Serious Question........

[r1owner]

Let's say they do go under....

Will it be like it was back in the startup days with a bunch of little car companies springing up?

I think  a lot of good engineers that were hampered by the accountants and managers could come up with some great ideas if they go to work for a more progressive company.

[Super Dave]

Let's say they do go under....

Will it be like it was back in the startup days with a bunch of little car companies springing up?

I think  a lot of good engineers that were hampered by the accountants and managers could come up with some great ideas if they go to work for a more progressive company.

Good question.

I say no.  This is because all the start up companies that are trying to make these electric cars have yet to produce.  As they finally admit, the auto industry and the excessive government regulation is to blame.  I think the Tesla guy admitted it that now he didn't think the Detroit auto guys were so stupid, after he has now put in millions more than he expected, and with no real cars to sell yet.

[gpz11]

I don't think the "big 3" will ever go away but they have some work to do.

[r1owner]

Good question.

I say no.  This is because all the start up companies that are trying to make these electric cars have yet to produce.  As they finally admit, the auto industry and the excessive government regulation is to blame.  I think the Tesla guy admitted it that now he didn't think the Detroit auto guys were so stupid, after he has now put in millions more than he expected, and with no real cars to sell yet.

Yeah, my Dad was at Corvette's of Carlisle this year when someone asked the engineer why the ZR1 has the same seats as the rest of the Vettes.  The engineer said that they would have had to do all sorts of gov't mandated crash tests and would have cost over 1 million to do.  So 1,000,000/ 2000 cars would add quite a lot to the bottom line! :)

I remember seeing a 60 minutes (I think) episode a month or so ago where they talked about the Tesla and were also talking to Lutz.  Lutz said that the guys like Tesla can innovate, but can't build cars cause they don't know (yet anyway) how to assemble 300,000 of them.

Having said that, if the big guys do go under... a lot of that expertise in mass production will be looking for a job and it could play in someone like Tesla's hand.

I hope they don't go under.  Too much at stake.  Also, Waggoner should be taking a 1 a year salary like Ioccoca did back in the day.  I mean 15 million!  Come on!   In that 60 minutes piece, the dude asked him how to justify his salary... that was an uncomfortable moment for Mr. Waggoner. :)

Hard to lay blame on any one group for it going under... I blame them all... UAW upper management for not culling the herd... people like Tim selling out and not supporting his country by buying foreign. ;)

[Super Dave]

Oh, I wish Mark was in on this thread...  Mark, maybe you're even reading.

Or you have received your retirement offer.  I'm hoping for that for you, man.


Yeah, this is such a struggle. 

I could understand Louis Chevrolet and Henry Ford paying themselves millions as they really drove, pun not intended, the development of the car and the economy as we know it.  It's a great thing.  But the guys currently at the top, well, they are only perpetuating it under the continued litigation from government and "public policy" folks in addition to litigation.  All very sensitive topic with extremes of reality and stupidity.

In this end, the ponzey scheme has problems when there just isn't enough continued production to fund those in the system.  Similar to what local and state and federal governments seem to do.  Eventually, it all collapses under competition that can accomplish things similarly at a lower cost.  I won't bad mouth the US auto industry, and I have yet to find that the foreign auto industry makes vehicles that I want to buy, which seems to be the claims of some on TV lately.  Seems like those are people that don't have to transport a trailer, a 12x4 sheet of plywood, a water heater, eight friends, develop a business that isn't a game and requires physical labor at different locations for customers, etc.

Still no full size vans from Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Kia, BMW, VW, etc.  As for Mercedes, yeah, ok, I know a very good racing photographer that almost had me sold on his Sprinter, but after he had to replace the crank and 100k, well, it wasn't as reliable as my old '91 Ford.  And that that was a common problem, and that there was a problem in getting replacement parts, well, that's not acceptable to me.

EPA/DOT should relax regulation so that the big three can use and sell some of their off shore opportunities in the US.  I want a diesel Ford Focus wagon.  I don't want to buy another gasoline car again.  When will the government let me buy "the car I want to buy"?  Yeah, I do think those guys in the top skyboxes really need to relook at what they are making, but, one has to ask, do they really want the bailout money?  Or are they just looking to develop this to the final end where they move toward the bankruptcy reorganization.  With all these hearings and talks, their case is being made, and it is, in fact, developing a market place that recognizes the actual issues at hand.  Will go a long way in fostering good will in the eyes of consumers.  A continued slow down in sales will allow them to idle plants, etc. too. 

[Woofentino Pugrossi]

GM and Ford wont go completely under. At the most they will cease production in the US and stay in Europe, Aus, South & central America.


Yeah Dave it would be nice if the EPA/DOT releaxed some of its silly regs, but as we both know, stupid people ruin it for everyone. Do we need cars with ESC (required starting in the 09 model year)? No. But thank the retards who drive SUV's like they are low slung sports cars and roll them.

Theres a few vehicles I would like to get my hands on, but they arent imported here. Ford Falcon XR8, Ford Ute Super Pursuit, Toyota LC79 (probably the last of the pure work trucks made, no frills), Toyota Hilux diesel (Tacoma), Nissan Navara turbo diesel (Frontier, may be coming from what I heard) or the Nissan Patrol Cab diesel. Hell I bet the Ford Festiva diesel from europe would sell decent here. 65+mpg.

[Mark Bernard]

Ok...  I have been trying to stay silent about all this but it's not gonna go away over night I guess. First let me say that its my belief that the U.S. Automotive industry will survive. GM will not fold up into a forgotten dust ball. There may not be a "Big 3" as we now know it. As a matter of fact I know this. Something has gotta give. But as you may or may not know, there was no talk what so ever of GM failing and filing for bankrupsty before all the failing banks said "hey... we blew all our clients money and now we need the government to bail us out because we now cant afford to make loans to the public so we can sustain our economy" Then the automakers said... "Hey... If the people cant get loans to buy our products, we have just lost billions of dollars and WE need help now" And now Now Mr. Small busnessman is laying off 35% of his work force because there is a slowing demand for his product..... its all a domino effect. BUT......

If you all remember, we went through the same thing back in the early 80's. We survived then, we will survive now. If they let GM, FOrd and Chrysler fail... what would happen to consumer conficance in this country? What about NASCAR? NHRA? What about the millitary Hummers? Do we replace them with Isuzu Troopers? Replace all the heavy armor vehicle transmissions with Nippon trannys? Let the thoudands of dealerships and automotive suppliers just fold up? 1 in 10 american jobs is related either directly or indirectly to the US automotive industry. Thats a lot of jobs people. Thats not counting all the jobs affected world wide.

Look.. the panic button was pushed prematurely in my opinion, but when the Senate voted to approve this 700 Billion bailout pakage, what did you think the automotive industry was gonna do? There gonna scare the shit out of people so they can get some cash! If youall remember, just a week or so before this 700 billion bailout was even a thought... GM was gonna try and buy Chrysler. So there you have it. Its my opinion that GM, Ford, and yes Chrysler will survive this mess, but serious changes and consessions will have to be made, implimented and applied in order for any of this to work. We have to change the way we think, do business, and manufacture in order to survive in the now and future. But It can be done. It will not be easy or popular. But it can be done.

Dave, as far as my retirement? I was 5 weeks shy of being offered a package. I am eligable to retire Feb. 5th so I will have to stick around till the next package is offered. I'm thinkin 6 mo's or so.

[Super Dave]

So, close, Mark...

Ben Stein, conservative writer, and funny guy, was really for the bailout from the defense industry stand point.  I agree there on that principle.  Hummers, M927's, etc.  Long reaching impact there that is necessary for defense, here and abroad. 

Everyone is looking for a handout.  If there's going to be something for everyone, I will probably be inclined to look for my "fair share", whatever that is.

[tstruyk]

Ouch!  I remember when we used to be friends.  You've changed... I feel like I don't even know you anymore.

I havent been the same since the breakup... 

fyi I bought used... I supported the economy more directly buying my Acura then you did buying a pontiac 

but if ya wanna dig deeper... my TL was manufactured at Marysville Autoplant in Marysville Ohio...    (and the TL line has been made there since 1999)

[HAWK]

Everyone is looking for a handout.  If there's going to be something for everyone, I will probably be inclined to look for my "fair share", whatever that is.

Your share will be the same as mine, check please....

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

My brother and myself were discussing the Big 3 situation last week and we both feel what needs to be done is for the ever fabled consolidation to happen. Something that's been tossed around for some time is the combining of all 3 auto makers into 1 company that doesn't compete against each other on a domestic front, but together as 1 powerful company on a global market. Decide which model in each catagory is the best and improve it by taking the best features from the overlapping/competing vehicles (and getting rid of those other vehicles all together) would create vehicles that were far more competative on the global market. If the best of what each company has to offer in designers, leaders, manufacturing processes, engines, specific vehicles, etc. was brought together into 1 company the chances of success would most likely skyrocket. There are still the issues of mis-management and waste, but that could be worked out in a consolidation.

Sure it's great to have a ton of choices in Domestic vehicles, but making sacrifices by having less choices in a model category and having better vehicles would make up for that and provide more dependable vehicles with more possible customizable options as well.  

[r1owner]

I havent been the same since the breakup... 

fyi I bought used... I supported the economy more directly buying my Acura then you did buying a pontiac 

but if ya wanna dig deeper... my TL was manufactured at Marysville Autoplant in Marysville Ohio...    (and the TL line has been made there since 1999)

All good points.  With all the parts being made all over the world for each manufacturer, I really do wonder if there is that much difference made to our economy when chosing domestic/foreign over the other.

I guess for me, any profit made on my car stays in America, but then one can argue about the fact that the car isn't actually produced here, so taxes paid to workers that would of assembled it here are lost.  Or course, any profit seems to line the pockets of the CEO's anymore which makes me sick.

Have there been any good studies about buying something made in America via say Toyota vs a domestic car made here?