636 Suspension advice?

[1fastmofo]

Guys,

[DISCLAIMER] I know everyone pays a lot for suspension measurements,
setup assistance etc... I understand to know exactly where the bike
is, I should have it measured. [/DISCLAIMER] But, all that aside...

Here are the facts:
03' Kawi 636
I had my front end revalved & resprung by GMD.
My forks are raised 5mm more than stock in the triples (stock).
I weigh around 180 lbs with gear.
I use Dunlop tires.

I just purchased a Penske double adj shock. Can anyone SUGGEST a
ballpark shock length? If you're not willing to share any info I
understand. If you can or can point me in the right direction to such
info it would be greatly appreciated.

I'm ready for the flames as well. I'm only asking for some help.

Thanks,
Ray
# 171

[mdr14]

I know some shops were jacking the crap out of the rear to get the bikes to turn in. That created a whole new set of problems when you hit a certain lap time.

Kawasaki's geometry on that bike looked good on paper but did not translate well into the real world in the hands of privateers (The Kawasaki factory team is not the real world.)

A better AND CCS SUPERSPORT LEGAL solution is to install different steerring head bearing races that have a differnt angle machined into them. You will reduce rake with those and get the bike to turn in better with out jacking it up in the rear.

Other than that, jack it up in the rear to the moon and don't ride fast.

[J Farrell / Speed Tech Motorsp]

Last I checked the geometry on the 636 is the same as the geometry on the 600RR. I guess Shawn Conrad and myself must have just been going slow. Well we pulled off 1:11's at Blackhawk, 1:24's at Gingerman and I did several 2:23's at Road America so until your going that quick I would recommend you leave the stock bearing races in the forks. I'll give you my info free if you want it. I'll go out and measure my 04 ZX6RR if you want. I also have a Penske Double Adjusting shock. Oh yah, the forks are still stock also. Haven't pulled the caps off them yet from the dealer floor. Added 2 clicks of compression damping left everything else stock.
I do know that the internals in the forks are different in the 04 6RR than the 636's or the 03 6RR's.
My bikes are also going to be on the classifieds in the next couple days. I like to believe mechanically setup bike and the most important thing of all is riding skill. You can't replace it. I can't wait to ride the 05 ZX6RR's. Tommy already went faster on the stock 05 ZX6RR in Spain than he did on his 04 Race Bike.
Latest article in Roadracing World about the new R6 is Steve Atlas who we all remember is pretty fast on a bike, said he didn't change anything on the suspension. The new bikes are pretty good in the chassis now. You can buy a new sportbike put minor mods on it and go pretty fast if you know how to ride the thing.
I think we should have an all out stock class in CCS or AMA with any size bike class whatever it may be. You'll be surprised how fast they will go. :o

[1fastmofo]

If it will be a simple to check your shock length, then that would be great. I would appreciate it. If not, no biggie.

Thanks for the help!
Ray

[dwilson]

636 shock is an excellent bolt-on upgrade for 99-02 SV650.  You might consider posting it on an SV board or Ebay.  They usually sell for ~$75 and it beats throwing it out  ;)

[1fastmofo]

Thanks for that advice!  ;D

[Super Dave]

If it will be a simple to check your shock length, then that would be great. I would appreciate it. If not, no biggie.

Thanks for the help!
Ray

If Jason is helping, you should find out what tire he's using (tires have different heights), and you should find out how he set the fork tubes in the triple clamps.  

All this turn in stuff is nice, but I spend a little more time in the corner than I do turning in for it...and that will be relevent how the chassis feels to you.

[1fastmofo]

Good point Dave. I agree. I'll make sure to ask him. I made sure to add what tires I use and where I set my forks in my first post. I'm just looking for a good starting point. I'll be learning this bike anyways since I haven't ever ridden it. I'm sure it'll be very different from my 91' F2 that I raced all last year. :D

[DanO966]

Hey man....
I have an '03 636.  I run michelins...

I tried all kinds of stuff...even the GMD "sweet" #s...(which they slammed the front and jacked up the rear)they didn't work all that well....well as you go faster!  They seem to work ok for a mid pack expert pace but as you go faster...you run into all kinds of problems...tire wear problems, front end tucking problems, chatter...etc.

I work a lot with Mike Fitzgerald aka Thermosman...
as I raised up the front the better it got.  With my michelins my last set up was; the forks were flush w/ the triples and I slammed the shock (which is a reworked hyperpro)with the stock shock shim.
the bike started to work pretty good.  You need to make sure that you have the correct rear spring on it to hold up the rear mid corner, cuz the bike tends to want to run wide mid corner/exit. Or you can try adding low speed comp to the rear....
 My A bike is a R6 so I don't have all that much time on my 636 at a fast pace.  

Hope this helps you...
I work a lot with Matt Drucker and Mike Fitzgerald...so if you have any other questions let me know or maybe try giving them a shout.

Md racing 309-526-3246
Thermosman 703 628-6818

[Super Dave]

I tried all kinds of stuff...even the GMD "sweet" #s...(which they slammed the front and jacked up the rear)they didn't work all that well....well as you go faster!  They seem to work ok for a mid pack expert pace but as you go faster...you run into all kinds of problems...tire wear problems, front end tucking problems, chatter...etc.

Ok, but we both have R6's.

I don't have my front slammed.  Neither does yours.  Not sure if it was lost in translation or what, but my old butt not trying still goes pretty well.  I think that's front of the pack expert pace , right?

Regardless, the "sweet numbers" can get messy if issues like spring rate, preload, and dampening are done up in a way that they over come each other.  It's a package.  

I have worked with riders that have over done one thing to do something that wrecked the whole set up.  Recognizing that difference can be hard.  And translating those issues to a tuner can be the loss.

Anyway...

You have options.  

Honda America has a GMD thing.  Graves' has used one.  A lot of fast riders have.  And some slow ones.  You have lots of options.  Often, the riders don't recognize the variables that are present.  Yeah, you measure a guy's fork tube height above the triple clamps, but you didn't recognize the fact that the internal work on the fork makes the distance the front axle is from the lower triple clamp longer.  Someons measured the shock length, but didn't bother recognizing that the rear axle was located 20mm forward in the swingarm.

And it's issues like that that can get a rider out of the "center" of the "good handling" circle.

[1fastmofo]

I'm just going to ride the thing and see what happens. I'm working more on my riding than worrying about set up. I was able to put my 91' F2 on the podium in MWSS, MWSB, and HWSS. I never once adjusted anything, I just rode it. Granted it was the AM class.

I understand that when moving up set up becomes even more important. For now, I'm just going to ride the thing. This will be my first time on Dunlops, GMD forks, Penske shocks, and the 636. So it will all be a learning experience.

I don't have much faith in "sweet numbers" or any other program that is out there since I don't have any experience with them. That I think is something that I'll just have to learn for myself.

[DanO966]

Ok, but we both have R6's.

I don't have my front slammed.  Neither does yours.  

Dave
I'm not talking about my R6, I'm talking about my Kawasaki 636.  
The setup on my R6 is totally different from the set up of my 636.  

And about the sweet #s....GMD, well computrak is trying to achieve the "so call" correct rake and trail #s...with their optimization And to get to that they, ended up jacking up the rear end (like 17mm over stock) and slamming the front end (something like 10mm lower then stock) which I don't think is the correct way to go...

But again what you said...it's a whole package...you could have the correct geometry but have the spring rates, valving etc messed up and it will not work..or vise versa.