Okay, now I don't claim to be a top notch rider (we all know better), someone to expect special treatment, nor a racer that knows everything. I generally like to stay as far away from drama as possible, but I feel I need to post the poor taste in competition, bad judgements and lack of professionalism that I noticed over this past weekend at the Daytona ROC. I rarely post, much less negative posts...but I am worried if I don't say something, no one will, and events like Daytona will not be as much fun for the majority of the racers in the future. I want this to be taken as constructive critcism, not a slam on anyone in particular, or a 'woe is me' pity party. I began with this organization, but am seriously considering not returning due to these concerns.
First off - I was far from impressed with the fact that there were factory supported riders/team competing in CCS races. Who agrees with this? I would like for someone to explain to me the fairness of putting a full blown front running AMA rider/bike, or a two time World Superbike & AMA Superbike champion, in a club race. In my experience (which is limited) these club racers bust their rears (and their pocket books) all year, competing with an organization, to try and gain points/championships/grid positions. They work damn hard to make it to Daytona in hopes of a National Championship and some purse money (which is pocket change to professional racers). What is the benefit of pro racers tromping on the club racers, and collecting the contigency money and national championships? I can't believe that any pro racer would be really excited to get a CCS championship after all their outstanding accomplishments in the AMA or world level racing. How fair is it to run factory supported equipment (with a considerably larger budget) that runs in top level racing, against the grassroots club racer who either builds his own equipment or has a local shop do it on a shoestring budget? DiSalvo, Yates, Duhamel, Bostrom (etc) seem to have no problem pulling off the track to allow these club racers thier well deserved wins. What is the difference in this weekend and those riders? Why were these racers even allowed to enter those races? I'm sure AMA guys wouldn't be stoked if Rossi or Hayden brought their MotoGP program to am AMA event! How can we ensure that the guys that make a valiant effort for a entire season, in one specific organization, get a fair shot at what they have worked for? Can we make this an event where it is 'invite only', based on points, to guarantee competitive racing? I think more involved racers need to brainstorm on this...
Secondly - I was extremely miffed (to say the least) that considerably higher entry fee's are paid for ASRA events, only to get all of the qualifiers taken away. I thought we pay that higher fee for the extra track time of qualifying, and to run a premier national event...or am I mistaken? I don't find it to be very professional to run a national event, expect the competitors to be professional, but set the grids by points and entries because of time constraints. Now I don't have as much of a problem with those same AMA riders competing in the National ASRA events, but I do have a problem with them starting at the back of the grid when there are a number of riders with lesser equipment and experience in front of them. Especially when they could have at least had the opportunity to be properly gridded in qualifying sessions. I understand there were red flag incidents causing a delay in the day...but, is there a way to plan for a time buffer in case of these delays? If the qualifying sessions had been cut down to 10 minutes, it would have taken a half hour to squeeze them in...it only takes one flying lap to get where you need to be. We all know there are delays in racing, but can measures be taken to incorporate all the events on the schedule? Maybe remove the 10 minute 'dog and pony' show on Sunday before every national race, and incorporate qualifying into Sunday morning...or take practice times from Saturday or Sunday practice? I feel that a riders meeting could have been conducted (possibly during lunch), or at least the top points holders could have been paged and asked their advice/opinion on how to meet the projected criteria. There is much room for improvement...
Thirdly - the lack of lap times, untimely grids, inconsistent scoring, and lack of time given to organize a protest were very frustrating. Why was there an inconsistency in posted lap times? I am not overly concerned with this, but the fact that racers were not even allowed on the track without a transponder (even sent back to their pit and missed practice) makes me wonder why it is a double standard. If there is transponder on the bike, there should be a lap time posted.
As for the grid posting...it got a little strenuos commuting across the paddock numerous times, within one race prior to mine, to get a grid position. I didn't notice it so much until Sunday, when I had 6 races to compete in and was trying to get the machines set up, while repeatedly checking on grids. Not all of us have crews to run and do multiple tasks for us...
Onto the inconsistent scoring and protest times. I understand there are always going to be discrepancies in scoring, whether it is electronic or manual. Completely understandable. But, when final race results are posted a half hour after the last race, and we have a half hour to protest it, and the race track security is kicking everyone out of the paddock...how are we supposed to file a protest? Especially on Sunday if we are involved in the last races of the day and have multiple machines/equipment and no crew to load up? I was extremely upset when during the Superbike race on Sunday, the rider in front of me doused me in oil, after grenading his engine, and causing a red flag...only to find out that he had been scored ahead of me in the results! According to the rulebook, he was to be scored at the back of the results (page 17, section 1a & N5). Woe is me, hindsight is 20/20, and I should have been more thorough in my follow up...but it's kind of difficult when I have security hovering over my sponsor and I while we load.
All in all, it was a fun weekend and I congratulate all of the national champions for their stellar riding. I also want to thank all of the corner workers for their outstanding tenacity in the heat...without them we wouldn't be out there. And I also want to thank all of the CCS/ASRA people for continuing to run this event...I just feel that things could have been run smoother (as they have in previous years). This event felt disjointed and thrown together, and I know you guys have a ton of experience. I hope the future brings more cohesion into this organization and that entry numbers go up...but everyone has to pitch in to make it work. Again, please take this as constructive, not destructive.
I am now off my... :preachon:
Rhiannon Lucente CCS#66 ASRA#66
I agree 100% about the AMA and ex world champ riders!!! Can't do anything about it because CCS will take anyone's money anytime to include a weekend that is supposed to be a CHAMPIONSHIP weekend for the regular CCS racers. The almighty $$$ rules.
About the lack of time. Once again.....TOO MANY CLASSES, repeat, TOO MANY CLASSEs, repeat, etc., etc. Again because of money. More classes, more money. I'm still waiting for the Bagger class, it has to be coming soon because there are a lot of people that like to go fast on their baggers and what the hell CCS may as well give them the place to do it.
Also the track rules it's own track. The MOTO-ST endurance was going to run no matter what and not in any shortened form. so, the qualifying got shut down so there would be no conflict at all with the endurance race. Correct? It appears time ran short and CCS racers paid the price so the endurance would run on time and full length.
Like you, I'll get off my :preachon: now.
hmmm....just a thought, have the Roc at the most agreed on track too the club racer so they- dont all show up for the easy $$ and national title. I know it would never happen but as an example, geoff may wouldnt show up @ bhf or another regions track.
Honestly I have to say I was pretty upset to say the least when qualifiying was terminated. The only reason I even came to the races was for the ASRA races and when that happened I was ticked. I started from the 3rd row since I did 1 ASRA race weekend earlier this season and got some good points. Now I get really good starts so 3rd row wasn't looking too bad. I was 5th & 3rd in both Superbike & Supersport into turn one. Now if I was gridded where I was running the race would have guranteed have been a whole different outcome for me. I was stuck behind Ryan Pattersen in the superbike race as we were running 2 seconds slower per lap than when I finally got around him since he started on the front row. The front pack got away and I tried too hard to make it all up in the corners and I hit my engine cover and crashed only to remount and still finish 8th.
The extra track time would have been nice too as I didn't get much.
Figure out this one? I got called to registration 5 minutes prior to my 2nd practice session on Friday because I supposedly didn't have an ASRA license? I raced at Road America earlier this season and finished quite well. They said I couldn't ride on the track until I got it taken care of. So I missed my practice session so I could go ALL THE WAY TO THE OTHER SIDE OF THE TRACK? at registration and pay a $25 upgrade fee. I checked when I got home and I have receipts saying I paid for the full ASRA license in the begining of the season?????
So all I had was a whole 4 laps of practice prior to racing the Team Challenge on Friday!
I have to say that Barney & May were on some very fast equipment out there but so was I. I'm guess I'm not at liberty to say who should be in the races or not. It felt normal to me since I run with these guys at the AMA level. It was nice that the rest of the AMA regulars weren't in it. It is a little frustrating since Barney & May & Beck where there on their AMA stuff with crews backing them. I though Jeff Wood was enough to deal with at a normal ASRA race. But in all it makes me a better rider and it raises the bar on competittion at ASRA events.
As for those guys racing in the ROC sprint races, I call b.s. I didn't even run those race because I didn't want to take away from anyone elses championship. I suppose those guys were using it for extra track time. They should have still pulled off then.
Well that only shows that:
A. The semi factory team riders are not getting paid enough so they have to race any races they can to make money.
B. They just don't care about anyone but themselves.
C. There are tons of reasons as to why they did it but all in all I really think they should have not been even in those races period.
There should be a CCS regional series rule that states: Anyone who is currently in the top 10 in points in a Professional racing series cannot enter a CCS event.
Even AMA has a rule like that stating you can't practice within a given amount of time if you are in the top 10 in points.
ASRA is there for fast guys. That's the reason it exist. It's CCS's National series and if they want that to grow then anyone should be allowed to run that. I they limit to only certain types of riders the series will never grow.
Its such a hard call when Manufactures are paying out purse money in the ROC events. Hey, who couldn't use and extra couple thousand dollars?
:preachon:
Jeremy,
So if Geoff May didn't show up, the safety first guys would. Or Larry Denning, Sean Conrad, Robbie Jensen or any one of another half a dozen cherry-pickers.
It sucks, and it's much like I said before, a pro boxer beating up a group of 3rd graders, but ultimately, that's racing.
Truth is, there will pretty much always be "someone faster" who shows up. So ride your ass off and enjoy your accomplishments.
I'll tell you what, I ran my fastest laps EVER at BHF in a middleweight race this year. What did those 12's get me? 7th place out of 9... 7th freaking place for a race of all low 13's, high 12's... In most heavyweight races or GTO, those times would put me on the podium...
I hate comparing organizations...but another very successful and professional racing association, that I ran this year, put on a final event (just like the ROC) and they require that you are in a top percentage of points to even get an
invite to the final! Fully preventing anyone that hasn't raced with the organization to just enter on a whim. I myself made sure I competed in at least one CCS/ASRA weekend this year. I understand the $ side of it, but there has to be a balance between business practices and fair/ethical racing...or the entry numbers will considerably drop (or so a few racers mentioned this weekend).
Also, I don't fully understand the necessity of the 'dog and pony' show prior to the ASRA races. AMA does that for media/television purposes. This could be used as the time buffer for qualifiers, considering qualifying was already only 12 minutes per session...cut qualifying to 10 minutes (the same as the count down clock for pre-race grid) and squeak them in right after lunch. Or at least take practice times, considering we were not even allowed on the track without our transponder. I got screwed on practice time for that one...had to go all the way up to my garage to retrieve it with no more time left in practice when I came back (woe is me, no biggie). Again, hate to compare organizations...but yet a different racing association (not the one mentioned earlier) had time constraints this year, had a
riders meeting, and still managed to shuffle enough to squeeze in qualifying and all of the races.
I think Daytona is a great venue for the ROC, just that things need to be revised a bit. Like Gordie stated
Quote from: weggieman on October 25, 2006, 07:26:10 AM
TOO MANY CLASSES
I only bring this up as I have seen similar discrepancies in other racing associations, and they were addressed efficiently. I only hope that positive changes can be implemented to make events better for everyone. I know not everyone can be pleased, but a majority can be...
As for Denning, Jensen, Conrad, Farrell...they build their own bikes, are not factory supported, nor have a salary other than contingency! They work hard, ride hard and are talented. Not too much of a problem with them out there as they are running thier own one man programs. That is racing! But FACTORY SUPPORTED BIKES and WORLD SUPERBIKE CHAMPIONS STILL ON DUCATI PAYROLL have no business in a CCS race. And yes, Jensen and Denning were out there this weekend...Conrad would have been if it weren't for a broken Tibia. Jensen deserves that Ducati money, not Polen...that is his only paycheck.
There will always be someone faster, yes...but give the CCS guys a break and let them dice it out amongst themselves, not behind pro racers. I agree with Farrell...great idea.
Handlethiss66, the only problem with your logic concerning the gnf is that the top guys could enter just one regional, win, and get an invite to RA
Sheeeesh!!! Alright already!
I promise I won't run another CCS race this year. You kids can have all that purse money.
Wow, all ya had to do was ask.
Russ
(#47, with NO top 10 finishes, EVER)
Russ! Check your email :-)
Jeff, I checked it.
Nuthin in there cept MILF Hunter emails, and V1AGR4 messages.
grrr.. ugh. I replied to you a couple of times in your yahoo acct.
Shoot me a good address for you or call me 262-993-5416
Thanks!
jeff, i was only meaning there could be alot less cherry pickers thats all, there really is no solution to this your right other than an invite only wich in turn would keep our grids a little higher through out the year
i think you should be in the top 10 (or 15...whatever) in any region to get an invite!!! it is the race of champions... not an "open" event :wtf:
your right rob the only thing is the turn out would be low.
So you make it mandatory that a rider has to compete in at least 3 regional or two ASRA events in order to get an invite to the ROC. That at leasr makes them qualify in some way rather than just show up at Daytona and cherry pick.
And Russ, '07 is your year for top tens buddy. Is the bike back at Valley yet?
im new to ccs as of this past season, but i think that something should be done as far as gridding by points. some of us cant afford to pre reg for all the races. other than that i like racing with ccs and will be there for 07 no matter what the rules say.
I agree with you totally on the time issues... grids, protests, etc. It all boils down to TOO MANY CLASSES. I don't understand why there are so many, I know that CCS wants to give everyone an opportunity to race, but surely you can expect them to conform to a tighter classing structure. If someone really wants to race they'll enter a race regardless of how competitive their bike is. If you're finishing mid pack in LW supertwins, what's the difference in finishing mid pack in MW supersport? Do we really need superbike AND grand prix? They are essentially the same. Pick one name or the other, allow the purpose built race bikes in it and call it a day. Maybe entry fees will increase a bit, but they'll hopefully be offset by the higher contingencies available. The same $ divided over fewer classes should allow bigger payouts and paying further back... not to mention you don't have to worry about grid minimums.
On the subject of pro riders competing I have a different view. I like the opportunity to run with them. In big money races (ROC) I think there should be a rule that they have done some other club races first, but that's it. You'd be surprised, but most of those bikes aren't that much better than the ones you and I ride. They are where they are because they are very talented, not vice versa. Sure, all they worry about is racing and they don't deal with the headaches that we do, but if you want to be where they are you are going to have to run with them despite their advantages. Look at what May did to get where he is!
Other than the fewer classes thing there could be an improvement in the way CCS views their racing. CCS officials all care about racing and the racers... no doubt. It just seems, IMHO, that they don't realize what a marketable product they could have. I know we race at a lot of non-spectator tracks, but we also race at a lot that do allow specatators. Sure there are going to be a host of logistical issues, but if that's what it takes to make this sport less expensive (and, gasp, maybe even a little bit profitable), I'm game. I know it's apples and oranges, but the Moto-ST event ran smooth as glass... with EXTRA practice time. I could hear all the mayhem going on over the PA system for the CCS events and I felt for all of you.
I'm just like the Cubs: wait till next year...
The Mighty One is at Speedtech in Oshkosh, b'gosh.
Russ
5076
Many of the reasons we do this are the same, some are different. I have been trying to grasp just how much better these nationally (and internationally) accomplished racers are, and seeing them in a race against people I recognize locally helps. Some say this is unfair. I find it very entertaining.
So, we have some good points.
1. Require racers to run a mandatory number of CCS races, or accumulate a certain number of points, to be invited to the ROC.
2. Grid by points throughout the season, not by pre/post entries.
3. Eliminate repeating classes.
4. Decline entry of CCS races if a racer holds a top ten points status in AMA Pro Racing, in any class, within a year of the event (including all CCS events, not just the ROC).
5. Utilize the ASRA pre-grid time as a buffer for red flag incident/weather related delays, to ensure qualifying sessions.
6. Implement marketing tactics into spectator events to generate interest/revenue.
One other thing I did overhear from a few of the ASRA racers during another race this season, was the grueling race schedule for Sunday's events. Racers competing in the contingency paying events seemed to be running a number of back to back races, with minimal time (less than sufficient) to get their bikes teched and off to their next race. It became a bit of a melee, with not much time for even a drink. I know of at least one racer that brought this up to race officials and am not sure if anything will be done about it. Just another coal to throw on the fire...something to mention about event scheduling in the future.
Quote from: cardzilla on October 26, 2006, 05:37:56 AM
On the subject of pro riders competing, I have a different view. I like the opportunity to run with them.
As for the pro's, that is why there is a national series. I don't have as much of a problem with pro's running a qualifying based race with ASRA, that is what it is there for. It is my understanding that the CCS races are based on a 'shootout' of the top running regional racers...hence the grid by points basis. Let the club racers that have worked hard all year long get the opportunity they deserve to win some money and a pretty trophy. Especially considering they have day jobs and can't concentrate on developing their riding 24/7. Leave club racing to the club racers...if you want to run with the 'big boys' enter the ASRA series, that's what it's there for.
All of these ideas, of course, are subject to modification. I am putting this out only because I have heard some very negative feedback within other racing organizations, CCS/ASRA racers themselves, and potential sponsors/contingency companies. I am just as guilty as the next to participate in the 'post race bitch session', and am finally taking the initiative.
As I don't have the time to follow up on all of this, considering this (currently) is no longer my primary competing association, I hope that someone will be able to continue with the effort.
Maybe a statement of change can be written up and sent to CCS/ASRA, and the ball can start to roll to make things better for everyone in 2007.
Why complain about who shows up to race? If CCS & ASRA allow it, then it is allowed. If a dealership or some private individual calls up an ex-GPSBKBSBMFJ whomever who hasn't raced in 10 years and offers them a chance to ride their personal - shop - exwhatever bike for a one off ride, what would any of you do? By God you'd show up with your gear and have some fun. I see the guy who finished 2nd was club professional cherry picker for life Robert Jensen, jeez I feel bad that he lost a race and didn't get all the money. I think it is cool to see former champions go out and have a little fun. Maybe it shows how high the bar should really be set?
Don't raise the bar any higher I have trouble reaching my drink as it stands.
I agree that Geoff May shouldnt have been allowed in the CCS races. He's riding a fully supported Suzuki Satellite Team bike. I believe at the AMA Grand Championships, if you held a AMA license or any pro license you couldnt compete in some of the classes. For Example, they had the normal Expert MWSS and then a Semi Pro class for the guys who had the pro licenses.
On the too many classes issue, why not get rid of ALL of the superbike classes? They don't pay manuf contingency and they're the same as the GP classes wich DO pay manuf contingency.
Quote from: TTR174 on October 26, 2006, 01:29:34 PM
Don't raise the bar any higher I have trouble reaching my drink as it stands.
try standing on the bar stool, thats what i do. :biggrin:
seriously, when are they going to allow step stools on the starting grids?
QuoteI think it is cool to see former champions go out and have a little fun. Maybe it shows how high the bar should really be set?
+1
Quote from: Ducati23 on October 26, 2006, 11:02:17 AM
I see the guy who finished 2nd was club professional cherry picker for life Robert Jensen, jeez I feel bad that he lost a race and didn't get all the money.
Ahem, Jensen isn't a salary paid rider, nor does he ride factory supported equipment...I believe he buys his own motorcycles and pays for his season with the contingency money he earns. Not really considered cherry picking when he builds his own engines, wrenches on his own bikes and runs his own program...he pretty much does it solo (with the help of only one mechanic). Got no problem with him out there. Got a problem with factory supported, salary paid, front running pro racers racing in a club event with true club racers. There is a partitian between CCS and ASRA for a reason...I know of one organization that makes it a little more difficult for AMA cherry pickers to tromp on regional racers during the last event of the season. Let the AMA guys go play in ASRA, that's (sort of) what it's there for. And why is so difficult to pull off the last lap of a race after schooling the club guys...nearly all other AMA pro's do it.
Quote from: Ducati23 on October 26, 2006, 11:02:17 AM
I think it is cool to see former champions go out and have a little fun. Maybe it shows how high the bar should really be set?
So let's throw the club racers in World Superbike and AMA Superbike to see how well they would fair...c'mon guys/gals grab your gear and let's have some fun, we're raising the bar! I'm sure bosses, wives and financial advisors would fully support that decision...
Some people race for a hobby, that is the point behind club racing and the idea behind
different levels of racing competition...to separate the hobbyists from the pro's. Which explains the difference in track locations, entry fee's and media exposure. The average person that spends $30,000 a year deserves a chance at a piece of the pie, too (at least a fair shot at a trophy for the mantle).
Hey I have an idea, let's get Rossi and Elias out in CCS for a little fun...who wants to get lapped 6 times? That will really raise the bar for club racers!
:spank:
I'm sure Rossi could really use the lunch money!
Yeah, tons of issues down there at Daytona. Too bad. Cancelled qualifying for ASRA!? :wtf: screwed up THAT schedule?
Sounds pretty indicative of money troubles; AMA racers don't make shit so they cherry pick CCS/ASRA/WERA stuff. Oh wait, they're not allowed to cherry pick at the GNF?
Daytona would've been nice but I ain't seen one dime of the Michelin contingency money I won. :lmao:
QuoteHey I have an idea, let's get Rossi and Elias out in CCS for a little fun...who wants to get lapped 6 times? That will really raise the bar for club racers!
I would love to see these guys racing/riding at a local track. But you're right, no point in trying to race them.
Maybe if time allows, these really fast guys can just put on a demonstration race or something to wow the crowd.
I like having the pro racers out there...but I wish that they would pull off and let the guys that have been racing CCS all year get their moment of glory. I was disappointed that Polen never showed at the award banquet to collect his trophy and at least recognize the org that just lined his pockets with 8k of ducati money.
As for Jensen and Denning....they abide by the conduct that deserves a National title.
Quote from: funsizeracing on October 26, 2006, 04:35:21 PM
try standing on the bar stool, thats what i do. :biggrin:
seriously, when are they going to allow step stools on the starting grids?
If you take your step stool to the starting grid, what are you going to use to get on your bar stool? :)
"Because even if they pull off on the last lap and let you win that kind of defeats the purpose. I never show up to a race thinking "man I hope they let me win". Kind of takes the "race" out of racing."
That thinking is exactly why John would tell them to not pull off although I don't believe he tells them anything of the sort. They want the Suzuki money and will stay on to win it. Their reasoning is relatively simple.
Also, if you really think you won't read about news that involves his team you haven't been reading RRW for very long....
could not understand why the 8 hour st race went off without a hitch but our $100 ASRA races had qualifying totally scratched. I was no threat to the front row but as expensive as it was to run every lap around that track, I wanted every minute of track time i could get and rightfully deserved. Out of an 8 hour race what harm would it have been to have moved it back and hour but ran till 9:30 instead of 9pm..That way have given us an hour of Q time but only delayed the end of the 8 hr event by 30 minutes.
I agree 100percent but i really don't think it will improve .
Quote from: HandleThis66 on October 26, 2006, 10:15:11 AM
4. Decline entry of CCS races if a racer holds a top ten points status in AMA Pro Racing, in any class, within a year of the event (including all CCS events, not just the ROC).
So, you'd eliminate a guy like Robbie Jensen?
As an amateur, you're not gonna get any world or national pro level riders in your event. As an expert, you're an expert.
I, honestly, prefer to have them in the race. If Rossi showed up at Mid-Ohio with an R1 for the Superbike event, I know that Mladin, Bostrom, Spies, Wood, Haner, etc...wouldn't care what his name was.
Ah, then there was Blackhawk 1989. Suzuki Cup money, and Scott Russell showed up with his Yoshimura 600 Katana. We didn't care. We just set out to do what we could to beat him.
I can understand limiting ROC to some kind of points thing, but if an organization needs money to pay for the track rental...they will take amateur and expert riders with only a few points. Invite select riders, don't just solicit entries from all riders.
Dave, Did you beat him at Blackhawk- Scott Russell???
I shouldn't have, and I didn't. We had an ignition pick up problem all year that I didn't recognize until I was done racing it. I got fifth, got invited to the Suzuki Cup final. Ray Yoder gave him a run for his money though.
Quote from: Ryan125 on October 28, 2006, 12:56:58 PM
Look at sean posting on here. hey didnt you say there was no competition in ccs/asra races.
Probably, what's your point?
Another thing to consider is that the factory guys and others that are "out of our league" run a pretty significant risk in getting on the track with us. You think it's bad weeding through amateurs or experts at your level? Consider theirs...
If you get taken out, well, sorry, your hobby is on hold for now. If they do (which they have a much better chance at in these races), it can easily end their way of making a living...
Shae Fouchek took out Aaron Yates in preseason testing at the beginning of the season this year.
Yeah, it's a big risk.
Then may I suggest they stay at the pro races where they belong.................. I certainly wouldn't want to see anyone get hurt picking cherries.
My thought as well Gordy... There's a reason I play in a certain sandbox and not in others...
Moto-ST was regarded as the main show on Saturday, and as you can see from NASCAR on TV, they start when they have it published and we had to make certain the corner workers had time to get their one and only break in their 14 hour day. So ASRA qualifying was cancelled after CCS/ASRA Experts continually crashed on the warm-up lap, the first lap and even the cool-off lap of the mornings races. We had 4 hours to run 2.5 hours of racing and qualifying (the same cushion we use for a whole day of racing at BHF or VIR) and we couldn't get it done. Since we had only 36 minutes to complete qualifying, we felt it was better to cancel all class qualifying to make sure the corner workers got their luinch break.
Gordie, you know there is no way to cut classes unless you want to pay more in entries. What is now an average of $52 per entry would have to be $75 per entry, then with fewer classes you would expect longer races because you paid more and that would just take up the time saved by the reduction. (You wouldn't leave the races at 8 laps no one wants to see three hours of dead track time because there were no delays and we finished the schedule ahead of time.) Then as soon as some one crashed hard and caused a lengthy delay, you are faced with the same dilemma, cut laps, cancel races, etc...etc... and you have the same discussion.
When we cut Sportsman out of the CCS lineup, we lowered the number of races we needed to squeeze in and lengthened the races to 10 laps. The first thing riders did was vote to return to 8 laps...we're dammed if we do, dammed if we don't.
I must take responsibility for the problems with the timing system. When Bill and Claudia Ritger had to bow out of working the ROC, we were left short handed and we shuffled our staff to cover their absence. (Claudia runs the electronic scoring system.) I was busy working with the new DIS personnel and didn't follow through on checking the scoring set-up until it was too late. My bad. Once we figured that out we were providing lap times just as we always have, and if they were missing no one notified me in scoring so we could correct it.
Rhiannon, ASRA races cost more because there was a guaranteed purse, $2000 cash, which sometimes is more than we get in entries. Why do we do it? We do it to try to improve the opportunities for our better riders, (Wood, Jensen, Denning, etc., even Rosno) to earn some additional cash and contingency to continue to fund their racing programs...for us ASRA races lose money, just like F-USA lost money for Clear Channel..we do it for the rider. Spectators, there are a few, but too few to mention as a serious source of revenue for ASRA. (We get a 30% increase in credentials at an ASRA event versus the normal CCS race at the same venue.)
As far as Doug Polen and Geoff May, you can blame their contracts with Ducati and Suzuki for allowing them to compete and earn the contingency money. I can guarentee that no matter what number of race requirement we came up with, someone that wants that money will do whatever it takes to get it.
I too am disappointed that neither rider chose to stay and accept their awards, just as I am disappointed in every CCS National Champion that didn't come to the presentation. The riders that had to leave and left speeches with someone else at least had the good graces to recognize the importance of the accomplishment and good sportsmanship.
I am open to any realistic suggestions that can fix these "problems",
How honorable is it for Doug Polen and Geoff May to win a CCS race? I've met Doug Polen before and even had a chance to ride with him. I don't understand why (I may regret typing this) he would take money like that from club racers who have worked so long and hard all season to be at that race. How honarable or ethical is that? I've only been racing as an amatuer in the club scene thus far but is that proper racer etiquette?
Nic,
I assume both had their reasons. Perhaps they needed some extra cash. Maybe they were told to enter and win the race by their employers. Maybe, they needed a boost to their ego and did it just because they could. Its not my place to judge either of them. They entered the race, they ran the race, they won.
I'd think May understands how tough it is as a privateer relying on meager winnings and contingency earned from racing to fully understand the impact of his decision - given this I hope he didn't do it just to pick up some extra pocket change to blow at the corner bar. When he was a privateer he always seemed to look down upon the professional contingency chasers as beneth his goals to be a top running AMA professional... Then again, what's he being paid by M4 and how important is it for him to supplement the salary and performance bonus he is paid in order fully concentrate on being in shape over the winter? This also begs the question, are the non-factory but well funded teams stuck in a world where they can't win - no chance to actually take championships at the AMA level vs. factory teams and riders yet too good to run at the "Race of Champions" and show what they can do there?
Polen - well, he is in a completely different class than either the referenced AMA team or the professional contingency chasers we see at all the money paying club races. I don't think he would go into our sandbox and kick sand in the faces of children unless he felt it was his only option. I don't know if its true but I've heard rumors that unlike many of his counterparts he never really was in the place to bank the big bucks so he needs to worry about supporting his family. To this end, he has a set of skills and he followed the rules - if he does need the money to support his family is it really unfair that he came out to play with us?
It does suck that neither had the goodwill to make an appearance or say a few words at the awards ceremony. I'll forgive them for the action on the track, but the lack of good graces makes me think less of both of them
Just my thoughts,
George
Kevin,
I think eliminating a lightly attended class and raising fees a bit may not be the bad you think it is. A lot of racers are tired of the mass of classes out there.
Yes, more laps would be a plus and I guess expected due to the fee increase but then cutting laps wouldn't be so drastic when the time is needed due to red flags, etc.
Quote from: CCS on November 01, 2006, 10:03:48 AM
Gordie, you know there is no way to cut classes unless you want to pay more in entries. What is now an average of $52 per entry would have to be $75 per entry, then with fewer classes you would expect longer races because you paid more and that would just take up the time saved by the reduction. (You wouldn't leave the races at 8 laps no one wants to see three hours of dead track time because there were no delays and we finished the schedule ahead of time.) Then as soon as some one crashed hard and caused a lengthy delay, you are faced with the same dilemma, cut laps, cancel races, etc...etc... and you have the same discussion.
When we cut Sportsman out of the CCS lineup, we lowered the number of races we needed to squeeze in and lengthened the races to 10 laps. The first thing riders did was vote to return to 8 laps...we're dammed if we do, dammed if we don't.
I am open to any realistic suggestions that can fix these "problems",
I've always been for longer races and higher entry fees. Even back in 1996, I proposed this to Roger.
I don't know who asked to have ten lap races reduced to eight...
But also a couple of years ago, practice order was changed to experts first, then amateurs. This was done because "riders voted" for it. But, I'll have to say, sometimes it's only a minority that squeek. And sometimes they get the oil.
I don't remember any recent opportunity to make comments on race length for a few years.
Quote from: grasshopper on November 01, 2006, 12:34:02 PM
How honorable is it for Doug Polen and Geoff May to win a CCS race? I've met Doug Polen before and even had a chance to ride with him. I don't understand why (I may regret typing this) he would take money like that from club racers who have worked so long and hard all season to be at that race. How honarable or ethical is that? I've only been racing as an amatuer in the club scene thus far but is that proper racer etiquette?
Doug Polen has an expert road racing license, so he can race. Is it honorable to beat Doug Polen? Sure. It's reasonable to race against a world champion too...and loose.
Mat Mladin, Miguel DuHammel, and Jason Pridmore have all raced world championship events, but race AMA. Didn't Chris Ulrich win an AMA Superstock event? Yet he races in club races and endurance events.
Kevin Schwantz, 500cc World Champion, raced the AMA Formula Extreme event at Road America in 2004.
For me, I would just prefer to beat them.
All fine and well but, they did not race against privateers in a championship weekend and take away a hard earned season championship from anyone.
If Polen needs the money, let him come out on his privateer bike and race the series like he used to, earn a weekend at the ROC and nobody would bitch.
It sucks when guys on that level come into a championship weekend on near factory equipment and take away awards, prize money and contingencies from people who have worked hard for it all year.
What is so hard to understand about that? Racing against these guys on any other weekend probably wouldn't get people so upset but at the ROC it's just wrong.
OK, so it is a possibility to make a 40 hour round trip drive to ROC next October for a shot at the SuperTwins Nat'l title only to race against Neil Hodgson "setting up" Ducs for the '08 AMA season!? Take a look at the WERA wording for their GNF policy and adopt it, plain and simple.
Gordie,
I hear what you are saying, but after looking at the poll that was started on another thread, all I see is "as long as it's not my class they get rid of" so like I said earlier, damned if we do-damned if we don't... ::)
Dave,
It was the Mid-West riders that bitched the most about increasing laps.....2003 I think...ask Bill Fehrman, he was the one who had to listen to it...so did Dave Murray in the Mid-Atlantic....someone else said it best, maybe eight laps is long enough for the average sportsman racer.
oh well.....carry on gentlemen
Quote from: CCS on November 02, 2006, 01:20:02 PM
.....started on another thread, all I see is "as long as it's not my class they get rid of" so like I said earlier, damned if we do-damned if we don't...
I don't think much of anyone is laying claim to the GP class. In fact I think the vast majority are in agreement that GP, as currently defined, is a complete, total and unecessary duplicate of SuperBike. Since GP as defined makes no sense, I'd rather see it go away and the contingency passed to SuperBike.
But then this thread wasn't really about that, it was about validating the CCS portion of the ROC by only letting those who earned it race there.... at least for the most part...
Quote from: kwracer on November 02, 2006, 02:20:24 PM
I don't think much of anyone is laying claim to the GP class. In fact I think the vast majority are in agreement that GP, as currently defined, is a complete, total and unecessary duplicate of SuperBike. Since GP as defined makes no sense, I'd rather see it go away and the contingency passed to SuperBike.
The difference is superbike is based upon street legal bikes, so superbike is a more restrictive class. If one were to be dropped, make more sense to drop superbike and keep the GP classes.
Quote from: tzracer on November 02, 2006, 03:11:18 PM
The difference is superbike is based upon street legal bikes, so superbike is a more restrictive class. If one were to be dropped, make more sense to drop superbike and keep the GP classes.
Either way it has to improve things to drop one of them and either way ... this belongs in the other thread.
;)
Trying hard to understand and empathize with those who are upset with "cherry picking" at ROC, but I don't get it. Racing isn't there fundamentally for people to make a living at it. It's there for the competition. If you are one of the few who are good enough to actually make money at it, good for you. I've always heard the best way to end up with a million bucks in racing is to start with 2 million, or some variation of that. This is a very risky way to make money. There are so many things out of your control such as when the bike will fail, the weather, injury, and who is going to be on the grid. There is always someone who is faster. Anyone who meets the qualifications to race should be allowed to enter. Why should Polen be treated differently? I'm sure folks like Rob Jensen work really hard, but I'm sure he knows and accepts that he won't win all the time. Someone happened to be present who was faster. The only "guarantee" is that a racer will be challenged in this endeavor. Hopefully this will be a desirable and rewarding challenge. Have fun racing, whether you finish on the podium or not.
Quote from: goldwing70 on November 03, 2006, 12:15:41 AM
I'm sure folks like Rob Jensen work really hard, but I'm sure he knows and accepts that he won't win all the time.
No, he
expects to win ever time he turns a wheel in competition. That is the mindset of championship winners. When he does not win, he goes back to analyze why he did not make that result.
The point being made, and the one that was
not addressed by CCS, is whether "Pro" level riders should be allowed in club events, especially those paying contingency.
What would be best if Doug Polen himself were to respond, because then we would get the real reason from the horse's mouth. Until that were to happen, it's all speculation and theory.
Popped in for a quick visit and see that this thread is still alive and as yet has no resolution.
There are a ton of points to talk to, so forgive me if my thoughts jump around a bit or seem disjointed as I try to touch on them all.
First and foremost, everyone should recognize that there are obviously some things that need improvement, but that doesn't mean its all bad. I'll ask everyone to check their egos before reading any further, and become dispassionate about the subjects at hand. If we all do that, it will make finding a resolution (or at least a comfortable compromise) easier to find. I'm not looking to point fingers or lay blame on anyone. I'd also caution everyone to realize that there are no quick fixes, and that it will likely never be perfect. It can however be an endeavor of continuous improvement and refinement, which is a whole lot better than regression or stagnation. For that to happen, it will take cooperation on everyones part.
Sorry to hear that Rhiannon isn't looking to CCS to be her primary racing org any longer. I don't really know her, having only met one time briefly at BHF, but I hope she changes her mind as she seemed like both a good person and a competitive racer. That said, I can understand her concerns voiced about the ROC.
I've only attended the ROC once....and in a crew support role at that. Hell, I only recently attended the learning curves school this past September myself, so its not like I am an experienced racer either. However, I am a quick study, and have been around CCS racing long enough to make some observations and informed opinions.
First of all with regard to the ROC, CCS needs to decide what sort of Race it wants to hold in Daytona, who its being primarily held for, and bill it correctly. Is it a Race "OF" Champions, or a Race "FOR" a Championship? Its not simply semantics, they are two very different and distinct things.
A Race "OF" Champions is exactly that, a race "OF" regional champions crowned throughout the year, with the winner crowned as the National Champion.
A Race "FOR" a Championship is exactly that as well, a one-time-of-the-year event with the winner of said race being declared the Champion.
I believe I understand CCS's need/desire/whatever to allow anyone to enter this end of the year race. Surely their entry turn-out is a factor of the prize money offered, and the title given to the race winner. Which camp the rider/team falls into depends on their motivation for attending. Some likely attend simply because of the money, some because of the title offered, and some are motivated by both. Even the amount of prize money offered by sponsors may be contingent upon requiring CCS to allow anyone to enter (I certainly don't know). Either way, CCS desires to make the ROC as popular and profitable for themselves as they can, which is what businesses are supposed to do.
However, there has to be a better compromise than the existing setup of the ROC. Allowing just anyone to enter a Race "OF" Champions at the end of the year completely alienates your core customer...... those racers who throughout the entire season race CCS at the club level.
Imagine if at the end of the college football season, the Chicago Bears, the New England Patriots, and a host of other NFL teams decided they wanted to play in the college bowl game series. If CCS ran the show, they'd be perfectly welcome as long as they paid their fees and showed up to play. Nevermind they they were in a different league, had more resources, and probably were of greater ability or experience. Would it be even remotely fair to the college teams to have their bowl games usurped by the pros? If it was run by CCS, it wouldn't matter. Is it possible that on any given day Ohio State could beat the RAMS? Of course its possible...not terribly likely, but possible. But would it make sense to declare the BEARS Big10 and college national champs if they beat Michigan in the title game? Of course it wouldn't make sense...... And therein lies the problem CCS has because it hasn't properly defined what the ROC is, or who its for.
Knowing that CCS wants to; maximize revenue from the ROC event, wants to obtain as much in sponsor contingency/prize money as possible, wants to attract the best riders they can, and wants both to reward their club racers and crown a national champion, a series of compromises has to be made. Its either that, or you really should hold two different races.
Inviting regional CCS champions to a race for a national championship makes sense and is a good thing to do. Allowing other regional CCS racers to enter that race also makes sense. Its the last race of the year for the club, and those racers who didn't win regional championships (sometimes by very slim margins) may want to race one last time and argueably have a right to battle for a national title.
Allowing anyone else to enter makes sense, but with certain caveats. While you can't literally cater to everyone and their needs and will never make everyone happy, you can get much closer than the current situation allows. CCS would be able to have their cake and eat it too.
Here is what I propose:
Hold a race within a race, or two races in one, if you will.
Keep the current practice of gridding CCS regional club champions in the first rows by points. This maintains their reward for earning a regional championship throughout the summer, and entering the championship event. Grid remaining CCS regular club racers next by order of entry or by points if possible. Grid remaining racers, cherry-pickers, semi-professionals, professionals, or whatever you want to call them in the remaining rows by entry order or qualifying of some sort. If they really are that much better, then starting from the back won't dramatically effect the outcome of the race anyway.
Run the race.
First person across the line at the end of the race is the CCS Daytona Champion.
Second person across the line at the end of the race is the CCS Daytona Runner-up.
etc.
First CCS regular club racer across the line is the CCS National Champion
Second CCS regular club racer across the line is the CCS National Runner-up
etc.
In this scenario, it would be possible for a CCS racer to win both a National Championship title and a Daytona Championship title....IF they were good/fast enough.
Split contingency money between the "races within the race" on some type of percentage basis. For instance, if for race XYZ there is $20,000 in prize money:
Daytona Champion $7000
Daytona Runner Up $5000
Daytona 3rd place $3000
CCS Nat. Champ $2500
CCS Nat. Runner Up $1500
CCS Nat. 3rd place$ 1000
In the proposal above, regular CCS racers have an opportunity for both a National Club Championship and contingency money regardless of who enters the race. The CCS National Championship is awarded to the fastest club member. In turn, cherry-pickers, semi-pros, and professionals aren't denied entry to the race either, and whomever wins the race outright is awarded the CCS Daytona Championship and prize money.
Sounds pretty fair to me and is at least as attractive as the current situation....perhaps more so to club racers who don't currently attend because they believe they cannot fairly compete against the high budget teams that show up for the ROC.
So what do you think Kevin? Would CCS like some ice cream to go along with that cake?
If you're going to keep the current format, then by all means don't call it a CCS National Championship. Call it a CCS Daytona Championship. The former implies that it was the best of the CCS club racers which cannot be the case if you allow anyone to enter.
The second major point I'd like to address is the way in which events are run and the organization (or lack there of sometimes) of said events. I realize that many more things go right at these events than go wrong. I also realize that a majority of the races put on by CCS include a great number of volunteers and underpaid employees, and my hat is off to them for their efforts and dedication. However, this is particularly why having clearly defined responsibilities and processes is important.
Clearly defined responsibilities, and processes that are documented, communicated, and followed, help to minimize mistakes or problems. They also provide a starting point and a means to measure your own success for continuous improvement. In addition, having a well documented and laid out plan, with provisions for contingencies as they arise, would help make things go smoother and with less confusion.
I've only personally witnessed a few instances where the process was in question, made up on the fly, or inconsistently applied. I have heard many others relate experiences of a similar nature though, so it leads me to believe that its not completely isolated.
I know it wouldn't be easy, and it doesn't have to pass ISO 9000 certification standards, but having a standardized plan would go a long way toward increasing efficiency, lowering costs, increasing customer satisfaction, eliminating inconsistency, and making the events you put on a better experience for everyone involved.
Again, this was not meant in any way shape or form to be an attack on anyone.... simply trying to continue the discussion in a constructive way in an attempt to make things better than they are, if possible. After all, if CCS succeeds and improves, it benefits us all.
I understand eliminating some classes to make rrom for qualifying. But to complain about racers who are faster than you??? :whine: Come on people are we going to eliminate everyone who is faster than you so you can finish int he top 5 or top 10. If you can't handle someone finishing in front of you you have 2 choices get faster or quit racing. ::)
G2G you either didn't carefully read the previous posts, or you missed the point entirely.
Gordon (weggieman) probably stated it best:
QuoteIt sucks when guys on that level come into a championship weekend on near factory equipment and take away awards, prize money and contingencies from people who have worked hard for it all year.
Quoterace the series
Quoteearn a weekend at the ROC and nobody would bitch.
I've been under the impression (and evidently I am not alone in that regard) that the Race Of Champions held by CCS was a
club-level championship. If that impression is correct, then why on earth would you allow anyone who didn't participate in the club series all year into your championship event?
If the CCS Race Of Champions isn't a club level championship.... then fine, let anyone in, but don't promote it as a club championship.
Quote from: G2G racing on November 14, 2006, 01:32:57 PM
I understand eliminating some classes to make rrom for qualifying. But to complain about racers who are faster than you??? :whine: Come on people are we going to eliminate everyone who is faster than you so you can finish int he top 5 or top 10. If you can't handle someone finishing in front of you you have 2 choices get faster or quit racing. ::)
Bah! He's obviously trolling for Whiteys!! :blahblah:
Or, he doesn't know who Doug Polen is? WSBK World Champ 91-92?
Anyway, adopt the WERA GNF rules and regs regarding AMA/WSBK/MOTO GP cherry pickers for ROC then we can find something else to whine about! :biggrin:
Quote from: G2G racing on November 14, 2006, 01:32:57 PM
Come on people are we going to eliminate everyone who is faster than you so you can finish int he top 5 or top 10. If you can't handle someone finishing in front of you you have 2 choices get faster or quit racing. ::)
Being faster has nothing to do with it. The problem is that these guys (May, Polen) don't race the series. If they want to show up and kick our ass at regionals, fine, have at it. I'd love to say I shared the track with a two time world champion.
I'll admit to cursing every time I see Rob Jensen's motorhome in the paddock, but I'll never say he doesn't belong there.
He has beat a lot of factory riders in AMA races, and clearly is a professional, but at least he runs our series pretty regularly.
If Nicky Hayden could come back once a year for the AMA Superbike finale, and walk away with a championship that Ben Spies poured his heart into for seven months, would it be fair? They are both professional riders of reasonably close ability, but one races the series, one doesn't.
All they need to do is come up with a points minimum to earn entry into the ROC. It doesn't have to be rediculous, just enough to ensure that the riders competing are series regulars. Something like 500 points in either of the last two seasons would be fine.
never been to the ROC and i really don't see me going, unless i happen to do really good this year. but if i were to consider it and the reasoning for this post were still able to happen, i wouldn't bother with it. why bring a knife to a gun fight. hell, it's 20 some odd hours just to get there for me. why go somewhere you have no chance at all.
i think CCS should have the balls to step up and tell the AMA guys no even if it means they lose out on a few bucks. BUT ABOVE AND BEYOND ALL OF THAT... i think the riders need to have the nerve to stand up in the riders meeting and let those guys know how you feel. if you guys see people at that level there, get together in the pits, pick out the best talker of the group and just stand up at the end of the riders meeting and tell them that they are welcome to ride but you guys busted your asses all year to get there and do not want them to screw up what you've worked for all year and that they shouldn't finish the race. all they are doing is setting up for next year anyway. no one in ccs would argue with you besides those full year ama guys. tell them to pull off the track before the last lap. go to the team manager. whatever it takes. the threat of bad PR goes a long damn way. i do think CCS should manage events like this (all of them really) to benfit the "club racers" but it's as much the riders that need to look out for eachother as it is for anyone to expect CCS to look out for you.
but it all comes down to one fact... if they allow it to continue, they will lose more money from the lower level guys that over the years just say "f**k it" and stay home, than they will get from the small hand fulll of big names that show up.
but one guy did beat one of the ama fellas at black hawk this year didn't he? pretty sure someone did while i was there. i know they battled back and forth up front the whole race. i will admit, that was pretty cool.
Quote from: 251am on November 14, 2006, 05:43:34 PM
Or, he doesn't know who Doug Polen is? WSBK World Champ 91-92?
Yeah thats it ::)
I like the idea of telling them to piss off. Still, CCS should step up and do it.
getting the racers together to make a statement needs to happen PRIOR to the race, with CCS.
I havent read all the posts so it may have been broached... but here's an easy twist... only allow contingency to be awarded if you have X amount of points in that class compiled in that season. Its clearly a money maker... why would Doug Polen give 2 shits about a CCS national title? Thats like me going back and braggin that I can kick a HS kids ass! Yes for those much faster than me that chase that goal... kudos!! But the likes of Polen and May have moved past that.
what was the purse payout for the win combined with the Ducati contingency that Polen netted that one race alone? what about May?
Eliminate the opportunity for cherry picking contingency and you eliminate the problem. They can still show up and test equipment for next year... my bet is with no carrot they pull off last lap and let the race finish the way it should.
Sorry again if it was already mentioned... if it was than uh...yeah... I agree!! :cheers:
Tim, +1.
:thumb:
Why not move the location?
I know I will never go while it is at Daytona as I don't think it is a safe track, and its about 3,000 miles round trip for me. A more central location would make it more accessible to everybody and could increase participation which might solve the $$$ problem with excluding people that don't have CCS points.
Quote from: Jack_Brock on November 16, 2006, 12:56:24 PM
Why not move the location?
I know I will never go while it is at Daytona as I don't think it is a safe track, and its about 3,000 miles round trip for me. A more central location would make it more accessible to everybody and could increase participation which might solve the $$$ problem with excluding people that don't have CCS points.
Yep and Heartland Park is right in the middle of the country. Its a long drive, but I'd be up for it. :)
I would be more inclined to go to HPT. ( or barber) ..9 hours as opposed to many more to FLA....
HPT is is about 6 hours and Barber is... i don't know... much more worht the drive???
that's a hell of an idea too.
whitey_1964 has the best idea I have read. Have a Daytona Champ as well as a National champ in a "race within a race". You can see the fast guys and the regulars can still have their race.
Distance to Daytona is a barrier for me too.
Does anyone know how long it has been since Doug Polen actually raced competively?
Yeah, didn't Polen do 750 Supersport development stuff with Bridgestone a few years back? 2000?
I know that there were some rumors of him and Bridgestone and Honda doing something for 2004.
He raced a little with AHRMA in 2004 I think too.
Quote from: G2G racing on November 15, 2006, 03:17:47 PM
Yeah thats it ::)
Well, I didn't know. Didn't mean to offend you. Some folks here have only been on a bike for 2 or 3 years and don't know much history-you are not one of them I guess.
Adopt vocabulary of WERA's GNF qualifying per cherry pickers. BTW- What is that language per the RRW 50/250? Why weren't there more of these guys at THAT race where the overall wins $50K?
I'd make the trip for a Barber ROC too...
Good question.
Willow Springs hasn't had an AMA National in quite a few years.
Cost of a 200 mile race is high.
MotoST was a draw for John Ulrich's team also.
Quote from: Clarkie on November 16, 2006, 11:40:17 PM
Does anyone know how long it has been since Doug Polen actually raced competively?
Well, I can show 1999 at the latest, FUSA at Pocono. He was on the podium with Michael Barnes and Josh Hayes. I think he actually won.
(https://www.ccsforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fresthome.50megs.com%2FPolen.jpg&hash=c714f21cee1fe14edd537a96a503bc0dc5c7ac9b)