Why AMA road racing will never be big time...

[251am]

 Gold Wings baby, all 897 glorious pounds of GL2400 screamin down the front. M4 pipes would be the only allowable modification. Ed gets first pick o' the litter cuz he da man. ::)

[tzracer]

I recall Ed beating Mark Junge at Road America a couple years ago, both on SVs. Mark's was WERA superstock legal. After thhe race, Ed commented that Mark is a great rider, he out rode Ed in the corners (Ed prefers to use a point and shoot riding style, rather than high corner speed), but he out rode Mark on the straights. Spoke to Mark about it, he had a great time, said it helped make him a better rider having to ride so hard to make up for what he lost on every straight.

Less weight is an advantage everywhere. Easier to turn, gains speed more quickly (higher acceleration), loses speed more quickly (higher acceleration).

I recall Yamaha (US superbike team - Jamie James riding) testing carbon fiber wheels versus magnesium wheels. On average James was 1.5s per lap faster with the CF wheels. I would call that a huge advantage.

Weight is only part of the equation, but it can be a very big part.

[Super Dave]

You're full of $hit, Dave.  I love ya, but I've gotta call you on this one.  I think you owe Dawn an apology.

Ride the bike...

You had a GSXR750 which probably weighs 390 and then has 120HP...

How close were your times to Ed's on his Supersport bike?  We could even it up and put you both at Road America...

You've still got to ride and set up the bike.

This isn't AMA racing at the club level.  You've got to execute.  Only time it's a different game is when there's some good money available.  Those who have been pounding the pavement hard working on set up will go faster than most of the local, every weekend CCS racers.

Again if the lightest bike and the bike with the most HP was always going to win...

Rossi wouldn't have won the world championship on a Yamaha, would he?

Rossi still has to ride the bike, and he had the wisdom to take his set up with him...his whole crew...

He wasn't able to take any HP.

[Dawn]

Forget it Dave....

Like I said in an earlier post....  

You must admit though, same bike and ability, Ed would still have an advantage because of his size over someone like Paul, Chris, or Don Cook.

You can pound your point all you want that we just need to ride the bike harder.  But it still takes a lot more to move Paul's 100+ pounds that he has over Key and Lacey.  This means more strain on suspension, motor and tires....

Paul races to his ability and gives it his all without balling it up every race.  You stating that he just hasn't stepped up to the plate to beat Ed is a bunch of crap.  

Sheesh Dave, open your mind to other schools of thought once in a while.  

Ohh.... EXCUSE ME!  I don't know what I'm talking about.   ::)  ::)  ::)

 >:(

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

Ride the bike...

You had a GSXR750 which probably weighs 390 and then has 120HP...

120 lb. Ed on a 300 lb superbike with 100 Hp.
250 lb me on a 390 lb bike with 120 Hp.
420 lb devided by 100 Hp = 4.2 lb per Hp.
640 lb devided by 120 Hp = 5.33 lb per Hp.
Ed ran a 1:13.  I ran some 1:15 times.
I'm thinking that with better setup and a weight reduction to 4.2 lb per Hp, I could go faster.  Could I beat Ed?  Hmmmmm....  I'd really like to think so, but I know better.  If at our best, our lap times were dead even, his 30 years of racecraft would leave me behind, cursing him with each new trick he pulled.  I would still have a lot to learn to give Ed a serious race.
But that's not the point.  You're trying to say that Ed's bike and weight advantage shouldn't matter.  They do.  Physics dictate that the lighter package will accelerate, slow, and turn faster than the heavier package.  You're wrong.  And saying that no one has decided to beat Ed is wrong too.  Lacey was mentioned.  He can beat Ed on the right day with lesser equipment.  Why?  Lacey is better at certain tracks than Ed is, and Ed wisely doesn't push as hard when he's not comfortable.  He's usually so far ahead in points that it doesn't matter, so why risk it?  
How about me or Buxton?  We spend what we have.  We get more any way we can.  We wrench and ride and study.  We sacrifice.  But we both weigh over 200 lbs.  If, and I do mean if, we could find a way to match Ed's power to weight advantage, don't you think we'd ride with every fiber of our beings to try and beat him?  If we could get close enough to watch, don't you think we'd hang on and learn all we could like Jesse, Mike Rebie, and Jeff Wick did?  Or are you trying to say that we just don't have the heart?
Give me a break, Dave.  You still owe Dawn an apology.

[G 97]

Forget it Dave....

Like I said in an earlier post....  


You can pound your point all you want that we just need to ride the bike harder.  But it still takes a lot more to move Paul's 100+ pounds that he has over Key and Lacey.  This means more strain on suspension, motor and tires....

Paul races to his ability and gives it his all without balling it up every race.  You stating that he just hasn't stepped up to the plate to beat Ed is a bunch of crap.  

Sheesh Dave, open your mind to other schools of thought once in a while.  

Ohh.... EXCUSE ME!  I don't know what I'm talking about.   ::)  ::)  ::)

 >:(

Don't make me call for this thread getting locked.  LOL  ;);D :)

[Dawn]

Don't make me call for this thread getting locked.  LOL  ;);D :)

LOL!!!!

Sorry Garth...

I get a little protective over family.

 ;)

[Super Dave]

420 lb devided by 100 Hp = 4.2 lb per Hp.
640 lb devided by 120 Hp = 5.33 lb per Hp.
Ed ran a 1:13.  I ran some 1:15 times.
I'm thinking that with better setup and a weight reduction to 4.2 lb per Hp, I could go faster.  Could I beat Ed?  Hmmmmm....  I'd really like to think so, but I know better.

Ok, let's cut to the chase...

Ed's bike is really set up.

You're not there.  

Let's get ride of the rider and see what the difference is...

Denning weighs about as much as I do, around 170?  Rides well.

He set the lap record at BFR in 2003 on his R1.  Let's say that his R1 weighs 370 and makes 140HP...that's 3.86.  

He went about .75 seconds slower on his R6 at 370 and 110HP....that's 4.9.

Similar gaps...  

I'm not sure how this all be came a club thing...

But spending money on a race bike doesn't necessarily give better lap times.  

And still the rider has to ride.  There are many "levels" of riding.  Where is one at?  Those are answers that one can claim rightfully or incorrectly.


When Jesse Janisch became expert in 2003, he was racing his SV.  I watch a race of his, and he came off the track and I met him there.  Looked at his lap timer.  He told me that he couldn't go anyfaster on that bike, etc., etc.

My response what that he was full of cr@p, and I told him so.  He could go faster.  He did in the next race.



So, you want me to sugar coat this or what?

I raced a bike for a few guys that built some vintage stuff.  Ain't like the new bikes.  They want to buy these new chassis and all...great, but until you've exhausted what you can do with what you've got...I don't see the point.

I've seen riders that have spent money on upgrades to equipment and go slower, no recognizing the ramifications of what they did, or what the feedback they received from the former set up.

I am always an advocate of the rider.  Everyone has the right to do what they may.  Experience is often something that costs money to learn.  

Every chassis and motor part receives wear and tear from use.  It's the tuner/owner/rider's responsibility to own up to making it work.

A few years ago, some of the factroy 600 supersport riders were racing in 750 supersport.  The AMA came down on them hard on weight.  The weight limit in 750 was higher than in 600.  The factory 600's had to add weight to their chassis to race in 750.  They could make the chassis better with that weight.  Faster?  Someone will have to go find the record books.  I think they did.

Racing isn't EOE.  I'm sorry.  Dale Quarterley was 6'3" and was 200 pounds.  When we needed to pull a motor out of his ZX7R, he'd straddle the frame and hold the motor while we put in the motor mount bolts.

I stood on the podium with him at Charlotte Motor Speeway for the AMA Superbike race.  He won an AMA Superbike race.  To Dale, size was an advantage.  Try to get past Dale in turn one.  Over course of a race, his size made is easier to control the bike because he had more strength.

I'm the nitpicker...

I started working with guys in 1989 to help them out.  I don't need to tell anyone how to counter steer.  But if I think that a rider can ride harder or if their set up is lacking...well, what do I say?  

Yes, absolutely, you're going as fast as possible...there is no way that YOU can go faster other than doing XYZ to a bike?  Usually, it goes...you're loosing time here because of ABC, and you're getting this tire wear.  What spring?  Thought about a heavier spring to support traction of this new tire?  Seems like you're not getting on the throttle here.  Why?  

[Super Dave]

Back to the originally scheduled question...

VIN numbers...

A few years ago, law enforcement agents arrived at a CMRA event at Hallett, Oklahoma.  They check VIN numbers against a data base.  They found some stolen bikes.  

What would happen to Yosh?

[MZGirl]

Give me a break, Dave.  You still owe Dawn an apology.

Why?  Dave's just stating his opinion, and this IS a motorcycle racing discussion forum.  Why should Dave have to apologize for expressing his opinion?

[Super Dave]

Hey, thanks...

We all have the right to say whatever, per se...

We don't have the right to be heard...

And I've stated a whole lot of opinions over the years that no one listened to...

This is nothing different.

Part of my schooling with riders can be to tell someone something that is uncomfortable.

I didn't apply any of this to anyone until others attached it to themselves.

Knowledge brings disappointment sometimes rather than joy.

[251am]

 "Wouldn't a piece of rhubarb pie be nice right about now?"  -Garrison Keillor