anyone know the answer to this

[bmfgsxr]

http://www.racemotorcycles.com/cgi-bin/board/YaBB.pl?board=rules;action=display;num=1037055387

[Super Dave]

Well, I think you got an answer the first time around.

You've got quite a bit more entries at Loudon than other tracks, so having the separation makes sense.

Elsewhere, well, when you're new, you have to learn the track, whether you're a pro or an amateur.  

The first season that I did the whole AMA series, I didn't have a different classification because I had never been to Sears Point, etc.

Certainly, I think that LRRS does it right in that people get bumped out of amateur racing and into the junior stuff.  There appear to be too many sand bagging amateurs in some areas of CCS.

That's my opinion.

[bmfgsxr]

by having a junior class it would allow guys to bump up a bit easier and leave the ameture class to the newbies. and there would be less cherry picking. this season i was racing against guys who were ametures for 2 and three years already. thats nuts.

[Super Dave]

I agree there are guys that are amateurs for too long.  Sometimes, those guys race sporatically for those years before putting it together.  Two years wouldn't seem too bad.  Three...  There are guys that are amateurs for longer periods.

I'd say contact Kevin Elliott on the matter.  Write it up, post your proposal here too.  At least you'd get some kind of a concensus on what the racers think.  Probably even better to post here first so that you can narrow the focus of what you'd want.

[the_weggie_man]

OK, this is from an ex racer, ex race director but I am still at the track almost every race weekend. I've been involved in roadracing since 1981 so I think I have a bit of experience to lean on.

I do not see a need for a junior class. In 22 years I have not seen a need for it.

The fast amateurs will move up to expert and if not there should be a system in place to make them move. Consistent top 5 finishes or point accumulations should move you to expert classification. This will keep a regular progression of am to ex. Other amateurs will move up just because they want to race against experts and improve their skills.

Then there are those amateurs that don't improve, don't want to move up and are completely happy riding around in 6th to last place. They are racing for fun not trophies. Leave them alone, they are not taking away anyones trophies or contingencies and they pay a large portion of the weekly bills.

If you can run in the top 5 in any amateur class you should feel comfortable to race against experts. The learning experience alone is worth the move. The experts are not the evil empire that will ruin your day. So you get beat for awhile until you learn the skills to run up front. Live with it, consider it a part of growing up. This is not personal but ... I get so sick of the guys that whine because if they go expert they can't win. Tough shat! Nobody ever said life was a full time party. Put the learning experience to good use.

I've heard the same thing from the fast experts that hang around forever and never attempt an AMA national supersport race. What if Scott Zampach, Todd Harrington locally and many others would have said that. They never would have known that they could kick some ass on the national level.

So I've had my little hissy fit and just want to say I vote no on a junior class.

[Super Dave]

I agree there, no junior class on my vote.

I think the thing that changed from when I was a novice, and you were too Weggie Man, is that we didn't want to be novices at all.  I wanted to be an expert.

I never won an novice race myself either.  I saved that for being an expert.

[the_weggie_man]

I was not a consistent amateur. I had my good weekends with a trophy  and then bad where I couldn't do anything right. I rode two years as an amateur. My very first weekend as an expert I was running up front with the fast boys. Just the confidence that I had in the guys I was on the track with made a lot of difference.

You're right Dave, we had to be novices for awhile but the goal was expert, to run with the fast guys. No middle ground.

[dave333]

Then there are those amateurs that don't improve, don't want to move up and are completely happy riding around in 6th to last place. They are racing for fun not trophies. Leave them alone, they are not taking away anyones trophies or contingencies and they pay a large portion of the weekly bills.

It is nice to know you feel I should have a place if my skills don't materialize.  My last races of the year my only goal was not to crash and not to come in last.  This was after a good crash and a helicopter ride.  

I must say, however, I would feel safer racing with the experts then with a bunch of new amateurs that freak out when someone passes them at high velocity and close quarters in T1 at Gateway...  ;D   I ride the advanced/expert sessions at track days for that very reason...

No junior class, imho.  things are chaotic enough now, I can't imagine trying to keep track of more...

[sdiver68]

I must say, however, I would feel safer racing with the experts then with a bunch of new amateurs that freak out when someone passes them at high velocity and close quarters in T1 at Gateway...  ;D  

Did someone call my name?  ;D

Actually, I had a lot more close calls with experts then I ever did with Amatuers.  Most of the time, you show an AM a wheel and they back off.  Not so the expert being "humbled" by the yellow plate carrying 5 mph more corner speed....Or the expert running in the top 3 who are so convinced you are holding them they bump or squeeze you on purpose.  Of course, my home track is known as the "roughest" on our circuit  :o

Although track days are something else altogether, much better to run in Expert group.

[roadracer797]

But do experts really want untested amatuers riding up front with them? Everybody says you get faster when you ride with experts but is that always true imho it's not. I race a combined race with experts and I pass some and am passed by others so am I getting faster or just holding my own and beleive when I say experts don't like being passed by that yellow plate, they just try to stuff you at the next corner.

[Super Dave]

Well, and untested amateur is going to have a hard time running up front.  Until we can see amateurs doing 13's and 14's at Blackhawk last year....

As for the stuffing thing, that's a problem with an individual rider that has no confidence or does not understand their set up.  Simple.

Expert practice generally runs very smoothly and consistently compared with what you have to deal with in amateur practice sessions.

As for an expert not backing off like an amateur, I think that's holding a line.  Bumping really shouldn't be tollerated at this level, but at the pro level, it is pretty much expected.  There is only so much room and the bikes are on the edge.  

I personally don't mind a bit of bumping and nudging.  It's close quarters sometimes, so those things happen.  Stupid T-boning is different when someone makes a huge mistake.  

[the_weggie_man]

If you're an am carrying 5mph more speed into a turn than an expert then it's your responsibility to make the clean pass. It's that way whether you're passing an ex or am. Or is it that the am has just overcooked the corner, or the ex blew his entrance, hence 5mph more speed.

Another lesson in safe racing is not to push a pass. Wait until it can be done safely. At this level there is no need to be flagrantly bumping and shoving. Remember, we're racing for pieces of wood out there.

If you're an am consistently pushing experts in corners then maybe it's time you're an ex?