I wanted to get some opinions on the new way CCS is running their wave starts. Instead of sending in the waves, there is just a big gap and everyone goes on the first green....
I'm kinda torn, Makes for better competition..It's easier to make up 30 ft. than 3 secs. but safety wise, There is a crap load of bikes going into turn 1.
Not bitching or anything just wanted to get some feelings on it.
Also why all of a sudden the change. I just noticed this the beginning of last month and bunch of guys and myself got meatballed for starting on the 8th row instead of the 18th.
:pop:
Well, that's not a wave start.
There are lots of gapped starts, but they aren't considered wave starts.
They still run wave starts AFAIK. They certainly did at Road America.
if the grids are big enough they'll do a wave start. Hell even the some of the LW races at road america were two wave starts
What really sucks is when they have a two wave start for an am only race! I had to start from the 2nd wave at VIR a couple of years ago.
The gap start kinda sucked at barber because i suck at starting and the good starters started throwing slow experts back at me by turn 5 of the first lap. :(
Come on Sig.... I liked throwing the slow white plates back at you guys cuz I sucked after lap 3..... I couldn't hold my concentration and pick out my references. Grrrrrrr.....!!!
BTW... I would like to say that Greg got a great launch one of the races Sunday..... :thumb:
ah hahaha....he sure did.......
Hey does this look familiar?
http://www.cycleaddiction.com/images/herekittykitty.jpg
So it's not a wave start......
Am combined with Ex race with 40 total bikes, and one green flag.... Maybe that should be a wave start.
Quote from: Sig on August 15, 2007, 02:43:51 PM
The gap start kinda sucked at barber because i suck at starting and the good starters started throwing slow experts back at me by turn 5 of the first lap. :(
Go expert and register early is the only thing I can tell ya.
Quote from: r1owner on August 15, 2007, 10:13:54 AM
What really sucks is when they have a two wave start for an am only race! I had to start from the 2nd wave at VIR a couple of years ago.
was that your 4th or 5th AM season???
:lmao:
I single class race with multiple wave starts is BS. How is it considered fair when the guy you are supposed to beat gets a green flag 10 seconds before you.
Quote from: red900 on August 15, 2007, 07:52:38 PM
I single class race with multiple wave starts is BS. How is it considered fair when the guy you are supposed to beat gets a green flag 10 seconds before you.
Yeah, it was tough to take. Just too many bikes. I would rather be safe then worry about it though. I figure if you're that serious about winning, you'll prolly be pre-registering anyway.
Quote from: red900 on August 15, 2007, 07:52:38 PM
I single class race with multiple wave starts is BS. How is it considered fair when the guy you are supposed to beat gets a green flag 10 seconds before you.
Ever see 60 bikes going into T1 at the same time? Carnage usually is the result. Been in one like this. Lets just say it was rather "fun". Not to mention DODGING the bike sliding on the ground and the rider tumbling while having 15 or so bikes in teh vacinity.
I guess I would rather take that chance. Unfortunately it is defined as attrition. If ya cant take the heat, get out of the kitchen.
This is just another reason for qualifying.... not pre-registry
I'm pretty sure the Heavyweight races at Road America were single wave starts with the Amatuers being released at the same time as the Experts, either that or there's some Amateurs out there that are capable of getting to Turn 3 at the same time as me (when they wouldn't have got the green flag until I was at Turn1). I personally believe ALL AM / EX combined races should be 2 wave starts - even if the delay is minimal - it gives the Expert field time to straighten itself out before the Professional Amateurs try and get as far up into the Experts as possible. I could care less WHO passes me, this is purely from a safety point of view, the majority of all the close calls I have are with some of the fast Amateurs who are trying to bonzai their way up thru the Expert field at what seems to be any cost. If they want to race with the Experts so badly, they need to get their race license upgraded!
Just my OPINION guys, I'm certainly not bashing Amateurs as a group, just pointing out something race control may not be aware of! :thumb:
Mike,
Another aspect you may have not considered is that it can also be a good idea to minimize the gap between the first and 2nd wave for safety purposes - especially on shorter tracks.
I was encouraged to do this by Kevin Elliott while starting at MAM .
The thought here is that by keeping the gap between 1st/2nd waves as short as safely possible to get everyone thru the 1st turn, you also reduce the number of lappers that the 1st wave leaders encounter as the race progresses.
So its kind of a double edged sword - as much gap as possible to get everyone thru turn #1 - and at the same time as little gap as possible to limit the number of back markers that get lapped.
Just another consideration to throw into the whole mix!! :thumb:
I agree with GSXR in that combined AM/EX races should be two wave starts. One of two bad things can happen between people who aren't even actually racing against each other. 1) A fast AM gets a good start and gets pinched by a slower EX and lose places in turn 1. 2) on the other foot if two ex riders get separated by a AM who gets a killer start, now you've got to get past that guy to get to the guy/or girl that you are actually racing against. The delay doesn't have to be much, even 3-5 seconds would be sufficient.
And again I think grids should be posted by regional points and then pre-entry
Theres my 2/100th of a dollar for today
Quote from: GSXR RACER MIKE on August 15, 2007, 11:46:21 PM
it gives the Expert field time to straighten itself out before the Professional Amateurs try and get as far up into the Experts as possible. I could care less WHO passes me, this is purely from a safety point of view, the majority of all the close calls I have are with some of the fast Amateurs who are trying to bonzai their way up thru the Expert field at what seems to be any cost. If they want to race with the Experts so badly, they need to get their race license upgraded!
Professional amateurs? I think that's a little unfair. What do you propose they do, slow down?
It's not about racing the experts at all. The amateurs are running their own race, and can't afford to get held up by the back of the expert field. When I was an amateur, I tried to pass the experts as cleanly as possible, but when you're battling for a position in traffic, or trying to get away at the front sometimes things get a little sketchy.
Some of my scariest on-track experiences happened when I was cut off by a slower expert who didn't want to get passed by a yellow plate. I never understood it.
If an amateur runs you down from the second wave in four laps, he's faster than you by a long shot. Don't try to slam the door on him. Concede the position and move on with your race. (I don't mean you personally, Mike. just generalizing)
I agree that the fast amateurs should step up. I did it voluntarily, as soon as I had the required points. I saw no point in chasing Curt and Marshall around all year, they had me covered anyway. I moved up because I wanted to improve.
BUT, it's a two way street, if you're a way off the pace as an expert, CCS should ask you to step down. I know it's unpopular, but it would solve the problem we're talking about.
I think it would be cool if we could do one of the old school grand prix starts where you had to run across the track to get to your bike!
I'm with r1. Lets do the old school gp starts.
Quote from: Redbuell on August 16, 2007, 03:33:49 PM
I'm with r1. Lets do the old school gp starts.
Hehe... upon further reflection... I think we'd have to have qualifying times for our 30 foot race across the track. You DEFINITELY don't want the slowest dude on foot on pole position. He might get run over by some young fast (on foot) dude just getting to his bike!
Quote from: red900 on August 15, 2007, 07:52:38 PM
I single class race with multiple wave starts is BS. How is it considered fair when the guy you are supposed to beat gets a green flag 10 seconds before you.
It is B.S. I started from the 3rd wave, yeah thats right, at VIR this year and ended with a bunch of top 4's. If i was rich and could afford to preenter 3 months ahead of time, but for now I'll start in the back and live with it just like i did at roebling and Barber. Its fun comin through traffic but sometimes i would like to take an easier approach!
Technically, they could use transponder times to determine the winner. They should have total time. Although starting from the back you'd still have issues such as passing people slowing you down that the pole sitter would not have (assuming he's fast enough to stay in front).
Darned if you do, darned if you don't :banghead:
As race director in the MA & SE regions, I have been setting grids based on track density, Typically, if if there are about 1/2 the density entered in a given event, I have used a space break in lieu of a 2 wave start, without regard as to whether it is a combined or single class event. The goal is to provide competition and challenges for everyone. Any ideal start will have a steady stream of riders entering the first turn at most tracks. We are less successful on 2 wave starts.
At Barber, a space break was employed for the USGRPU and one of the middleweight AM events, even though the entries were above the mid point of density. At tracks like Carolina Motorsports, there isn't enough front straight to do that.
Some of the longer term competitors can recall the "good old days" of 80 bike 2 wave fields at Daytona, I know I didn't enjoy starting in 79th in one event, but had a great time not finishing last :biggrin:! The same folks can tell you a Le Mans start (no electric starters guys) is down right scary.
I think this once again leads to the never ending debate about HOW people should get their experience for racing. The Amateur class is for learning racing, the Expert class is for those who already walked that path. The variable which has greatly disrupted that balance in the last 8 years or so has been people gaining race track experience in non-racing situations then going into racing already having some degree of speed, but not racing experience to go along with it. That is the very reason I encourage people who want to get into racing (who already have motorcycle experience on the street) to only do a few non-racing activities (at the most) at race tracks before they actually go racing (as an introduction to the track and the general race track environment). The reason for this is the very situation that I run into on a constant basis, some fast Amateurs who learned how to go fast in non-racing environments, but sadly have very questionable passing ability. The reason I prefer a person to get into racing with minimal non-racing race track experience is so they can develop their passing abilities as they develop their speed. Having one ability developed without the other is dangerous in my opinion, it certainly doesn't promote safer racing, if anything it can lead to more dangerous situations because those people are now going alot faster (while lacking an important ability) than they would have if they had developed their abilities simultaneously in an actual racing environment.
At Road America I was at the back of the Experts running times that were about 110% that of the fastest laps turned in those very classes. In the AMA that cut-off percentage would qualify you for the Superbike class (and this is after the AMA has progressively lowered it's percentages from 120% not that long ago). What I'm getting at is there are alot of Amateurs now days who are able to not only get within 110% of the fastest Experts times in a particular class, some are only 2% or 3% off the pace of the fastest Expert on the track at that time. At what point is it time for someone to make the step up to Expert (mid-season if need be)? Those fastest Amateurs should be Experts starting in front of me, not behind me in the Amateur field, then the number of true Amateurs the Experts would have to deal with coming from behind would be minimalized or even possibly eliminated. And if those people who are running that fast are not up to par as far as their 'racecraft' goes then that's further proof as to what I previously said.
I don't have a vendetta against Amateur racers or non-racing racetrack activities, I just find it frustrating that more people can't seem to make some of these connections as to the 'causes and effects' of different things involved in this sport. I've watched 2 major things happen with the Amateur classes since I started racing in '96, one is the obvious speed increases as non-racing activities on racetracks have become more and more popular since they started becoming popular around 2000, the other is the combining of almost all classes now so the Experts and Amateurs are on the track at the same time (believe it or not Amateurs and Experts use to run their classes seperately). If the Experts and Amateurs were running seperate races again I wouldn't really care how fast they were going, but when it's an issue I have to deal with at every event it concerns me when I have very questionable passes being attempted on me by racers who are not even racing against me. It's sad to me that some Amateurs are that fast, yet don't understand how to pass safely in an actual race environment. If the Amateur class was actually filled with racers who weren't running Expert lap times this very topic about wave starts wouldn't even be an issue.
That's my OPINION, bash away! :thumb:
*EDIT* I was wrong, the AMA Superbike qualifying cut-off is 108%
The issue at barber wasn't that I was running expert lap times, it was that a good deal of experts weren't running expert times.
I think that a 39 at barber isn't an expert lap time. *shrug*
I am both an LRRS and a USCRA official up at Loudon. For the most part, a single class has not been divided into waves. Our rulebook calls for heat races to set the grid in case a class is split. Another solution was to just run two races with two sets of trophies. Since our riders are divided into Expert, Amateur and Novice, we are less likely to have an oversubsribed class. Except for Motard, Novices are separate from the Experts and Amateurs. Experts and Amateurs are always separate waves.
We use gaps in the grid for USCRA. I am the Hot Grid Marshall and I have the power to deviate from the printed grid sheet as I see fit when lining the bikes up. The problem is, when you send two classes off in a single wave, the slow guys in the first group are going to be messing up the fast guys in the second group. Swap their places on the grid, (First group behind second group.) and you'll still have the same problem. It will never be eliminated altogether, but careful thought must go into the makeup of the grid.
Loudon is a tight track, and when the first Suzuki money races were held in 1986, the 1100's were gridded in front of the 750's. It was discovered that the 750's got around the track much quicker, so after a few weekends, the 750's were switched to the first wave.
My observations at Loudon are that as soon as Control says that Turn 1 is OK, the next wave almost immediately gets the green flag.
GSXR Mike, who is going to teach the amateurs proper riding technique on the track? Are you going to take the time out of your day and go over to the amateurs you notice on track and talk to them about particular issues you may see? A perfect example happened this past weekend when an myself and another amateur were racing for first place and we came out of a corner and split an expert. He took the outside line and I took the inside line. As we approached the next turn we were almost side by side with my front tire about even with his gas tank... He had the inside line so I assumed he was going to maintain that line and continue through the corner, only to find out that he was going to cut across the track at a 45degree angle and hit his turn in marker before bending it in... Hmm, where does that put me? On the ground as he folded my front rim in half like a taco when he clipped me. This is the type of thing that happens when someone is not taught to maintain your line when entering a corner. I teach this at every event to beginners while I CR at Nesba who is going to step up in the race environment and do this while learning by your methodology?
Quote from: red900 on August 21, 2007, 09:45:36 PM...we were almost side by side with my front tire about even with his gas tank...
And this is unexpected in amateur racing?
Racing is different than a track day, and one needs to expect very unexpected stuff during a race. Passing rules are pretty much based on who ever is in front is in front.
Things are taught, but the trick is that new amateurs have to actually learn. That is the trick.
Give me a freaking break Dave. That is a load of Sh**..... Tell me that every race you are in you don't put yourself in positions that could, if the other rider did not continue to do what they were doing, put you on the ground. Don't try to pawn this off as some amateur racing and that experts don't take the exact same risks.
Of course we all have to prepare for the unexpected, but seriously how much can you prepare for? Prepare for everything and you will not even step foot on the track. In my opinion, which everyone seems to disagree with because I have cheated my way through this season and I am one of those asshole CR's with nesba, is that a new person to the track cannot be expected learn everything on their own in a race environment, and needs feedback as to track etiquette at a minimum.
I will tell you what dave, you would not have done the hair brain move this guy did... Why, because you understand what implications it could have on both riders not just because "you are in front therefore you have the right to weave all over the track"....
Quote from: red900 on August 22, 2007, 05:55:34 PM
In my opinion, which everyone seems to disagree with because I am one of those asshole CR's with nesba .....
10 points for Dustin for a correct statement :thumb:
:kicknuts:
Quote from: Burt Munro on August 22, 2007, 09:10:33 PM
10 points for Dustin for a correct statement :thumb:
:kicknuts:
Oh great, now the peanut gallery has joined... Pipe down over there..
:)
:spank:
I didn't even feel that smite!
:thumb:
Quote from: Super Dave on August 22, 2007, 08:30:21 AM
And this is unexpected in amateur racing?
Also, I forgot to add that there was 10ft of space between us, he crossed the track at least 10' at a 45deg angle.. We were not elbowz and knees
Quote from: red900 on August 22, 2007, 05:55:34 PM
I will tell you what dave, you would not have done the hair brain move this guy did... Why, because you understand what implications it could have on both riders not just because "you are in front therefore you have the right to weave all over the track"....
So, did I say he had a right to weave?
No.
Does it happen in amateur racing?
Yes.
Amateur racing is rough because of things like your example. I fully recognized what you're talking about (the ten foot thing). It doesn't make it right, but it happens. One should expect the unexpected.
In expert racing, you generallly know who you're racing with and what to expect. It is different.
Good luck!
Quote from: red900 on August 22, 2007, 05:55:34 PM
Of course we all have to prepare for the unexpected, but seriously how much can you prepare for? Prepare for everything and you will not even step foot on the track. In my opinion, which everyone seems to disagree with because I have cheated my way through this season and I am one of those asshole CR's with nesba, is that a new person to the track cannot be expected learn everything on their own in a race environment, and needs feedback as to track etiquette at a minimum.
Well, I agree with you. There is a minimum etiquette. As an example, there's a minimum etiquette for leaving the track. In expert practice, I just about got balled up at the exit of six by a rider in July. But, etiquette is only etiquette. Is is reasonable and safe to do those things? Yeah.
Did you talk to the race director? I has to be the minimum thing we do as racers to when that stuff happens. Some times that stuff is happening to other riders. If no one speaks up, well, it may never get to the guy.
That is the way I feel Dave, Thank you for clearing up your opinion. I was confused a little..
The went right to the guy, and talked to him about it. I am not much of a middle man guy, I go right to the source. He started out very defensive, but softened up and started listening after a couple minutes. He is a good kid, very fast, just a little unruly....
Hense my original comment. I do not think that second hand information through the race director would have sufficed in this instance because this was not a one time incident, this guy had no idea what he was doing could be detramental. A race director would have lost the point in translation. He has always thought it was just fine to do that.... I would have cought it at a track day, and explained it to him right after the session, who is to do that at the race track?
Hey, no problem.
I'll usually go to the race director. I'm a small show, and I don't have much of an opportunity to waste time. Additionally, if there's a problem, usually, it works a couple ways: it's an isolated incident or its a thing that happens all the time. If it happens all the time with a riders actions, the race director is hearing about it from other riders.
I might be hard on people at times, and I might even be hard on Bill at times, but when these things have happened, he's been very, very good about handling them immediately.
It still sucks for you, I know. :cheers: