- To the local businesses whose revenue is dependant on all those affected upline and downline employees spending money in their stores,
- to the tax base of the communities where all these people live,
- to the school districts whose budgets are dependent on the infrastructure above that is impacted.
The multiplication factor is tremendous here.
2. Concern that a bankruptcy filing in an industry such as this is much more complex that almost every industry .........
- because of the fact that purchasing a car/truck is the 2nd largest purchase in the lives of virtually everyone in the country.
- And the fact that there are so many different specific needs that people look for in a car or truck and the options you value when deciding which vehicle to buy. One size doesn't fit all. (YAHOO - You Always Have Other Options)
- And the long term needs you have from a company for years with service and parts for a car or truck.
- And the role that consumer confidence plays in sealing the fate of companies that are tetering on the brink of collapse.
I am on the fence as to what form of government assistance (incentives?) should be pursued. A blank rescue check is not an option though. Advanced technology development has to be part of the solution.
I fear that just letting the chips fall where they may is not the answer and will have widespread, unforeseen devasting impacts on the country as a whole.
my .02
Quote from: Burt Munro on November 25, 2008, 03:56:20 PM
I am on the fence as to what form of government assistance (incentives?) should be pursued. A blank rescue check is not an option though. Advanced technology development has to be part of the solution.
I fear that just letting the chips fall where they may is not the answer and will have widespread, unforeseen devasting impacts on the country as a whole.
my .02
It's a hard one, isn't it?
I mean, all this bailout stuff is really mismanaged with no accountability. The more talk about "where the money is going" results in taxpayers questing the regular course of business that businesses do. I mean, yeah, Citibank is giving money to a baseball field. That's there previous course of action. That also built jobs, developed goodwill in the market place, blah, blah, blah. Put government money in there and now it's a socialist process where "the people's money" is now a great and regular concern to the operation of a company that was forced to take the money.
Auto companies...
How many billion is the talk about? Hey, wanna bail them out? I think $15 billion would buy 500,000 people a $28,000 car from the big three.
As for this idea that a mandate within a bailout would shit some kind of new technology "that people want to buy", it won't work. No permit ever built a bridge. That stuff comes from the minds and hands of men. Who ever can figure out a hydraulic hybrid or something will make money.
Sure, Toyota is selling Prius...Prii? Ford has the Escape hybrid. I bet both Toyota and Ford are still doing better with their bigger cars and trucks...cars that people want to buy. Not those that we're told we're supposed to have...buy those that know so much more than us.
At some point when the vital signs of brain activity is gone, the body begins to let go, you pull off the ventilator. It sucks, but it needs a fundamental change.
Alright I've bitten my tongue till it hurts too much to keep biting it.
I work for the airline industry. Yes I am one of those overpaid union jackasses. I am FORBIDDEN from striking to force my employer to capitulate at contract time because my services are SO IMPORTANT that the economy as we know it would cease to exist if I were to strike (have a look at the Railway Labor Act) but the federal government saw fit to deny a bailout request several years ago.
Now the auto industry wants a bailout, HELL NO! As a result of the denial several years ago the airlines have played the bankruptcy game and guess what, you can still fly from here to there. What's that you say? the auto industry has so many support industries that will cave in if we don't bail them out? Let's see, how do people get to and from the airport, how do their bags get handled, how about the whole vacation industry, how many products are shipped by air how many people are employed in the simple operation of an airport. No the big 3 are not isolated, neither is any other industry. You can hand them some money and let them continue to operate status quo or you can force them to change to survive. I don't think ANY of the bailout is right we're just letting the fat cats keep playing their game only with the little guys money instead of their own.
Just my .01, can't afford .02 anymore.
Paul,
I stand by my belief that this is different.
You and I have talked before about working in the airline industry and how FUN & EXCITING it is! (yeah, RIGHT!) Being a customer and being an employee create very different levels of impact.
A flight from Chicago to New York on November 26th at 5pm lasts about 2 hrs. Once that flight is over that seat on that flight can't be reused, resold, modified or rebuilt. You paid for it. On November 27th it is no longer a thing of value. If you make that same trip a year from now you buy a new ticket, maybe on the same airline, maybe not if they've closed the doors.
A Dodge Ram truck built on the assembly line in Fenton, MO rolls off the assembly line on the afternoon of November 26th. The new owner takes delivery of that truck some time later and pays for it. He may pay for it in one shot or continue to pay for it over the next 3-6 years. He may keep the truck for a long time and then sell it to someone else. Hopefully, it will still be worth a lot of money. The truck may require warranty work. Who will handle that? The truck will at some point require replacement parts specific to that exact vehicle. Ford and GM make very similar vehicles. But there is very little likelyhood that a part manufactured by Ford or GM will ever fit that Dodge. Use of that truck will impact the owner on a daily basis for a long time.
I am impacted daily by the fact that TWA ceased to exist in 2001 only because I use to work there. But I am only one of about 25,000 people. Anyone who flies on November 26, 2008 won't be impacted by the fact that TWA isn't around 7 years later, other than the memories of the trip they may still recall.
If I'm the guy who buys that Dodge truck coming off the assembly line on November 26, 2008 I am hopefully still using that truck on a daily basis for years. If Chrysler ceases to exist even 1 day after I take delivery of that truck I will continue to be impacted financially for as long as I own the truck.
Shutting down an airline or an auto manufacturer affects the employees in much the same way.
Shutting down the airline that I use to travel on or shutting down the company who built my truck impacts me in distinctly different ways. I'll find a new airline to fly but I'm still paying for that truck I bought and can't get parts for.
Ok, I'll run with that...
The plane is built, put into service. During that service life, it is maintained, updated, checked, loaded, and, at some point, it might be sold as an asset yet to another company, etc.
Yeah, the inventory of the single seat is finite, but even a plane with only one paying passenger still requires a substantial amount of maintenance and safety checks and requirements above what the family car takes. You know, when the family car breaks down, hey, you pull over onto the side of the road.
When a 737 has a mechanical, it's a little different. So, there is a very large host of inspectors, workers, loaders, and all that are part of that industry. I'm betting, just like big oil, that a mutual fund probably has investments inside a number of airlines, in addition to various US motor corporations.
Yeah, the family might have a $400 a month payment on the family vehicle for six years in addition to maintenance, gas, and insurance, I'd bet that a good aircraft might move an actual inventory of about 6500 passengers during a working month at an average of about $100 a fare...plus paid freight? Might not be important in the garage, but the financial impact again is probably worth looking at.
Certainly different. The overhead on the plane side is very different.
Burt, you are missing one VERY important detail in your argument, I can replace nearly ANY part on that Dodge truck with a part from a different manufacturer. If Dodge were to go under tomorrow you would still be able to get any problem with it fixed on Thursday with after market parts. The whole argument for bailout of the auto industry revolves around that fact that if the big 3 go under all of the manufacturers of the parts they use will be hurt. I worked in the auto industry for 16 years and in that time I would say that better than 90% of the parts I installed were after market. Hell, if you are actually servicing your Dodge with Dodge parts then you would probably save money if Dodge went under.
I stand by my position that the bailout is a mistake. Look at the bailout in general, who has received money, aside from the banks that wrote the bad loans to begin with. The banks wrote high risk loans that the borrowers defaulted on and the banks cried "we're broke". Now the feds give the banks their money and then they tell the banks that they have to give the borrowers easier repayment terms. I sure wish I could make a risky loan and get repaid twice.
My problem with the bailout is two fold:
1. you are rewarding executive incompetence - These guys make bonuses whether they run their co. into the ground or are rock stars - they are accountable and may see lower comp. but even if they're fired, most have golden parachutes which most of the population just dreams about.
2. Gov. should stay out of business - generally speaking except in cases like Enron, Andersen.
3. (Ok I lied) Where's this money going to come from??? While the US tripled its debt in the last 10 years, Canada is now essentially debt free. The same is true of several european countries.such as Holland.
We are better off letting them fail and using some money to support/retrain/redeploy the workers in growth industries. Milwaukee went throught really tough times in the early 80's with wide-spread layoffs in big manufacturing plants. Many of these workers either started or went to work for a bunch of smaller, vibrant high performing small businesses.
I agree with Hawk's (yeah that's rare) position that as long as there is demand, aftermarket manufacturers will provide parts. Basic economics.