CCS Turnover and Newbees

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

For racing, track day programs are part of the enemy next to the economy.  Sorry folks.

     I agree. I got into this topic on the SBN board and alot of people were oblivious to this fact, they all seemed to think track day organizations somehow helped racing. If you look at the 2004 schedule for Blackhawk Farms (which is still up as of right now) it shows just how many weekend dates are consumed by not only motorcycle track day organizations but car organizations as well (those are called autocrosses). I remember when many of us were complaining about the 1st BFR event each year ending up with winter weather and us wanting that event moved to a later date. I believe the intent of wanting that event moved was to have a more competative higher turnout event without snow still on the ground, but we still wanted to keep the same number of events there per season at BFR. As I remember it Kevin wasn't able to secure a replacement date, largly because of the number of weekend dates consumed by non-racing organizations.

     I think many people find it satisfying enough to do the track days and not actually race, this opportunity IMHO keeps more riders from actually becoming racers. I have seen many riders bragging on SBN how they have been doing endless numbers of track days with the intent of getting good enough to go racing, yet most never seem to make it to the actual racing. I'm sure there are people out there that actually use track days as some kind of stepping stone into racing, but as I believe and SD has argued many times, what are you gaining doing uninstructed track day laps as a beginner? Even if you don't seek instruction as a new racer you will improve just by truely racing with other people, though without instruction it will take much longer to get up to speed and you'll probably develop bad racing habits along the way.

     I think longevity of racers staying in this sport would come from lowering or removing Amateur contingency and moving it to the Expert classes and paying deeper into the Expert fields. Contingency providers are banking on new racers using their products and developing a following by those racers during there motorcycling lives, sadly though most racers don't last, somewhat because of this very action of paying out to the Amateurs. If the contingency sponsers would just figure it out that many Amateurs look to the Experts and what they use, then use those same products themselves. Provide contingency only to the Experts and I bet there would still be a lot of use by the Amateurs of those same sponsers products. I also bet this would end the sandbagging problem that exists so obviously today. Give racers an incentive to go Expert and stay involved thru payouts and there would definately be a shift in how long racers stay involved in the sport.

     Another big issue is the debt situation, which led to me personally missing 2 seasons. I now race thru cash only and it's probably the best thing you can do personally to extend the length of time your involved in this sport. It's definately a great feeling at the end of the season knowing that you don't owe a dime for the last season's racing effort. I have made this suggestion before and I will make it again here. Figure out how much you realistically plan on spending for racing for the entire year, divide it by 52 to figure out a weekly amount, then put that much into a racing only account EVERY week of the entire year. I personally would suggest getting a checking account for this with a check card so you can pay for all your racing related expenses directly from this account and have an ongoing record of all your racing expenditures, this is also great for tax purposes at the end of the year. :)

[Super Dave]

Debt situation...

Ok, I'll play credit card trade with just about any of you and win.

That comes from putting money into others track time in addition to doing what needed to be done.

But...

There have been times in my career where I though I needed one thing, but someone of value stopped me and said, "Hey, Dave....no..."

I understand all that.  I have a guy that wants to get a full Rob North chassis built for a CB400F that we raced...That's a whole lot of money, but I honestly don't see that we've exhausted what we need to do with the stock chassis.  I know of some modifications that NEED to be done that WILL make it work better for an absolute fraction of the cost.

I guess that's part of what you get from SD schooling...sometimes a dose of reality...but it doesn't have to cost more when you get that reality.  

My school costs X dollars...but what do you save in the long run?  Then the question comes back to my students:  Have you utilized me to the extent you need to?  I'm often amused by students that I know that blanket shoot for answers in places where I don't see many right answers.  Yeah, yeah, yeah...I don't have all the answers, but I have a good number of them.

Ok, shut up... :D

[Steviebee]

 I'm often amused by students that I know that blanket shoot for answers in places where I don't see many right answers.  

You lost me on this one ??  err  what ?

Mike,  You racing again this year ?  whole season?  This is what 7 years for ya ?

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

Mike,  You racing again this year ?  whole season?  This is what 7 years for ya ?

     Yes Steve, I'm racing again this season, plan on doing the combined MW & GP schedules. I leave for Daytona tomorrow afternoon (want me to pick you up along the way?) to race the CCS races this weekend, then stay for Bike Week and spectate all the AMA races. I started getting the bug to go fast again last season, but didn't start riding my 750 till the last 2 events (and I had lack of brakes for some reason on the thing? :-/). Hopefully I can use Daytona to get my head back in the game and at the same time have a much needed true vacation (1st in a decade!)

     As far as how many years of racing, well I would have to say 4 years of true racing, and the last 3 years of just playing around. I plan to make year #8 another true racing year!

[tigerblade]

...some leave because they get injured.

I raced 1 1/2 years so I guess I'm bringing down the average.  Hopefully I can be back someday...   :-/

[Super Dave]

You lost me on this one ??  err  what ?

LOL!


There are fair and reasonable answers to things.  I've seen things that are just as bright as daylight.  

I comment, and then the person goes on and consumes hundreds of dollars doing the same thing exploring all these options from twelve different sources.  At what point should a person execute?  

There's a way to get through a corner.  Yet, there's some mish mash ideas that get tossed around on how to do it.  Riders go to their track days and races and do it all wrong.  Tell them over and over.  They'll ask every fast amateur how they do it and get the same MSF idea everytime.  Over and over, the rider has the gut feeling of terror trying to manage traction front and rear when the answer has been transmitted.  

Yes, the line that a bike would follow would be almost exactly the same, but the execution is completely different.  

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink...

I'm just having a personal rant.  There are ways that I can make things easy.  But sometimes riders just want it to be hard.  

[Steviebee]

    want me to pick you up along the way

OK now im crying !!

Good luck and have Fun !!

[Super Dave]

(and I had lack of brakes for some reason on the thing? :-/)!

Seems like you two have common ground....  

[bigtuna]

GSXR RACER MIKE

I am one of the track day riders that used the track days as a stepping stone.  A buddy and I started by doing a two day Code's CSS in May of 2002.  During 2002 and 2003 we did about 15 track days.  last spring we decided that we wanted to try our hand at racing.  

We had a blast and cannot wait for this season to begin.  He was the LRRS rookie of the year (42 yrs old at that) and at 36 yrs I won a few races myself.  Both of us are completely into racing, something i don't think either of us would have done if it were not for using track days as a stepping stone.

When we do track days now it is like a sunday ride.  We obviously enjoy it but we also would rather be racing.  Sure alot of people use track days instead of racing.  Another buddy of mine almost died in a crash during a race at Loudon (before we knew him) so he prefers the slower pace of track days.  We try and get him back to racing and he laughs and tells us that we are crazy MF's and that the 50 or so plaques he has in his garage are all he needs.

I guess my point is that including my buddy and myself I pit with two other riders that started doing track days and then decided to try racing.

IMO track days have made getting on the track less intimidating to newbies and is a great stepping stone to racing

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

Man, I'm gonna p1ss some people off with THIS post!
I have to disagree with Mike about trackdays.  When I started, there was only racing.  I spent so much money for so few laps with CCS.  Aside from that, every time I modified a bike, CCS changed the damn rules.  It's like they knew my plans and were working actively to thwart me.  The money I wasted was insane.
Dave, I understand what you're saying about making laps without instruction, but at least you're making laps.  Is the middle of the English Channel a good place to teach a beginner how to swim?  Just toss him in, he'll be fine!  Is it possible that all these years later, the great Guru Dave has forgotten what it's like to be absolutely clueless and terrified?  How much can you, Dave Rosno, teach somebody who's in pure survival mode?  Although passably quick from the beginning, I wasn't ready for your help until I'd been racing for a few seasons.  Not everyone arrives with skill falling out of their @$$.  Trackdays have a group for the dangerously slow riders, and these people get constant attention and nurturing.  I coach at track days now, and I'm proud of that.  We learned exactly NOTHING about riding in the race licence school that I took.  We were expected to be good riders when we showed up.  Where should one develop those skills?  I learned them in canyons at great personal and public risk.  Now, we have track days.
  There is a lot to be said for just getting the mentality necessary for constant high speed running, and that takes practice.  Plus you have to learn how to take care of the bike, ect.
$175 will get you three races and two practice sessions at a CCS weekend.  The same money will get you eight or nine 20-minute sessions at a track day Saturday, and another $100 will get you as many sessions again on Sunday.  If a guy is still learning how to shift, brake, and hit his lines, where will he be better served?
Dave, you really don't remember some of this stuff.  How many times have you seen a racer who is woefully off pace?  Getting lapped twice in an eight lap sprint?  Other riders complaining about the horiffic closing speeds, and saying that the slow rider is unsafe?  Is that person being nurtured to improve in such an environment?  Hell no.  The amateur/expert combined races are just WAY too fast for some people to learn in.
If I were getting started in racing now, I'd do track days until I could run a certian pace that would match me with the front-running amateurs.  Then I would jump in and try racing.  It would certianly be much more cost effective than the way I did things.  And lets face it, the almighty dollar is king in this sport....
This viewpoint may be unpopular, but it's based in hard fact.  Purely from a milage standpoint, trackdays are much more cost effective than racing.  Why blow the cash before you're ready to compete?  You'll likely just get a bunch of 6th through 10th place finishes, then CCS will move you to expert because you earned some POINTS!  Hey, I was asked to move up before I ever earned a single piece of wood!
Dave?  How was it that Benji showed up at his VERY FIRST RACE so much faster than the guys he ran against?  Was that just supernatural ability, or had he put in a bit of time at track days before he came racing?

[smoke]

K3
I read your post a few times.  I disagree with a few of your statements ( Hard facts")   are allways relavent to a persons situation.  Just because you were not ready for Dave's instuction does not mean others were not or are not.  Take me  for example.  I was that guy that was runing in scard out of my mind. WHY?  I did not have the skills to ride fast. As far as smarts go I pick things up quickly.  Dave gave pointers on the skills that I lacked.  The rest of the year I ran great.

Now I did do a few track days for seat time.  But the track days were spent working on the right things vise doing a bunch a laps.  Do'n get me wrong track days are good but they should be spent working on the right things.

Mel

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

I'll agree with you there.  Also, not all trackdays are created equal.  I coach for STT, and believe that just about any amatuer level rider can find some useful coaching from the staff I work for.  I've actually found my own lap times dropping since I began coaching, and I believe that it's because I concentrate so hard on the fundamentals when I teach.  There were things, sloppy habbits, really, that I had picked up as the years passed.  My own lap times had gone stagnant.  Now they are falling again.
(Dare I admit that while reading the STT instructor's guidebook and watching the other instructors teach,  there were tips I picked up that I hadn't learned from Code, Rosno or Bruer?  Little things, yes, but important nonetheless.  And stuff I'd never learned in 6 years of racing!)
 Perhaps other track days aren't as instructor-friendly as STT is.  We work 40 minutes per hour with our novice students, and they can stay novices forever, if need be.  Intermediates still seek out their favorite coaches for one-on-one sessions, and the coaches are prowling and ever-vigilant in every session.  If someone appears to be struggling, they get help.  Racing sure isn't like that!
So maybe what I had to say in my initial post doesn't apply to all trackday situations, but is based more closely on what STT does.  I really don't have the experience to know if the situation is different elsewhere.  I do know that each rider arrives at the track with his own abilitys, and not everyone is ready.  For those at the middle to lower end of the talent curve, track days are a safer way to start.  For those low on cash, track days provide a three-tier system to gauge one's improvement as a rider, combined with cheaper per-lap costs.  Anyone who can hold his own as an advanced group trackday rider will be a VERY fast amateur racer.  Many of these advanced trackday riders have never raced.  How did they get so fast then, if track days are meaningless, empty laps that teach nothing?