which 600?

[oh344ccs]

 ??? ??? WHICH 600 DOES everyone think will be the best of the new batch?  How long will it take to get parts for the new 03's.  I want a new 600 to race but, i don't know if I should just get a gixxer so I can get parts easier, or go for the new R6, OR 6RR kaw.   ???  What do you think?

[sportbikepete]

Well if you do not get you $$ down on a Kawi soon you will not have to worry about that part of your equation.  ;D

[r1owner]

Well, before you decide, you might want to call the dealers for the bikes you are looking at to get some prices on spares.

I bought an 01 GSXR 600 instead of an R6 (mainly due to the FI on the GSXR).

The frame for a GSXR is ~2000 while a frame for an R6 is ~900.  Had I known that, I would have went with the R6.  Parts for GSXR's seem inordinately more expensive then for R6's.

[slowpoke97]

in my opinion u should go with the F5 600rr from honda its going to be the best

[FullMoonRacing]

<snip..>
The frame for a GSXR is ~2000 while a frame for an R6 is ~900.  Had I known that, I would have went with the R6.  Parts for GSXR's seem inordinately more expensive then for R6's.

You can bend a '01 GSX-R600 frame one heckuva lot easier than the pre- 2001 frames, too!

[TreyBone]

It looks like the new Honda 600RR is going to be the shiznit.  I am hoping to be on one for next  season ;D

[ysr612]

I am not fast and I would not buy a new bike to race unless I was.  So if I was I only buy a bike that offered good pay back. contingentcy

[sdiver68]

As a rookie, I would advise a GSXR or R6.  Parts are plentiful, and more importantly knowledge and set-up are well defined.

As a 2nd year guy, I'm sticking with GSXR for those reasons.  The following year, however, I'd be lying to say the Honda doesn't look tempting....

[oh344ccs]

I wonder if a frame for the new R6 will still be +/-$900, the frame is new for 03.  claimed hp with ram air was around 123.  and its got fi this year.  However gsxr parts will probably be alot easier to get. ???  I really can't go with a honda, local dealer helping me out sells the other three.  The contingency $$ won't matter this year as an am.  But the year after that will, hopefully, be an issue.

[Super Dave]

in my opinion u should go with the F5 600rr from honda its going to be the best

I'll bet you'll drop a grand buying an aftermarket exhaust.... :o

[Super Dave]

Regardless, the new bikes have never substantially increased the lap times.  So, unless you're a top flight expert that need the correct bike for contingency, get the simplest one.

For reference...

At Blackhawk in 1993 just about everyone was riding Honda CBR600F2's.  Mine made 94HP and I could do lap times in the 1:16 range with the fastest 600's doing 15's.

In 2001 on my 104HP GSXR600 that has ram air (that doesn't get factored into the HP number), weighed in at 30 pounds less, had four piston calipers with floating discs, larger rear wheel, FI, and cartridge forks....

I did a 1:13 something, fastest 600's doing 13 somethings.  All that technology, in addition to the tires, which do feel better, I managed to go two seconds faster in almost ten years.

The bike won't make anyone much faster.  The rider understanding the set up and taking advantage of that will.

[oh344ccs]

Thanks dave, I guess i already new whichever bike I chose really wouldn't make much difference.  But, I haven't been in this long enough to know how little it would actually be.  It's kinda strange when you think about all the new stuff in the last 10 years, only dropping 2 sec's a lap.  Now I guess I'm back to what is cheapest, since all the bikes now are pretty good.

[Super Dave]

Which brings you back to the availability thing.

A good GSXR or R6 is easily crashed end over end and then put back together with parts from friends at the track.  

And if you wanted to endurance race the GSXR, I've got a great big tank with a quick fill that I'd like to sell.

[Jeff]

God loves a Honda...  You can't go wrong with it!

The only thoughts/considerations are that the R6/GSXRs are much more popular for contingency purposes, so loaner parts at the track are readily available...

Dave does make the perfect point though in that it's the rider and setup, not necessarily the machine.  

However, I'm going for the Rider, Setup AND machine next year!  Hopefully my RR will be in and complete for Gateway in March...

[Super Dave]

I'm sure the F5 is really neat.  But unless Honda has a whole lot of contingency or they give some bikes to some riders, you and a couple of people will be the only guys on one.  The new Triumph looks pretty good for that matter.  How about a Ducati 749?

Many years ago, the Japanese manufactures got together and decided that they should not strive for too much one-up-manship in the 600 sport bike category.  So, technological improvements will always come, but they come in reasonable amounts.  Bold new styling, good marketing, and the constant hammering about how this one's new for xxxx has kept the 600 bike sales soaring.

CBR600 Hurrican to F2, that was a pretty big jump.  600 Katana was a pretty good contender against the Hurricane.  Then the Yamaha FZR600 came out.  Pretty much blew the doors off of everyone.  That's the agreement time, right in the early '90's.

The F2,3,4,5 Followed.  Kaw ZX6D, E, R(F,G,H) and now RR, Yamaha YZF600 and now R6's.  Suzuki GSXR's....

Everyone is in the cycle of updating, getting something from a different manufacturer, etc.  What a deal for those who make and sell bikes.  

Me, I have to kind of keep on top of something new.  Otherwise, I look like I'm not keeping up to date.  I could teach on a vintage bike, but how would that look....

[slowpoke97]

super dave does kawasiki pay money or not

[Jeff]

I hear ya Dave, but right now I'm in the boat of riding a 2000 F4 and bikewise, have a tough time competing with the R6.  The GSXR and ZX doesn't pull away from me nearly as bad as the R6 does.

And it's not that I'm lacking in cornering or braking skills as I'm not getting passed in corners or being 'out-braked'.  It's the power between these points which hurt me.

I remain a die-hard Honda rider simply because of reliability and 'forgiveness'.  

In considering what to do for 03, I had to do something bike-wise simply because the F4 was just plain not putting out enough.  With that in mind, I could dump $3-4k into motor work for it, but even after that, I'd still be barely at where the new bikes sit (performance wise).

Considering the substantial leap that Honda has made by *adding* a NEW bike to their line up versus re-vamping the old, makes the decision much easier.  

The 600RR is developed as a full-on race bike, not compromising performance for comfort like the F series did.  Hence the new name, and why Honda is still carrying the F4i as their "middle of the road" bike.

[TZDeSioux]

I hear ya Dave, but right now I'm in the boat of riding a 2000 F4 and bikewise, have a tough time competing with the R6.  The GSXR and ZX doesn't pull away from me nearly as bad as the R6 does.

And it's not that I'm lacking in cornering or braking skills as I'm not getting passed in corners or being 'out-braked'.  It's the power between these points which hurt me.

I remain a die-hard Honda rider simply because of reliability and 'forgiveness'.  

In considering what to do for 03, I had to do something bike-wise simply because the F4 was just plain not putting out enough.  With that in mind, I could dump $3-4k into motor work for it, but even after that, I'd still be barely at where the new bikes sit (performance wise).

Considering the substantial leap that Honda has made by *adding* a NEW bike to their line up versus re-vamping the old, makes the decision much easier.  

The 600RR is developed as a full-on race bike, not compromising performance for comfort like the F series did.  Hence the new name, and why Honda is still carrying the F4i as their "middle of the road" bike.

and It looks really cool!  :D

[tcchin]

Dave,

Regarding teaching on a vintage bike, DP Safety School instructor bikes, at least until a couple years ago, were Seca II's. That really took away any student's potential claims about the staff's equipment advantages making them faster.

[Super Dave]

Went to a DP program to get some track time, but the hills at Sears collapsed (last November).  I was going to ride a vintage bike there.  It was a 1969 Honda.  

DP's program doesn't attract the number of racers that I get out here.  Lots of regular street riders, etc. etc., that like to ride on a track.

A Seca II wouldn't do me any good either.  My school bike ends up being my race bike.


Jeff...
Regardless, the new bikes have never substantially increased the lap times.  So, unless you're a top flight expert that need the correct bike for contingency, get the simplest one.
 
For reference...
 
At Blackhawk in 1993 just about everyone was riding Honda CBR600F2's.  Mine made 94HP and I could do lap times in the 1:16 range with the fastest 600's doing 15's.

We're back to that again.

The F5 will have no real effect in lowering your lap times.  If it does, it is because there might be some different geometry in it that you feel more comfortable with.

R6's come from Yamaha with some pretty nice geometry.  So, with very little work, a stock one goes like stink.  GSXR's and ZX6R's require a bit of effort to make work correctly.

You ever ride an R6 on a track?  In 2000, my ZX6 was broken.  So, I was borrowing my 1999 bike.  Then the cam chain tensioner went.  So, PJ gave me his R6 to race.  No practice, just jump on and go.  I got I led the race, did 14's, but lost by about a bike length.

Unless you have completely exhausted all the options on your F4 in ride height, moving the forks around, etc.  There is probably a lot left in the bike.  

For years I've raced vintage bikes for guys.  I'll ride them, and I'll give them feed back on what the bike's doing, blah, blah, blah.  A CB400F that I rode for years was pretty good, but it never worked right.  The owner put on different forks, a reinforced swingarm, different swingarm, all kinds of things in the interest of rigidity.

Everything pretty much comes down to weight transfer, which is related to geometry.  The CB400F needed longer shocks.  That would give it more swingarm angle, more anti sqat, and it would move the center of gravity up and forward which would allow better weight transfer while accelerating and braking.  Things can be simple.  Spending $7k on a new F5 might change it just a bit, but if you're doing 17's now, you won't do 16.5's with the new bike.

As for the RR being a race bike... No it isn't.  Ride a Grand Prix bike once.  There is no comparison.  Street bikes are street bikes, no matter what the marketing is.

As for R6s pulling away...They are probably getting out of the corner better because of their better handling.  Might even be going faster in the middle of the corner.

Also, remember this....food for thought....

As you're going down a straight section you are increasing speed.  So is the bike you're following, or is following you.  As the distance increases, the time difference might not.  So, if you are one second behind someone at 50MPH, the distance will be x.  As you accelerate up to 100, that distance will increase to x+y.  You're not loosing time, you're just behind and the bike ahead of you.  It left the corner before you.  Make sense?

Does the F5 look cool?  YES!

[Super Dave]

Don't know if Kaw is paying money.  They did in 1999 and 2000 when I was sponsored by Kaw...

[Jeff]

The F5 will have no real effect in lowering your lap times.  If it does, it is because there might be some different geometry in it that you feel more comfortable with.

That will likely be the case (the different geometry being more stable/comfortable)

R6's come from Yamaha with some pretty nice geometry.  So, with very little work, a stock one goes like stink.  GSXR's and ZX6R's require a bit of effort to make work correctly.

You ever ride an R6 on a track?  In 2000, my ZX6 was broken.  So, I was borrowing my 1999 bike.  Then the cam chain tensioner went.  So, PJ gave me his R6 to race.  No practice, just jump on and go.  I got I led the race, did 14's, but lost by about a bike length.

I rode one this last year at BHF for about 2 hours on a practice day.  It literally scared the shit out of me because it was SO planted, stable and FAST.  It was geared to where you could literally do the entire infield of BHF, from turn 3 to 6a in 3rd gear.  That amount of power/flexibility was never available with the F4.  I have to shift at near every turn and whip the snot out of it to keep the drive up.

It scared me because I felt so comfortable that I bet I could have easily gone faster and faster until I rode it into the ground.  

Unless you have completely exhausted all the options on your F4 in ride height, moving the forks around, etc.  There is probably a lot left in the bike.  

I've done a lot of work with the suspension and geometry, and the bike feels fantastic right now.  *MUCH* better than it did at the beginning of the season.  However, it's still no R6.  

I will likely have chassis work done on the F4 this winter, in hopes of making it even better.

Everything pretty much comes down to weight transfer, which is related to geometry.  The CB400F needed longer shocks.  That would give it more swingarm angle, more anti sqat, and it would move the center of gravity up and forward which would allow better weight transfer while accelerating and braking.  Things can be simple.  Spending $7k on a new F5 might change it just a bit, but if you're doing 17's now, you won't do 16.5's with the new bike.

The design on the RR addresses a TON of geometry and weight transfer issues.  Unless it's all B.S. marketing hype, Honda's come a long way.

I don't dispute that I could go faster on the F4, and likely won't start out as fast on the RR as I finished on the F4, I'm just looking for something new/different I guess...

As for the RR being a race bike... No it isn't.  Ride a Grand Prix bike once.  There is no comparison.  Street bikes are street bikes, no matter what the marketing is.

Agreed.  But it will be hell of a lot more race oriented than the previous F series (again, according to Honda).  Miguel commented that the RR "out of the box is faster and feels a hell of a lot more stable than the F4i ever did" (yes, I understand he's paid by Honda...)

As for R6s pulling away...They are probably getting out of the corner better because of their better handling.  Might even be going faster in the middle of the corner.

Also, remember this....food for thought....

As you're going down a straight section you are increasing speed.  So is the bike you're following, or is following you.  As the distance increases, the time difference might not.  So, if you are one second behind someone at 50MPH, the distance will be x.  As you accelerate up to 100, that distance will increase to x+y.  You're not loosing time, you're just behind and the bike ahead of you.  It left the corner before you.  Make sense?

Yes and no...  At BHF this last year, I passed Dan Ortega on his R6 through turn 7.  I went in and out faster than he did.  When it came down to the accelleration though, he took me to the line with ease.  

I do completely understand you points though...

Does the F5 look cool?  YES!

:-) No comment :-)