NESBA will be at Road America on Thursday April 21

[SliderPhoto]

I AM JUST HAPPY SOMEONE HAS TRack days the day before a race...

No s h i t !  Seems like the glass is always half empty around here.

[tstruyk]

Tim let me ask you this.  Is it better to get on a new track with some guidance and instruction?  Or is it better to just take to the track and try and figure things out on your own?  For me it's not about if someone is a "racer" or what group they are in.  It's all about becoming a faster; more in control rider.

Thanks for clarifying the passing requirements, I was misinformed.

Now to answer your question, I would rather (again perfect world)  learn a track on my own, determine my own needs and abilities.  Sure the may be a section or two that I cant "figure out" but for the most part I would rather have as many "sessions" on the track as possible (ie... no sessions) to work on what I need to work on. Whether it be learning the flow of the track, picking up break/turn in references points, or bike set up.  I may not want your (or a CR) lines, they may not suit my needs.  I have found more often than not that I learn more by working around someone... not following them. Dont get me wrong I am not knocking NESBA or what they do, I just dont see it as a racer practice which is clearly the market your after that date.  "Please don't confuse NESBA as marketing this as a racer practice day.  This is not the case.  With that being said it is still available for racers to utilize for practice"  Thats like saying... hey where not hear to sell pie... but there will be pie here, and if you want to buy it, we'll sell it... at a pie convention!!  Just doesnt add up, I know your not trying to market all your events in such a way, but I also know you are trying to sell a product and have the opportunity to do so at this event.

If thats the only option I'll have to make the decision to attend or not... thats my choice.  As for the "insinuations" by Rob.... If I had asked the same question would you have thought that I was insinuating TA was better?  Or just stating an opinion?  ???

thats all I got, much love to all who promote our sport and whatnot... good luck to NESBA this season, I might just see you at the track.

[Super Dave]

Well....

"The sport"

Which is it?

Track riding?

Racing?

Two very distinct areas, but the track day programs have cut into racing.  How many track day programs are there out there?  Fewer racing organizations, certainly.  Price hikes for racers?  The result of escalating prices by race tracks that have been a result of various track day programs, cars and bikes, willing to buy into the weekend programs to get members.

How long will it be before the only opportunity to race is at an upper level?  Will the track day really give you the opportunity to test yourself?  Anyway, food for thought...

There's more to the "sport" than meets the eye.,..

[tstruyk]

sport:  to read motorcycle riding in general

[tstruyk]

I hear what your saying Dave, and I wish I could say I agree... but I cant.  Reason being?  I havent been around nearly long enough to experience the changes in racing since the TD's have expanded.  I agree completely with the thought and have heard enough about you to recognize that you really dont have too much to say unless you know what your sayin  ;)  So I can TOTALLY agree with the possibility, but I wont pretend to really know anything about something I dont... thats just me.  It DOES make sense though, why race when you can do TD's.... More TD's means shorter grids, shorter grids means higher entry fee's and so on....

More simply put, my experiences are all I have to draw opinions on.  My only point to the posts was to give just that my opinion.. as I mentioned, I am really nobody.  Just another face in the crowd that probably wont be around full time more than a year or 2 and then it will be 3-4 races a year and a handful of TD's.  I just wanted to add my 2 cents where I thought it may be helpful.  Riding a motorcycle is a sport, anyway that promotes it (racing, TD's, group rides, rallys) that have a positive spin only make the sport grow...maybe not in the direction some would like it to... but grow nonetheless.  thankd for the insight, 'll keep that in mind when I think about hangin up the racing... maybe it'll keep me in another year or 2.  I'd like to do my part to keep racing a reality!

[G 97]

Well....

"The sport"

Which is it?

Track riding?

Racing?

Two very distinct areas, but the track day programs have cut into racing.  How many track day programs are there out there?  Fewer racing organizations, certainly.  Price hikes for racers?  The result of escalating prices by race tracks that have been a result of various track day programs, cars and bikes, willing to buy into the weekend programs to get members.

How long will it be before the only opportunity to race is at an upper level?  Will the track day really give you the opportunity to test yourself?  Anyway, food for thought...

There's more to the "sport" than meets the eye.,..

Yes two distinct areas but at the same time very similar.  Both involve people enjoying a particular form of entertainment which is riding high performance motorcycle on a closed course.  Racing at club level is nothing but a hobby with the exception of a few who chase contingency money.  What else do you really get out of it?    

Do track days drive the market to such a degree that it dictates racers fees?  I highly doubt it.
I understand the issue of supply and demand with regards to tracks and the limited amount of weekend dates available.   From my experience track days have displaced far more none racing events and filed previously empty weekends.  Which in effect helps out racing because new tracks will be built and existing tracks can obtain a level of profitability that allows them to budget improvements etc.  

One could make the statement that track days have indeed become a force in the market place.  But is this the result of the track day organizations driving this or is it in response from pre-existing need in the market place.   I think the need was clearly in the market place and track days simply filled that need.  

The truth of the matter is many people enjoy getting on the track with out "racing" involved.  Track days give them that choice.  NESBA did not drive this.  The individuals did.   Why is "racing" deemed anymore critical or any more viable in the market place?   Trackday organization and racing organizations do not drive the market.  Individuals do.    

I can remember not long ago that we never ever got any practice days especially prior to RA.  NESBA is offering a chance for racers to get some practice in prior to this event.  First and foremost we are a trackday organization.  An organization that has an ADVANCED level group that provides an excellent environment for racers to get some practice time.  
 :)

[Super Dave]

The MIC is saying that it seems like manufacturers finally sold more than one million bikes last year, or the year before...I don't know.

That's literally double from ten years ago.

Ten years ago, there were over 100 riders that actually did laps to try and qualify for the 600 Supersport race at Daytona.  Tires were in the $300 range for a set.

Now, you have more spots on the grid that people that even attempted to race it.

52 weekends at each track.  What are there, 45 or 50 tracks now?  You're gonna lose some time with Christmas and New Year.  

Racing, even at a sportsman level, still has to have some kind of spectator appeal.  Certainly not going to have people attending on weekdays to watch a race of any kind, more or less.  

TD's and racing are part of the same thing, motorcycling, but competing for a finite amount of space.  

Have track days and racing days conflicted.  Yes.  I know so, I won't elaborate.

Has a TD guy had substantial success to be able to jump in and be ultracompetitive because of TD success in advanced groups?  

I can't come up with any really good examples.  I've seen successful racers show up at TD's for play time. How would you define success?  I'd say that a rider would be able to come to an amateur road race and run inside the top five consistently.  That should put a rider within a maybe three to five seconds within the fastest experts, the really fast ones.

[G 97]

Ah yes, good old MIC data.    Although motorcycle unit sales have been steadily increasing and reached over a million units retailed.  The majority of such unit sales growth was with cruisers, play bikes, and ATV's.   Sport bike sales were basically flat comparably.  Again it is the consumer deciding, not the industry dictating.  
 
I will say that several NESBA track guys have gone on and done quite well in WERA and CCS events out East/South East.  I even recall the term "NESBA Cherry Picker" being coined as a result.  

For myself I don't use track guys becoming racers or racers doing track days as a litmus test.  Ultimately the continued longevity of any organization,(in this case trackdays and race organizations), will purely be determined by the individuals in the market place and the response given towards those individuals.    

NESBA does not force anyone to not race. NESBA does not force anyone to do track days.  NESBA simply provides a venue for those who do chose to do track day to get on the track in a safe and controlled learning environment.   It's the individual who chooses. The day that those individuals choose to race and to not do track days is the day NESBA ceases to operate as we have no control to drive it.   In the meantime our goal is to be the preeminent provider of value added trackdays coast to coast.  Southwest and Florida will follow.  Plus NESBA has better weather.  ;)

[Super Dave]

The majority of such unit sales growth was with cruisers, play bikes, and ATV's.   Sport bike sales were basically flat

As per their release...

"Cruisers remained the top sellers, followed by sportbikes and touring bikes."

"Compared with 2003, sales of the major brands last year rose 4.7 percent. Among those 12 brands, cruiser models, sportbikes, touring bikes, traditional (or "naked") bikes, and dual-purpose bikes led the way in percentage increases."

Where does it say sportbike sales are flat? ???

[motovid.com]

hey, I'm quite ignorant on the market data here, MIC or otherwise. But something I read in the latest industry rag on the recent kawasaki 636 success from last year included outselling their cruiser line with number of units sold - is this true? Is this even possible?

hmm, sport rider or motocyclist I think...

I guess I am simply saying what most everyone here already know;

It seems to me our sport is growing and we need someplace to experience this, race or practice or otherwise- safely.

it is an interesting market development for our sport that the race organizations themselves have jumped into this new business. It does make sense. They must see the opportunity in TD events and as such schedule race events for said opportunity, e.g. small local market sprint races get one race date and one TD date just to make this happen. Otherwise, what does the event organizer do? cancel the event.  

So from a very high level, the market opportunity; is in essence, a migration of bikes, riders and the community from the street to the track in some fashion. Which prior to the creation of TD companies and road race schools, the Race Organizations themselves were the ONLY ones providing such access to the track facility. Perhaps, the market is simply moving in the other direction, which would speak to the race organized track day business involvement and interest.

(register racers & new racers comparison with history numbers would identify this, up or down I think)

Is this a fair assessment Elder, Wiser Racers, and Industry Gurus ?

[Super Dave]

Yeah, Mike, it's an interesting thing.

There were no track days when I started.  I think you had the California Superbike School, Ed Bargy, and Reg Pridmore.  Track day programs are a recent addition to the market.

There are more bikes in the market place.  If X many people that buy sportbikes race, a small number.  There were only races to do.

Then track days, competing for a finite number of days.  And a number of riders.

Now, yeah, racing isn't for everyone.  But it is for someone.  

Racing cost more for an organization.  Starters, flags, licensing, rule books, trophies, purses, accounting for 1099's...

So, the track day orgs have some real advantages.  Less overhead.  A track day can really leverage against an org.  Unless you've got a good global insurance plan...how ya gonna afford a racing organization?  

I think the industry is lagging behind, the American motorcycle industry.  They drop gobs of money on a couple of teams and leave everything else in the dark.  There is no feeder program for racers.  You're not going to get fast, in the racing sense, doing track days.  You've got to develope something somewhere...

Anyway...more later...I'm at work...

[motovid.com]

hmm. I think I am starting to at least get a sense of direction....

super, great point; I think there is an absolute distinction about the racer and track day enthusiast requirements. Perhaps that is precisely what these new organizations must deal with simply to address market demand.

Is there a place for sportbike road racing? Without question, and I would say defensively, grass-roots, club racing must be considered as a core feeder system, supported by the regional, and national race organizations for further promotion to the highest professional level.

I think we are getting the all both, especially if/[as] the market grows.

A growing market of Racing Programs
and an emerging market of Track Day Programs


However, as you further identify Super, one should NOT construe the other as comparable competition- clearly they are in different market segments with vastly different value propostions and challenges.

same sandbox - nonetheless  8)