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Author Topic: What will kit ECU do for you ?  (Read 7809 times)

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dsb

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Re: What will kit ECU do for you ?
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2005, 07:33:25 am »
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I wasn't trying to parade "superior intellect" and infact most know I'm the biggest dumbass on this BBS.  I have no problem admitting it.  But, I do know electronics, and I usually explain all my answers should I give one in it's entirety.  That's just me.  

I did do a powercommander on the R6 but used a DynoJet Supplied file on that bike.

<snip> Nobody cares about your Ducati..<snip>

Trial and Error is all it comes down to.



"But, I do know electronics, and I usually explain all my answers should I give one in it's entirety."

In the words of R.P.Feynman : 'If you can't explain it to a freshman, you don't really understand it' ... Your replies on this thread have been nothing more than showmanship, and I think you are very impressed with yourself...

"I did do a powercommander on the R6 but used a DynoJet Supplied file on that bike." ... So basically you have no first hand knowledge of what it takes to tune an R6 using either a Power Commander or the kit ECU...

"Trial and Error is all it comes down to"... You would think that someone with your vast electronics knowledge would be able to do better than the WAG method...
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cornercamping

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Re: What will kit ECU do for you ?
« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2005, 07:44:00 am »
I have a BSEE.  I've designed approx. 60-70 different single board computers over the years for different applications.  It can be an R6, a Corvette, or a Semi.  More or less, it's all pretty much the same difference.  An ECU is an ECU.  The size of code and functional properties are the difference.  Therefore, it being a Yamaha, Suzuki,, R1, R6, or a MotoGP 500, it doesn't matter.  You're acting like it makes a difference.  It doesn't.  Not a single bit.  The only difference is the OS in the ECU.  I'd bet that you could take an R6 ECU, and and R1 ECU and they are the same thing except for the files inside of it.  That's what happens in mass manufacturing.  
As far as "showing off," I'm not.  I'm trying to help on a subject I am very familiar with, and have experiance in.  Do you want real answers, or do you want "consumer answers" where you get a bunch of B.S.   If you want consumer answers, call the manufacturer and ask one of the sales reps, and he'll sugarcote the whole thing and tell you all kinds of B.S.   If you want the real answer, I'll be more than happy to provide it if I know it.  Mechanically, I'm an idiot.  I've stated that over and over.  Electronically I know what I'm doing.  If I can help, I'll be more than happy.  If I can't, I won't answer the question.  Like I said, if you want B.S., call the sales reps. that will tell you it'll give you 30 RWHP and such.  If you want to know what you're really dealing with and what you're going to get, ask the people that know.  

;)
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cornercamping

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Re: What will kit ECU do for you ?
« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2005, 07:53:57 am »
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"Trial and Error is all it comes down to"... You would think that someone with your vast electronics knowledge would be able to do better than the WAG method...


Uhm.. that's reality.  You do understand that even the smallest change in enviromental factors such as air temp. completely changes operational characteristics of the bike right?  That's why it's trail and error.  You have to deal with factors that are beyond your control.  There is no way to make it perfect.  It's just like gearing.  Do you run the same gearing at every single race track, or do you change sprockets based on the track? I don't.  I use the same sprockets everywhere because I'm not fast enough for it to make a difference.  For some people, sprockets make a difference when it comes to where they stand on the podium.  
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dsb

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Re: What will kit ECU do for you ?
« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2005, 08:48:43 am »
According to DynoJet, with a power commander you can alter the A/F ration in the low, mid and upper rpm ranges...

According to the Yamaha kit manual, with the kit ECU, you can chose between multiple 'maps', alter the ignition timing from +6 degrees to -6 degrees from stock in 2 degree incroments, alter the A/F ratio at 25% throttle beloww 3000 rpm, alter the A/F ratio at 25% throttle above 3000 rpm, alter the A/F ratio between 25% and 90% throttle, and alter the A/F ratio above 90% throttle.

So according to Dan... Yamaha is full of shit?
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cornercamping

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Re: What will kit ECU do for you ?
« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2005, 09:03:34 am »
No, Yamaha is not full of it.  They're product allows you to adjust per the perimeters they have written.  
The powercommander adjusts based on the FILE you upload which they call maps.  If you look at the available maps that they offer for an 05 R6 here http://www.powercommander.com/415-411.shtml you'll see what someone has already written.  Now, you can write your own if you want.  They provide the software to do it.  Therefore, the powercommander is infinetly tuneable because you can write your own custom map.  
The Yamaha ECU only offers you the different options of selecting what has been written by them.  You can't change the actual map.  You can only select between the one's they offer.    The powercommander allows you to write your own.  
For instance, a good way to start with the powercommander would be to download the ZERO MAP.  Then, put the bike on the dyno, and start making adjustments and see the results and then when you're happy, save that map.  You could technically do that at the race track for every single track out there and save each map and label it for the track.
With the Yamaha ECU, you have option 1, 2, 3, 4 and you can only select those options, not change them.  Sure, one option may work better than another, but that's it.  You can't tweak it the way you can a powercommander map.  
The reason they give you a zero map for the bikes with a powercomander is so you have a starting point to customize the tune from.  Therefore, you have alot more options with a powercommander as opposed to an ECU that only allows you to select 4 different maps that you can't fine tune.

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dsb

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Re: What will kit ECU do for you ?
« Reply #29 on: January 20, 2005, 09:13:50 am »
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<snip>
With the Yamaha ECU, you have option 1, 2, 3, 4 and you can only select those options, not change them.  Sure, one option may work better than another, but that's it.  You can't tweak it the way you can a powercommander map.  
The reason they give you a zero map for the bikes with a powercomander is so you have a starting point to customize the tune from.  Therefore, you have alot more options with a powercommander as opposed to an ECU that only allows you to select 4 different maps that you can't fine tune.



"With the Yamaha ECU, you have option 1, 2, 3, 4 and you can only select those options, not change them."

That's the whole point, according to Yamaha, you _can_ change them, you can richen and lean within those 4 zones/protocols, as well as alter the timing...
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cornercamping

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Re: What will kit ECU do for you ?
« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2005, 09:30:10 am »
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"With the Yamaha ECU, you have option 1, 2, 3, 4 and you can only select those options, not change them."

That's the whole point, according to Yamaha, you _can_ change them, you can richen and lean within those 4 zones/protocols, as well as alter the timing...


And my point is that even though you can alter, you can't do it as much as you can with a powercommander.

For instance, let's say with Yamaha you can go up 1.  With a powercommander, you can go up 0.01 which means it offers better tuneability.  
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dsb

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Re: What will kit ECU do for you ?
« Reply #31 on: January 20, 2005, 10:17:49 am »
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And my point is that even though you can alter, you can't do it as much as you can with a powercommander.

For instance, let's say with Yamaha you can go up 1.  With a powercommander, you can go up 0.01 which means it offers better tuneability.  



Do you _know_ that to be the case?

Besides, when you said:
" You're not remapping.  You're using the instrument cluster to switch the available subroutines and function calls that are "generic" and are preloaded.   If you want to get technical, remapping perimeters of an ECU requires a disassembler, hex editors, a dyno, and alot of time.  The preloaded generic subroutines and function calls you are switching are used calibration should the bike run like crap on the default loop file."

it sounds to me that you are stating that you have a choice of 'map' but _cannot_ alter individual parameters within the 'map'... Have you changed your position?
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Super Dave

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Re: What will kit ECU do for you ?
« Reply #32 on: January 20, 2005, 10:38:04 am »
The PC certainly has some tuneability...

But not much.  

The R6 is pretty cool inside the "box".  Stuff can be done.  Individual cylinders, etc.  Things that can't be done on the PC.

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Super Dave

03R6-Rider

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Re: What will kit ECU do for you ?
« Reply #33 on: January 20, 2005, 11:53:24 am »
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If you want to get technical, remapping perimeters...

Actually, if you really want to get technical, it's parameters not perimeters.  Unless you're altering the physical boundaries of the ECU.  Sorry, just couldn't take it any more.

'Ya know, if you want to git "technical" 'n all...
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cornercamping

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Re: What will kit ECU do for you ?
« Reply #34 on: January 20, 2005, 12:22:18 pm »
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Do you _know_ that to be the case?

it sounds to me that you are stating that you have a choice of 'map' but _cannot_ alter individual parameters within the 'map'... Have you changed your position?


Alright, let's go over this again.  With Yamaha's kit ECU, you can do the following:

Switch Program's (main loops)
Adjust the program to an extent (subroutine for that program specifically)

So, you can adjust the main program thru the subrutines they allow (program adjustments) but there is only so far you can go either way.  For an example, let's say it's

-1, -2, -3, -4 0 1, 2, 3, 4

So, 0 is the default.  Then you can go plus or minus 4, so you have 8 total different settings, or subroutines from the default.

With a power commander, you can choose if it's 8, 650, or 1 million.  It really comes down to the file size itself.  

You can calculate speed with the following math equation dist = sqrt( (x1-x0)^2 + (y1-y0)^2 + (z1-z0)^2 )  
Then, you can have it calculated and lets say it's 124.332 miles per hour.  So, at 124.332 miles per hour, the bike misfires in 6th gear at 14,540 RPM.

What do you do?

You have 8 total options other than default on the ECU.  On a power commander, you can keep making adjustments all day and night until you get where you are happy.  

Get what I'm saying yet?

With the right knowledge and tools (mechanic and dyno) you can tweak in your powercommander because YOU can write the file itself thru a graphical PC based software.  
With the ECU, you CAN'T write software.  You can only select from what options they give you, and if what you need isn't in one of the settings, or the setting doesn't work right, you're screwed.  You have no option other than to completely rewrite the OS of the ECU.

Now, that being said, the powercommander offers more either way.  For instance, see the "Graves" files on the 2005 R6?   See how it shows what parts were on that bike during that tune?  Chances are, someone from Graves or a professional mechanic tuned that file.   Technically, it could work if you were running Yosh, and it could be fine.  But, the file was to maximize performace with Graves.   Do you have any selectability with the ECU as to what exhaust you have?  Nope, you have 8 different choices on settings for each perimeter. If the setting doesn't adjust as far as you need it to be for your bike, it's worthless.

The ECU offers less selectability to you because you can't go any further than their programs allow.  Let's say you need to be at -7 timing.  What if the ECU only allows -6.  
I don't know crap about mechanical issues or timing.  It's just an example.

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dsb

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Re: What will kit ECU do for you ?
« Reply #35 on: January 20, 2005, 03:10:12 pm »
Alright, let's go over this again.  
>I'd rather not... but hey, I'll be yor huckleberry...

With Yamaha's kit ECU, you can do the following:

Switch Program's (main loops)
Adjust the program to an extent (subroutine for that program specifically)

> pure conjecture here...

So, you can adjust the main program thru the subrutines they allow (program adjustments) but there is only so far you can go either way.  For an example, let's say it's  

-1, -2, -3, -4 0 1, 2, 3, 4

So, 0 is the default.  Then you can go plus or minus 4, so you have 8 total different settings, or subroutines from the default.  

With a power commander, you can choose if it's 8, 650, or 1 million.  It really comes down to the file size itself.
> No, you're limited by the frequency as to the available injector pulse width...  

You can calculate speed with the following math equation dist = sqrt( (x1-x0)^2 + (y1-y0)^2 + (z1-z0)^2 )    
Then, you can have it calculated and lets say it's 124.332 miles per hour.  So, at 124.332 miles per hour, the bike misfires in 6th gear at 14,540 RPM.
> another gratutious use of irrelevant techno-bable...

What do you do?
>Obviously not what you'd do...

You have 8 total options other than default on the ECU.  On a power commander, you can keep making adjustments all day and night until you get where you are happy.
> a million choices at 4 possible outcomes doesn't make _me_ happy...  

Get what I'm saying yet?
> Sure, i've heard BS before...

With the right knowledge and tools (mechanic and dyno) you can tweak in your powercommander because YOU can write the file itself thru a graphical PC based software.
>No, you can alter the injector pulse width per rpm, you cannot alter the timing nor can you reference the throttle position...
   
With the ECU, you CAN'T write software.  You can only select from what options they give you, and if what you need isn't in one of the settings, or the setting doesn't work right, you're screwed.
>So what was the point of that diatribe at the begining of this thread? Oh, that's right, you were 'helping'...

 You have no option other than to completely rewrite the OS of the ECU.
> You first...

Now, that being said, the powercommander offers more either way.  For instance, see the "Graves" files on the 2005 R6?   See how it shows what parts were on that bike during that tune?  Chances are, someone from Graves or a professional mechanic tuned that file.   Technically, it could work if you were running Yosh, and it could be fine.  But, the file was to maximize performace with Graves.   Do you have any selectability with the ECU as to what exhaust you have?  Nope, you have 8 different choices on settings for each perimeter. If the setting doesn't adjust as far as you need it to be for your bike, it's worthless.
> First off, you don't know how many parameters there are... Second off, the ECU/Power Commander doesn't know squat about the brand of pipe, the only thing important here is the amount of adjustability offered...

The ECU offers less selectability to you because you can't go any further than their programs allow.  Let's say you need to be at -7 timing.  What if the ECU only allows -6.
> Given that the Power Commander doesn't alter the timing, this point is moot...
 
I don't know crap about mechanical issues or timing.
> Finally, a point I can agree with... And I would add that you know nothing about the performance or tunability of Yamaha's kit ECU or the Power Commander for that matter...

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