CCS Turnover and Newbees

[spyderchick]

This is why generalizations are a BAD thing. What K3 says is right. What Dave has to say is right...for the right individuals.

Track days will not teach Nicky Hayden a damn thing about racing, but they will teach folks who are new to track experiences how to handle themselves in that situation. Obviously coaching levels vary.

A licensing clinic is not a race school or track day. It teaches a potential racer the rules and basic ettiquette required to race.

Race coaching might teach Nicky Hayden more about racing, but only with the right coach. Race schools are race coaching, and should teach a rider how to deal with racing situations. Choose a race school to fit your skills and experience.

You also have the argument that track days take money from racing activities. We live in a capitalistic society, and free enterprise reigns. Track orgs want to make money, tracks are willing to sell them the days, riders are willing to pay. The people who will also benefit are all of the vendors and retailers that provide product and services to these riders. Trackside vendors like tire people, suspension guys, tuners and video services can make a decent living off of this. Local and mail order retailers as well as service providors can also make a buck. (Yup, that includes me.) Track days  provide us with an additional source of income, which gives racers a wider array of available product and services to choose from. Not only that, it can help keep your costs as a racer down, due to the fact that all of this stuff is being consumed by someone other than just racers.

The motorcycle industry as a whole is growing. This can only benefit racers. I see all sorts of people looking to get into the making money from the sport of racing. What they need to keep in mind is that you need a broader base than just racers to actually make some money. Racers will only spend that dollar where it will benefit them the most, while everyday riders might not be so discriminate with their money.

Just a little something to think about.

[Super Dave]

You also have the argument that track days take money from racing activities. We live in a capitalistic society, and free enterprise reigns. Track orgs want to make money, tracks are willing to sell them the days, riders are willing to pay. The people who will also benefit are all of the vendors and retailers that provide product and services to these riders. Trackside vendors like tire people, suspension guys, tuners and video services can make a decent living off of this. Local and mail order retailers as well as service providors can also make a buck. (Yup, that includes me.) Track days  provide us with an additional source of income, which gives racers a wider array of available product and services to choose from. Not only that, it can help keep your costs as a racer down, due to the fact that all of this stuff is being consumed by someone other than just racers.

The motorcycle industry as a whole is growing. This can only benefit racers. I see all sorts of people looking to get into the making money from the sport of racing. What they need to keep in mind is that you need a broader base than just racers to actually make some money. Racers will only spend that dollar where it will benefit them the most, while everyday riders might not be so discriminate with their money.

Just a little something to think about.

Ah, now it gets interesting.

The industry is growing, but it puts nothing back.

Really, it's not a new problem.  It's why Roberts, Senior, left and took Rainey to Europe in 1984;  his personal frustration with the American motorcycle market.

Motorcycle sales are up, and race entries at the pro level are down.  

Track day programs are even skirting the established knowledgeable vendors and doing their own vending.  It's easy to sell a lack of knowledge to those who lack knowledge.  It's sold with hype and color.  That's the American motorcycle market.

So, the established vendors get cut out, and the real knowledge base is diminished.  

Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome...

Well, someone called that insanity.  

Goes for a lot of practice for some riders, a majority of track day riders, and the motorcycle industry (in general).
 ;D

Free enterprise can reign.  It doesn't mean that the market is leading anything down a path of prosperity.

Example...since we're on a racing board....

How many young top level road racers in the US have a road racing back ground...meaning that their primary skill was road racing, not something else.

Jesse Janisch was a dirt tracker.  4&6 and I worked with him and his family to convert him.  Haydens.  Dirt track.  Yeah, it's not new.  But you had guys like McDonald, Russell, James, DuHammel, Greene, and a host of others that really have a road race back ground.

You don't see that.  I don't even hardly look at the local grids to see where some one is from.  Look at all the imported riders from Europe and Australia.  Nothing up and coming of value here.  Bother anyone?

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

My biggest complaint with the track days is there now overpowering presense in the amount of weekends they consume on RACE tracks. I think that the racing organizations and true racing schools should get dibs on weekend dates, then the track day org's can fight over the remaining dates (to help provide more weekends for actual racing!)

[grasshopper]

If I could have started all over again I would have riden dirt track before getting into Road Racing.

It is so much cheaper to race dirt track then to road race. Dirt track teaches alot of fundamentals that are very useful when it comes to getting on the road race course.

I can go out and race 20 f*ckin dirt track races for the cost to race one one weekend of road racing.

Road Racing is so G*d D*mn expensive.

TIRES TIRES TIRES!!!! TIRES ANYONE TIRES???

JESUS CHRIST!!!

[spyderchick]

Example...since we're on a racing board....

How many young top level road racers in the US have a road racing back ground...meaning that their primary skill was road racing, not something else.

Actually, that doesn't fly. How many people do you know who have a degree from college or a university who are working in the field they originally earned their degree in?

I know of the following (degree: career path):

Architect: Tae Kwon Do dojang owner and 5th degree black belt

Architect: Computer systems specialist for Snap On tools.

Phsyc and education: Writing grants for major universities

Lawyer: Vice president for Blue Cross/Blue shield, aquisitions (probably the one closest to her true degree)

Physician: writer

at 19 I was working on a Dance degree...look where I wound up.

The list could go on.

We as a society created the " compete or get out" marketplace. If you are a traditional vendor, that's hold true for you as well. The older vendors should have the money and knowledge, the new guys are at a disadvantage. How do they take over the biz? By offering something other want. Maybe it's better service, maybe it's better incentive or price.

As far as the industry, I really do think it's growing, and we cannot measure that growth by racing alone. Racing does not exsist in a vacuum, it exists alongside and even as a fringe to a larger market.

Something that the car manufacturures have managed to do is create innovation OUTSIDE of racing. This is a new phenomenon, but it came about through the development of computer programs. This also translates into the motorcycle market.

We don't NEED Valentino Rossi to test new and innovative ideas on the track while engineers make major changes. That is done on the computer and through factory test riders. Rossi becomes an important marketing tool, and that in and of itself is becomes a separate entity from racing for racing's sake.

The saying goes, to make a small fortune in racing your must first start with a large fortune. This has not and will not change in the forseeable future. Companies use racing as a marketing tool. Club level racers and national level privateers don't make a company money, per se. Bike sales, aftermarket parts and apparel sold to the general public creates cash flow by and large because it's the lion's share of the market. Racers can be tools of the marketing machine.

Track days contribute to the market by creating a new marketing outlet. Quality and viability will find its own balancing point within the vendor, service and retail structure. Good businesses, old or new, will succeed based upon their own merits as judged by the consumer. Supply and demand, price and value. Capitalism at it's best, and unfortunately, sometimes worst.

It doesn't matter where the racer comes from. If they can be a marketing tool, good for them. It doesn't matter what the basis or background is of an industry based business, if they can produce and provide a competitive, quality product to the consumer, they will succeed. Bottom line.     ;)

[TZDeSioux]

I can go out and race 20 f*ckin dirt track races for the cost to race one one weekend of road racing.

Road Racing is so G*d D*mn expensive.

TIRES TIRES TIRES!!!! TIRES ANYONE TIRES???

JESUS CHRIST!!!

You mind your language boy!  ;)

[Super Dave]

It doesn't matter where the racer comes from. If they can be a marketing tool, good for them. It doesn't matter what the basis or background is of an industry based business, if they can produce and provide a competitive, quality product to the consumer, they will succeed. Bottom line.     ;)

Or does it?

If American motorcycling isn't producing anything for the market...

What's a more important industry?

I guess I have to look at American riders as a market.  They aren't getting rides, as even the American industry doesn't look favoribly at them.  So, why doesn't the American motorcycle industry do something?

Was the American market  better when we had guys like Baker, Roberts, and Nixon racing in the World Championships?  Simple answer is yes.  We're trying as of late to try to compare motorcycle sales to that era.  Any current strength in motorcycles currently is the return of some of those people to the market from a previous era...The population of Americans that are available to sell motorcycles to has certainly increased, and if we had the penetration into the market that motorcycles had then....we'd be way ahead of the numbers that we have now..

I have more responses, but I don't have a huge amount of time...

[251am]

   There are some great debates going on here, but Lowe 119 asked "has the growth plateaued?". SD mentioned a conversation with Elliot pertaining to 2001 and the downhill slide from there, economically and in attendance at the track. A second part of the original post was turnover #s; Anyone in Ft Worth care to offer up the stats, or will this be swept under the rug as well in HOPES that things will get better if we ignore it.  Sharing information is part of the key.
    Here's an idea that is info sharing related; Getting your race license with CCS entitles us to Lockhart Phillips trackdays at $65 a day, I believe. Those days are usually weekdays-they don't run intereference with racing. $65 is a hell of a lot cheaper than the others, but that info is not widespread. Why? Why are folks hoarding information that could help the organization grow? Why not work on promoting that angle to newbs? They have the license paperwork done, get on the track a few days, here or there. Eventually, the bug will bite.

I get a little frustrated as there was a similar thread a year ago that dissolved into sidetracks as this one is. Is this a serious situation that will require  cooperation to get the organization on the right track? Will CCS do something about it other than raise fees that just keep more people away? Are there riders included in the policy changing meetings? For instance, changing the GT format from 30 minutes to 5 laps. I read those newsletters which talk about a couple changes here or there, but then I have to read ALL the fine print to find out what was REALLY changed. OK, now I'm sidetracking.


  One more idea; how about have a "newb corner pit", or some such thing, at the track where new guys know they can go to ask questions, get clarifications, etc., from one person that is designated to do that all weekend? That tutor either volunteers, gets barter value for some racing, or is outright paid by CCS. I went to Rick, Dean, and the Science Guy Brian at LCR with my questions during a weekend but they're busy too, racing. They helped quite a bit. Have a designated newb knocker that helps do that, answer their questions, hold their hands so to speak, introduce em around, you know what I mean?                

[spyderchick]

I've pushed for a rider representative(s) to work with CCS, but that doesn't seem to be an idea anyone is interested in.

Also, as far as having a newbie contact( the idea has merit), would that be a volunteer or paid position? This is where it gets all mucked up in politics.

I think Dave is talking about the industry as a microcosm, wheras I'm talking about it as a whole. You can't have one without the other, and I think that's where stuff gets side tracked.


To really know whether the number of racers in total has plateaued, you would have to poll each racing organization, and find out whether racer attendance and number of entries for the entire industry has dropped.

As far as the industry as a whole is concerned, it's currently in a period of growth. You can't even get into an MSF course here without being on a waiting list for weeks or even months. The growth in female riders is exploding. All of this will benefit racers in the long run by adding to the pool of street riders and eventually club level racers. This helps vendors, service providers and creates exposure for the sport.

[xseal]

I take issue w/ SD on the "no support."  Lets assume Yamaha makes $2k on each sportbike they sell (dealer makes $1-1.5k on top of that), maybe its a little more/less.  How many R1/6's you need to sell to pay for $2m of track improvements at Laguna Seca?  1,000.  Will 1,000 extra people really buy them b/c of Yamaha's commitment to MotoGP in the US?  

In the end, racing is still a business for the manufacturers.

[spyderchick]

In the end, racing is still a business for the manufacturers.

True...
And everybody else with a service or product to sell.

[Super Dave]

I take issue w/ SD on the "no support."  Lets assume Yamaha makes $2k on each sportbike they sell (dealer makes $1-1.5k on top of that), maybe its a little more/less.  How many R1/6's you need to sell to pay for $2m of track improvements at Laguna Seca?  1,000.  Will 1,000 extra people really buy them b/c of Yamaha's commitment to MotoGP in the US?  

In the end, racing is still a business for the manufacturers.

Wow!

Ok, first, how much does it cost to keep the lights on in a dealership?  How about maintaining an inventory of parts?  How about insurance to cover workman's comp, floor planning.

I'd bet that retail on a sportbike would allow a profit of $1000 MAYBE on a 600 and above bike...but profit needs to go toward maintaining a business.  A business might be required to make 20% above the cost of everything just to keep the lights on.  The margin on motorcycles is usually 8 to 12%.

The manufacture has to have reps, demo programs, meetings, schools, etc.

I have had the opportunity to work with a manufacturer and purchase motorcycles at the manufacturer cost.  Wish it was a huge profit that they were making because it would have cost me less money.