Ohlins Shock on First Gen. SV

[Super Dave]

LOL!

I'm here to work for people, if they make the decision to work with me.

So, you can take any school you feel works for you.

Proud?  Yeah, I'm proud of the work that riders do.  But really it comes down to a riders work, luck, and so on.

Many ways to do it.  You have to make the decision.

Back to decisions.

I'm knowledgeable enough that I can probably set up a bike pretty well.  I know what I'm looking for, I understand how the package works for itself.

But I still use 4&6's GMD set up to get my geometry right at the beginning so I can ride the bike and work on fine tuning, rather than getting into the ball park.

I have had riders show up to my racer university with bikes completely no prepared to ride.  Chain too tight and no other options as an example.  What am I supposed to do?  What a rider feels from the bike translates into how fast a rider feels they can comfortably ride the bike.  If we can't make changes, are you just going to ride around the issue?

I've got a video tape of a race at Laguna from 1984.  Was play time for KR on the reed valve YZR500.  Anyway, he wasted the tire.  Dennis Torres asked Kenny, "How did you compensate with riding style for the problems with the motorcycle?"  Kenny looked at him kind of goofy and replied, "Uh, I went slower."  

You've got to have the bike in the ball park.

[james-redsv]

LOL!
 

You've got to have the bike in the ball park.

Thats what I gave him, some ball park numbers! :o

[Super Dave]

You've got to take into account the tire you use...they have different heights.

And if your gearing is different where the effective swingarm length is different, it will all change too.

And this...

Spring rate...is it correct?  How much preload then?  That part of ride height will affect a bikes where everything is exactly the same in the rear shock length...but they will handle differently.

People measure from the upper triple clamp up...
but we have production parts here.  Add up all the pieces...really the important measurement would be from the lower triple clamp to the front axle.

So, if you'd like to share the information, I'm sure it would give him a real ball park starting point from your set up.

[james-redsv]

Dave, I dont think you have much experience with SVs as your bikes are more sensitive to small changes, you know them well. He said he had the correct spring for his weight, everyone on SVs run about 25-30mm of sag with gear on, 0-5mm bike only sag, thats the preload, pretty much standard for any bike, I assumed he has this much sag. Everyone on SVs has 10mm of fork showing above the triples. Everyone on most all tracks except Daytona run the stock gearing, 15-45 or at the most one up or one down on the rear, which doesnt change the rear height to any noticable degree. Dunlops and Pirellis are about the same height, michlins are taller. I know only 2 people out of 20 that run michlins on SVs. Most everone is on Pirellis because up until late last year dunlop didnt offer a 160 208gp, they do now though. If everything on his bike is anywhere close to this and his shock is not 13 5/8 long then his ride height is off. ;D Thats my observations in the EX class in the midatlantic and SE. :P If anyone is running something else its some big secret and they wont tell you anyway. :-X

[Super Dave]

Assumptions...

I've ridden a few SV's, EX's...lots of stuff.

25mm of sag...that's pretty tight.  0-5mm of free sag under the weight of the bike...really tight again too.

Any bike is sensitive to changes...can the rider recognize that it's really bike giving feedback is usually the problem.

I run about 46mm of sag in the front of my R6.  around 38mm in back.  I think we're probably at like 18mm of free sag in the back...but I'm using a different spring too.

[james-redsv]

I run about 46mm of sag in the front of my R6.  

[/quote]
If i ran that much sag on the front forks the fender would hit the radiator, he he . ;D

[Super Dave]

It's related to the rising rate springs that I use in my forks...and on my rear shock too.  

And I'll probably run a similar set up, rising rate springs, on my H1 too.

So, things are back at you now...

Does your bike handle in a way that allows you to exploit the handling?  Or do you strive to figure out where you're loosing speed in the entries and exits?  

Then, what are you going to do to change that?  Or do you leave it the same way and just try to "run it in harder", "throw it over faster", "brake later", and all the other one liners...

Here's what I've seen...

Now, recognize that I started doing this silly stuff a long time ago.  I was younger and motivated.  I did things because I could.  Ego.  Felt that I had the same stuff as everyone else.  I arrived at the AMA level and was lucky enough to get hooked up with the right person to learn a few things from.  Did well, ran out of money, but got offers to ride some pretty unique bikes in the form of priceless vintage machines.  Again, it's got two wheels, but they don't handle like the new stuff.

I learned enough racing at the level I did to have some kind of a knowledge base to recognize that my own feelings about how something feels is actually relevant.  Then I got good enough that I could make changes to bikes to accomodate things...unique tire shapes, tracks, etc.

Vintage bikes can be similar, but, additionally, a whole different ball game.  I've got all those little notes in my head about the issues that we had on particular bikes, etc.  It all goes back to the relationship in the geometry in the bike.  Old bikes can make big power.  I've raced an AHRMA 750 Honda that has as much HP as my current R6.  Only weighs a little more, and has narrow tires.  Engine signs off at about 9800RPM's vs the astronomical RPM's now.  

Anyway, that old bike has certain issues too.  I can get it to do some things, but it's at a sacrifice of another.  Everyone said we needed to do one thing.  Rode the bike, and they were all backwards.  Because of certain items, one thing needed to be one way, and that affected another item.

A rote number for a shock length is a fair ball park, but it certainly doesn't take into account all the other factors that are relevant.  

Wanna keep going?  This is free advice this time around.

[james-redsv]

For the most part if your suspension is "in the ball park" on a modern sportbike its good enough for 99% of us club racers. What is holding us back is things like, getting on the throttle late, braking too early coming into a turn, speed sensation is off from not riding during the winter,corner speed too slow being consistant with the proper lines, hitting your markers every time around etc etc.. Those things have nothing to do with shocks and springs. You can change small things around on your suspension till you turn blue in the face and if you dont have a handle on these other things it aint gonna matter. I have seen a guy turn the same lap times on a bone stock SV, suspension pipe and all, that the top AMs were turning with tricked out suspensions, motors, and the stock SV suspension has to be the worst of any newer bike. He got up to mid pack of the experts at the last race and was only a few sec behind me at the finish, I was 4th EX at the finish. Im a 2nd year expert and still learning to do those things consistly, my suspension is "in the ball park" and it has yet to let me down. My point is get your stuff at least close to what the top guys are running, then dont worry about it, then learn all those other things that are really holding us back. Just being a .25 sec late on the throttle to the top guy, is 1 sec late ever four turns and 3 sec a lap on a 12 turn track. Now if you are in the top 1% and AMA pro bound, then you have the riding skills down, then you can use the fine tuning supension settings to your advantage, you also need to get the last little drop of HP from your motor as well. At the club level its mostly the rider that wins not the suspension or the motor.  8)

[grasshopper]

Thats basically all I want to do is be in the ball park with this suspension issue, and have a standard base line setting. I appreciate you guys taking the time to reply to this topic. I'm not a pro Racer and never will be. But I want and will have my bike in the ball park this year. I'm just out there to have fun and ride my motorcycle.

I have the shock off the bike rite now, I'll take a measurement and make sure I have the 13 and 5/8 that James is talking about. Then I'll go from there.

So James? If I have 13 and 5/8 length on my rear shock and the correct spring rate, I should be able to get in the ball park correct?

[chris_chops]

I have the shock off the bike rite now, I'll take a measurement and make sure I have the 13 and 5/8 that James is talking about. Then I'll go from there.

So James? If I have 13 and 5/8 length on my rear shock and the correct spring rate, I should be able to get in the ball park correct?

Nick,
     Call us down at SbkItalia if you need any springs or just advice off of the 'net".  Talking person to person is still the best way to filter out all the good and bad info.  I'd be glad to help you get that thing sorted.  I've never raced on an SV, but I've displaced quite a few of them off of the podium.  Uh oh, there is that ego thing that Dave was talking about.
    

       Dave, are you going to race the Autobahn down here in Joliet?  Our shop is 20 minutes away.  Come on buy ya goofball!!!

[grasshopper]

I went home for lunch and measured the shock from eye to eye and its 13 and 5/8 of an inch long.

The spring I have on it now reads

01093 31/95 L164<-- Ohlins said this spring is for my weight.

I also acquired another spring for it that reads

1093 44/95 L164 <- I was told this spring is for a heavier rider.

I have no idea what these #'s mean, I'm going to call Ohlins and find out.

[Super Dave]

For the most part if your suspension is "in the ball park" on a modern sportbike its good enough for 99% of us club racers. What is holding us back is things like, getting on the throttle late, braking too early coming into a turn, speed sensation is off from not riding during the winter,corner speed too slow being consistant with the proper lines, hitting your markers every time around etc etc.. Those things have nothing to do with shocks and springs.

No, it's relevent.

Give me a fair rider that can actually use the controls, the brake throttle, etc., I can change things to make it work better or worse...yeah, I'd want to make it better, but I can make it worse to make my point.

The 1% guys are so quick reacted that they can usually just quickly pick up the bike from falling over, spinning out, etc. with bad springs, poor dampening, etc.

They are often the hardest to work with because they don't have a clue on what they are feeling, they just save it time after time after time.

Us normal people react to some kind of feel.  Can't necessarily put a finger on it, but it might just not feel like we can open the gas at a certain time.  Yeah, there are times when it comes down to execution...not braking into a corner and opening the gas, etc...Those are issues all on their own...but I've worked with guys in my VRU program with a pretty stock SV.  I know he knows how to ride a bike, but he gets on the SV and he can't translate...well, it's because the suspension is a certain way.  He's trying to do things, and the chassis just works against him.  He doesn't know what to do, and that's where I come in.  I ride, make changes, send him out, me ride, he ride.  Make changes to get the thing to actually turn like it should, without constant effort to get it to follow a line.  Eventually, we run out of adjustments and time, but now the rider recognizes that there are certain things that the bike just won't allow him to do until the chassis is set up better.  Trying to overcome the mechanical difficulties of the chassis in that case is just a sentence to go out and fall over.

Rider and Suspension issues...they are related.  How long will it take?  

VRU - May 26th, August 25th...  Don't have to be a pro racer.  But you don't have to feel like the ride is terror all the time.  Got to make decisions.

Matt...ACC?  Don't know.  At this point, no.  Something might change, but I don't know.  Might be there for a track day program, but no racing there for me, I do know that.  Planning to do more AMA racing with my cancer program.