To everyone involed...and they know who they are , first off Iam sorry, Iam also sorry too CCS for my actions on sunday as well. Now for the explination. As you all know it was a very fustrating year and wanted to go out and have fun one last time before hanging it up for quite possibly the end of my racing for a while, and in the first GT race I was stuffed prettyhard by an Am, and forced off the track in the last turn, thats 1. The second time off the track was in seven, when after my own fault, as to not looking the bike over well enough after plowing into the sand trap from the first incident, it losend up my front fender and wasnt tight. It (the fender) went under my front wheel and there I went in seven into a low slide, hence saturday night putting the front end back togather. Day 2 While out on the warm up lap of one of the early combined races I came into the last corner fowllowing Andy F and was stuffed off the track again by the same person and gatherd it back up went to grid, mind you that was a warm up lap. 3rd and final time was running for 4th place trying too pass Ryan Hall I was yet again stuffed very badly agian by the same person and made very minor contact with the tires and ran into the sand trap for the last time. Then unfortunetly I lost my cool, and cut him off badly on the track and then I grabbed him by the helmet in the pits and shoved him just a lilltle and was pushed away by Larry and someone else. Agian Iam Sorry for this, it is not the way I wanted to end my year either but in my defense I wasnt the only one upset this last weekend with this and one other riders way of passing people - I think My good friend Edgar was stuffed bad and showed this person he was # 1 also.
My last comment to this situation is, you 2 guys are fucking fast and you know who you are, good luck next year and if you pass people like that agian, then I dont know what people like Brain Hall, Andy F, or DANO Ortega will do too you guys in the next corner.
Agian Iam sorry for the scene.
Jeremy Bentz 271
This is club racing and there is really no excuse for someone getting hurt over the size of a piece of wood. I too lost my cool over a pass I thought was a little sketchy, my response to the individual was probably a little too heated when I saw him in the pits but we later shook hands and I think we can still be friends.
Maybe we could use this thread to open a dialog on what a clean pass is and isn't. There is a lot of turnover in the club and with all the new people every year maybe we all need a little reminder now and then.
Well said Jeremy!
Good that you posted up, sounds like alot going on.
Hang in there.
Paul
Polar-Optics
MW#90
welcome to racing boys. unfortunatly i loose complete disrespect for people who loose their cool especially like you said for a wood plague. you just contradicted your self there. theres no excuse for screaming like an ignorant baboon. maybe your mother didnt hug you enough at night i duno.
Quote from: imafrogg420 on October 12, 2006, 01:00:56 AM
welcome to racing boys. unfortunatly i loose complete disrespect for people who loose their cool especially like you said for a wood plague. you just contradicted your self there. theres no excuse for screaming like an ignorant baboon. maybe your mother didnt hug you enough at night i duno.
It has been getting worse over the last couple years. Seen a spectacle in the pits at BHF but it wasnt from a racer, it was one of his entourage being an ass towards another rider who came over to apologize for colliding with him. Heard some rather disturbing comments about a rider KICKING at other bikes during a practice. Screwing up trying to pass someone happens. But kicking at someone IMO should result in a year suspension and if its a recurring problem, banned for good.
:wtf: You MW guys are F'n crazy! If need some pointers on how to piss off some of my fellow racers, I'll come to the MW!
Maybe it's another good reason to have separate AM/EX races.
maybe i just need prozak dave lol
Quote from: Super Dave on October 12, 2006, 08:24:57 AM
Maybe it's another good reason to have separate AM/EX races.
That's a good idea, but what if there's only 2 racers for one AM/EX race? Aren't some of the races combined because of small grids?
Yeah, I don't know. But it was a GT race that Big J was in...som I'm betting it was GTU or GTO. Combining those races has always been risky because of the traffic situations caused by the mixing of various kinds of riders.
Jeremy, maybe you need an enima. Get you all cleaned out. :ass:
Quote from: imafrogg420 on October 12, 2006, 01:00:56 AM
welcome to racing boys. unfortunatly i loose complete disrespect for people who loose their cool especially like you said for a wood plague. you just contradicted your self there. theres no excuse for screaming like an ignorant baboon. maybe your mother didnt hug you enough at night i duno.
I don't think he lost his cool cause of a plaque. It sounds to me like he lost his cool cause someone put him in a life threatening situation several times for no good reason.
IMO, if they (the passes) were that sketchy the person should of came and apologized. No excuse for the warm up lap stuffing though. If he was an ass when confronted, then maybe a beat down is the best thing that could of happened. I don't know since I wasn't there. We're only hearing one side of the story so....
That being said, the retaliation on the track is not cool. Why put both your lives at risk again? By cutting him/her off you just put more at risk than anyone should be willing to do to make a point.
Quote from: imafrogg420 on October 12, 2006, 01:00:56 AM
unfortunatly i loose complete disrespect for people who loose their cool especially like you said for a wood plague. you just contradicted your self there. theres no excuse for screaming like an ignorant baboon. maybe your mother didnt hug you enough at night i duno.
You "Lo(only 1 o)se" complete disrespect" and then speak of contradiction? Interesting...
Anyhow, I'll chime in on the thread...
Look, there's a difference between being "Fast" and being "Good". The 2 guys in question are fast as hell. Have been all year. Personally as an Expert, I'm not racing against them, so I make it a point to watch for them and let them by. They're racing each other, not me. I don't need to be in their way and don't need to dice with them. It serves me no purpose.
I will say that with no traffic, many people can be STUPID fast. Add traffic and sometimes those people make decisions that are not necessarily the correct ones simply because they are in the heat of battle.
Coming up into the Expert field and passing the top 5-7 guys gets difficult. The faster you go, the more difficult it is to pass. A lot is gained in experience which has little to do with laptimes.
Case in point, I was passed repeatedly in turn 6A at BHF (the tiny kink before turn 7). I wasn't actually "passed", it was more that I met a bike at the APEX of 6A twice this year. That's probably THE fastest turn on blackhawk, and at speed, it really narrows down to the point of being a very dangerous place to pass. I've never been passed there by the top expert riders, they will always wait until after this turn and get me into T7.
I understand that as a smoking fast AM, in a combined race, you need to get around people or the guy on your ass will get around you. I get that. I was that guy as an AM in 2002, running with Mike Chachere and Andy Feuersthaler, dicing up into the experts.. However, you really have to gain some wisdom on when it might be smarter to hang back for a turn...
I've seen it a lot over the years and don't know the answer. Perhaps that's why I finish 3rd - 7th instead of 1-3. I err on the side of caution vice "must pass this guy at all costs".
Separated AM/EX races would solve this particular problem, but the racers themselves also need to take a bit of responsibility. As the passER, you need to make damned sure you can safely get around that guy in front of you. As any racer, you might do well to be cognizant of your surroundings including who/what is behind you, and if it's not somebody you're racing against, let them the hell by!!
Marshall came by after the Heavyweight race and said how cool it was that I let him by (I was in 3rd place at that time). I simply told him that I had nothing to gain by beating him. I was racing against Deni & Tommy, not him & Curt. I had no need to make them force a pass or make a bad decision that would take us both out...
Don't know... Just some food for thought & comments...
Quote from: Jeff on October 12, 2006, 10:01:58 AM
Don't know... Just some food for thought & comments...
I agree Jeff. While I am not nearly as fast as the top running am's I do occasionally come up on some experts. The only time I would be more aggressive in going around them is when I have another am on my ass.
That being said I still like to think that I only put a safe pass on someone.
UH OK, and I didnt know he was there both times he stuffed me and on the warm up lap was it needed to be done there too?? I have no problem leting him by but to get stuffed like that 3 times....nice.
WOW, no comment. All I can say is I think they should not have combined races as I to get aggravated at some of the expert guys who try to race the amateurs when there is no point to it.
I like Jeff's philosophy on this point. Since we aren't racing each other, there's really no need for one to hold the other up. Let the person by so they can continue racing the people they are battling for points with.
Quote from: SuperSpud on October 12, 2006, 11:39:04 AM
I like Jeff's philosophy on this point. Since we aren't racing each other, there's really no need for one to hold the other up. Let the person by so they can continue racing the people they are battling for points with.
That's all well and good (and I agree), but I think it kind of falls into the same category as moving out of the left lane when someone behind you wants to go faster. :)
This is a tricky subject. I'm going to do my best to communicate, but sometimes it's difficult to express through a post. Here goes.
First, I can totally understand how high emotions run in situations like these. I used to be a bit of a hothead myself, and have been stuffed at a trackday in the kink at Blackhawk before so rudely I was actually walking the pits looking for the guy whose head I was going to remove. I'm glad I never found him. In retrospect, there was no bike to bike contact, and no blood no foul, but since it was only a trackday I felt it was completely out of line, dangerous, uncalled for and unnecessary.
That being said, there's no excuse for attacking someone in the pits, especially while they're on their bike trying to park. I wasn't there at the time, and I didn't actually witness the assault. I heard about it from a few other riders, and was pretty pissed. I know Curt Henderson personally, I've been racing with him all season long. He's an outstanding competitor, a hard nosed racer, and one hell of a nice guy who only makes all of us better racers. I've seen him put some pretty close passes on some people, myself included, but I've never seen a malicious act, or what I considered an intentionally dangerous maneuver. Just good hard close racing.
The two times, in almost one hundred races, that I've seen him make bike to bike contact with another rider, he apologized to the other rider afterwards, and in his defense we were battling for the win in what we all agree is a dangerous sport. If he'd hesitated, he quite probably would've lost the race.
I myself have struggled mightily with passing all year. I came from a trackday background where polite passing is the rule, and stuff passes get you sent home. I've talked to several of the top experts about my difficulty in learning how to pass aggressively when the race is on the line, unanimously they all told me if you're going to wait to get by you're going to lose. You have to make the pass. And they're absolutely right. You do the best you can not to get tangled up, for obvious reasons, but this is racing and in a seven lap sprint there's simply no time to go to school on somebody. You have to get by.
I can't tell you how many times I lost races this year because I didn't feel like I could get by safely enough, or how many times I did a stoppie at the apex to avoid stuffing another rider. And with some of the defensive lines some guys run on these tiny little tracks we race, it can be a daunting proposition to get by at all, much less with no drama.
In two races last weekend, Curt and I were in our own battle for the lead when we caught Tommy Girard on the last lap. My unwillingness to stuff Tommy cost me the race. Twice. To Tommy, I have to apologize for the body language and head shaking I'm sure he recognized once I got by. I was so frustrated and angry, as my championship season was being negatively affected by a rider I wasn't even racing against. But that's racing. Some guys let you by when they know you're in a different race, other guys are too proud to get passed by a yellow plate, and some don't realize you're there until it's too late. Either way, it is what it is.
My feeling is now that we have trackdays everywhere all the time, people who don't want to expose themselves to these types of risks shouldn't be racing. I'm not saying it should be a free for all on track, certainly not, but if you can't handle getting stuffed in a race you should be track riding, not racing. There's a difference between close hard racing and rough riding. Curt and I have traded paint, rubbed elbows, and he's cut my nose off so many times I can't even remember them all, but there was never ever what I would call rough riding, only hard racing.
We all know how hard it is to make split second decisions at speed, and let's not kid ourselves, we aren't exactly the best in the business. Even Rossi took Melandri out, Hopkins took half the field out, Loris did the same thing, and these are the best riders in the world on huge wide tracks with a lot more to lose. Close passing is part of racing, and with club level skills and twenty foot wide tracks full of seams and potholes, shit is going to happen. If you can't handle it you're in the wrong game.
In practice, Ryan Johnson (sp?) on the red R6 came up the inside in T2 and spooked the shit out of me. I stood it up, caught a seam, and almost crashed, but it wasn't his fault. It was a totally clean, albeit hard and close, pass. I wasn't expecting it, I didn't know he was there, and I overreacted. And that was just practice. Later he apologized, and I told him there was no need. It was my bad. I just need to get more comfortable in that environment.
I've rambled on too long already, but I hope I've made myself clear in here somewhere. Curt is an awesome rider, and we all get better competing against guys like him. As my main competitor all year, I'd be the first to call him out if I thought he was at all out of line, and I've had the best view of most of his passes in about a hundred races this season. Like I said, there were only two times I ever saw actual bike to bike contact out of probably a thousand passes this season. Not a bad average when you think about it.
Congrats on all your championships this year Marshall. You worked hard for them. Cheers to that! Good intelligent post. It's going to be hard for anyone to argue any of those points.
Well said Marshall & congrats on a good year...
One word of friendly advice (unrelated to this topic). Don't for a SECOND, think that since you were winning everything in the AM ranks that the EX ranks will be as easy... You'll see the margin of error slim down dramatically. Make a mistake as a front running AM and it's no big deal. Hell, I've left the track and come back in the same spot. I've crashed, got up and STILL managed to catch the guys in front of me. As an expert, you'll find that (a) Everyone can launch a bike as good as you if not better, and (b) the tiniest mistake will cost you 2 places... :thumb:
Best of luck to a great future...
Thanks, Jeff. And I know exactly what you're talking about. I fully expect to have my ass handed to me by the front running experts. Battling with Curt has been anything but easy, but I know it's going to be even harder trying to snag a podium in any of those same classes as an expert. But that's how we get better right? Looking forward to it.
my final thoughts is asshole passing is untolerable but also being an asshole and retaliating is also untolerable. if you accidently stuff some one then you should apologize after the race and learn from your mistakes. were only human every one makes mistakes. in my case i didnt even know i "stuffed" the other rider. i preceeded to give him a thumbs up on the cool down lap cus i thought everthing was cool. i was then knocked back by his attack on me. so we should all talk to eachother and be friends not fight were all here to have fun right?
Everyone has a threshold for their temper. Sometimes it gets crossed. A majority of the time, in retrospect, they are embarrassed and would have acted differently.
Just be careful out there, and if you pass your threshold, hopefully you have enough people around to keep you in one spot until you become rational again.
Marshall, I'm sure you and Curt will be up in the front. It just won't be anywhere near as easy as one might think. :cheers:
Just as they have a subjective view of what "stuffing" is versus a tough pass.
I wasn't there to see it all, but I can say that I've been passed by and seen Curt pass people and I've not seen anything I would consider dangerous either. Not that I've seen him pass that many people, cause he is usually too far ahead! I've never heard anyone complain about his passing either. Well, except for when he went across the track at Gateway, but I think he was just along for the ride on that one! ;)
Quoteexcept for when he went across the track at Gateway, but I think he was just along for the ride on that one
uh yeah... that was "interesting" LOL
saw it coming from the exit of 4 so I wasnt suprised when he crossed back over near 5... than could have gotten ugly!
I think its important to realize that some people are in this for different reasons and a midpack expert may be a bit spooked when a yella plater sucks the paint off up the inside under braking... shouldnt, but its not expected at that point (however many laps) into a race.
I'm with Jeff, I'm not too proud to be passed by an am... could have petitioned to stay yella myself... and typically if one comes by I try to see if there is another coming (or 2). like Jeff said, I'm not racing them!!
Tim
It has always been my understanding that stuff passing was acceptable under race conditions, even practice to some degree. Bikes bumping bikes is a bit much and should not happen but at times stuff happens. Aggressive stuff type passing in racing is all a part of it. If you chose to race you have to accept it as part of the sport. I don't necessarily like it - but it is racing.
Quote from: Garth on October 12, 2006, 04:55:55 PM
It has always been my understanding that stuff passing was acceptable under race conditions, even practice to some degree. Bikes bumping bikes is a bit much and should not happen but at times stuff happens. Aggressive stuff type passing in racing is all a part of it. If you chose to race you have to accept it as part of the sport. I don’t necessarily like it - but it is racing.
In my opinoin, any pass made that forces the rider being passed to take an evasive manuver to prevent contact or a crash is an offence that warrents an apalogy from the passer. This does not include riders who are spooked by the pass.
I guess i will just ride track days now, i dont know what hard racing is anymore...???thanx for the explination.
And let me explian this easier this time....
1. last turn, passed agressively by very good Am, ran me high, into sand trap, off bike.
2. same turn, same person, ran high, into sandtrap, fucking warm up lap. and i still wasnt pissed at this point.
3. battleing for 4th..... excuse me Marshell, RIDING for 4th because i dont know hard racing anymore, I know smart racing, last corner front and rear tires touch end up in same sand trap, from the same guy.
4. Fatkid gets angry, does uncalled for act, hence apoligy, we are now here in this thread.
jer271 you should man up. If a an AM passed you in a what you think was a dangerous spot you should learn from that mistake. An AM is an AM because he is going to make mistakes. You shouldn't measure AM's with your yardstick of experience in the first place. Alot of AM's think pass at all costs when an EX thinks through things a little bit better and it becomes a chess games when you are going to pass. Getting angry is not the way to do it. I had another EX passing me pretty aggressively in practice and asked him politely when he comes around me in practice that he should alter his line because most practices that day I was working on something. There is no room for the hotheaded person in a sport that we rub elbows with each other. When you become a hot head you lose trust from other racers and thats one thing we cannot afford to lose in this sport, trust.
Well u give an apoligy, say u did something wrong, explain the whole storey twice, and still i have too "man up"
I only posted what happend to avoid the, "thats the asshole that grabbed Curt in the pits" I give up
I havent raced this year, but I feel like I dont want to run another rider off the track...
not once, and definately not 3 times....
And I'm not a hot head, but there are serious injuries going around out here, and if you win a race
or a championship, because you won this particular race...
but the guy you ran off the track 3 times ended up with no more career because he flew head first into some tire wall...
doesnt add up..
I think the passer would lose trust...
and I dont see how I would tell the passee to man up...
:err:
40
Holy crap racing is dangerous? Who woulda thought? I think it takes a special breed to go out and race a motorcycle, sorta bordering on the insane but always trying to push to the outer edges of our fear or rationality. I can prove it becaue if we didn't do this how would we get any better at it? While yes crashes do happen and most often is not the fault of the person that crashed, if you can't accept the fact that racing is a dangerous and deadly sport maybe you shouldn't be racing.
Whatever, I was explianing what happend and apoligized for my actions, now acorrding to some of ya I should find a new hobby.
There is a certain level of risk we all accept. There is also a level of courtesy we all EXPECT. The courtesy of "no, you can't pass me?" no, that's not what I'm talking about. The courtesy of "don't knock me off the fucking track to get around me" is the one I expect...
This year I had 2 crashes. One when I hit a guy going into a corner, and one when a guy hit me going into a corner.
When I hit the guy and went down, he stayed up. I was kinda pissed because he fucking parked it in a manner that was absolutely unnecessary. But hey, that's his choice, I was dumb enough to follow him in and ended up ass packing him. I went over and talked to him about it and apologized for hitting him.
When I got taken out at ACC, it really pissed me off, but shit, it happens. I accepted the apology and talked to the dude about some riding concepts which would benefit him. I didn't get angry with him or anything because I had calmed down at that point.
Bottom line that I guess I'm trying to point out is that we all make mistakes. Jeremy, I'm not faulting you, but maybe you should have chatted with Marshall or Curt on Saturday vice waiting until you got so mad you couldn't contain it anymore. Talking will get you through a lot where getting physical with someone generally doesn't get you what you want.
Jeremy,
I don't know who you are but I must thank you for manning up and apologizing for your actions.
In my opinion, this is racing and close passing is expected, sometimes even in practice. I don't condone any action that could even be deemed dangerous. I have been guilty of putting others at risk during practice by taking out another rider. This incident was a poor decision on my part and believed at the time that I commited to pass that it was a safe move.
I now race with a lot more wisdom and allow room for my fellow participant to make it even though we may not be racing each other. I am on a smaller bike in the LW F40 and come up many times on the faster bikes of the HW F40 racers. At these times it is some close racing and passing only to be repassed by the faster bike on the straights. I hope that I leave enough room for that other guy.
Mark
First I want to say I don't even know this Jeremy guy, but I do know Marshall and Curt and think they are very talented, nice dudes. I wasn't at Gingerman and really don't have any first hand knowledge of what really happened.
That said, this thread seems a bit silly to me. A guy posts up to PUBLICLY apologize for being an ass because he let his anger take over and made a very poor decision to take action on track and then attack the guy in the paddock. (Maybe not the best apology I've ever seen, but PUBLICLY admitting you were an asshat is not an easy thing to do.) In his original post he tries to enlighten fellow racers as to why he got so angry. (I would bet that most of us would like to explain why we did something embarassing.) Instead of everyone simply excepting his apology and moving, on he receives advice from a bunch of people who, I would imagine, have never been in his shoes. (Let's face it, of all the people that have replied to this post, who has been run off the track by the same guy three times in one weekend?) I think everyone of us might get pretty uptight and maybe excercise the same poor judgement.
I'm not posting this to speculate on who is right or wrong, or to offend/defend anyone. I'm simply suggesting we all except jer271's apology and move on.
thank you
and for the record, Jeremy is quite used to admitting he's an ass hat! LOL...
Hey Jeff :ass: :ass: :ass: :ass: :ass: :ass: :ass: :ass: :ass: :ass: :ass: :ass: :ass: :ass:
hugs & kisses...
i agree to publicly apologize takes alot of balls.
now we can all be friends haha
Quote from: jer271 on October 12, 2006, 08:36:53 PM
thank you
Congrats on getting back on the track this season! Apology accepted. (even though I was out on the track when the incident happened)
Hey JB, what was the deal with Larry singin' YOU a song after his "Big Fat Mama" tune? Are you and the wifey expecting a little pit man soon? There I was having my morning coffee watching the sun come up over the track and frosty bikes, when Larry starts singing about his big fat mama's pumpkin' head and knees like squash!! Priceless!! It was a great finale to a good season.
Expecting in December.
Quote from: jer271 on October 13, 2006, 06:37:14 AM
Expecting in December.
Congrat's congrat's... Now as far as this new hobby crap - your not going anywhere.....What are you gonna do - take up badmitton or field hockey? I don't think so....
If I can put my two cents in on this whole safe passing thiny.... There is a difference between someone making a mistake or screwing up - and then there is someone intentionaly screwing you up...... I think we can all figure this one out.... But I do have to say that after running a hand full of AMA's - coming back to the club scene is a tottaly different ball game...At the AMA level there is no such thing as a close pass - I have been purposley run off the track - bumped into multiple times in the same corner be the same person - and even brake checked (not a litle bit - but a full on brake check).... All i'm saying is that my idea of a close pass compared to someone elses is going to be completley different.... Oh then you have the whole thing about going at it with someone that you know really well - and you trust..... I have had some interesting passing games this way - because you both know the other persons abilities - this situation is to me the most fun......
Underwater BB Stacking.
cleaned out three times same weekend, time for an ass-kickin! lol
Quote from: Jeff on October 12, 2006, 07:08:50 PM
There is a certain level of risk we all accept. There is also a level of courtesy we all EXPECT. The courtesy of "no, you can't pass me?" no, that's not what I'm talking about. The courtesy of "don't knock me off the fucking track to get around me" is the one I expect...
Woah! That does it! Lock this thread now! If you have opinions, share them through e mail. there's no place for that here.
?????
Who whoa whoa, this racing stuff is dangerous...? Thats it I'm going sledding...does Kawasaki make a flexible flyer?
Quote from: TTR174 on October 27, 2006, 11:35:02 AM
Who whoa whoa, this racing stuff is dangerous...? Thats it I'm going sledding...does Kawasaki make a flexible flyer?
No way, racing is dangerous. Racing involves close passing. Who knew? Whats a flexible Flyer?
Here ya go.... complete with SuperDave aboard.
Sorry Officer, I didn't realize that this was a one-way street.
Sweet. Where's the motor?
Oh yeah, when you think you have enough gas, put in another 1/2 gallon. :biggrin: LOL.
Quote from: K3 Chris Onwiler on October 27, 2006, 12:45:34 PM
Sorry Officer, I didn't realize that this was a one-way street.
Hey, you shut up. Don't go and get another thread locked down. :kicknuts: :biggrin:
Quote from: K3 Chris Onwiler on October 27, 2006, 12:45:34 PM
Sorry Officer, I didn't realize that this was a one-way street.
It's not. it flows both ways. Always has and always will. Every now and again, like on any street, there needs to be a stop sign or other traffic control. I just personally don't care to be kicked in the nuts when we do something in the collective best interest of the forum.
Close passing is cool, geting stuffed off the track three times is what sucked
careful, son.
Quote from: Jeff on October 27, 2006, 10:30:56 AM
K3, STFU. you pompus prick.
See that X button in the upper right hand of the window? That's the door. Use it you dick.
can't we all just get along?
Quote from: russ1962 on October 27, 2006, 12:41:49 PM
Here ya go.... complete with SuperDave aboard.
LOL! Safety kills...
Quote from: K3 Chris Onwiler on October 27, 2006, 12:45:34 PM
Sorry Officer, I didn't realize that this was a one-way street.
Yup. K Street is One Way.................................................. :lmao:
Quote from: Jeff on October 27, 2006, 10:30:56 AM
K3, STFU. you pompus prick.
See that X button in the upper right hand of the window? That's the door. Use it you dick.
thank god i wan't takijng a drink when I read that
making friends and influencing people...........
Yep, it does pretty much suck when every ounce of a being is subject to scrutiny. I'll simply moderate as the team sees fit with no comment in the future. Justification seems pointless to some.
Blue flag yellow x on it lets you know leaders are coming by like in motocross and supercross
Quote from: Rad625 on October 29, 2006, 05:49:29 PM
Blue flag yellow x on it lets you know leaders are coming by like in motocross and supercross
We used to use blue flags, but the midwest region was the last CCS region to use them. CCS dropped it due to inconsistant use between regions.