Supersport weight limits

[sdiver68]

There are few if any guys that can ride todays machines at there limits and NONE of them are in CCS OR WERA.

Are you saying there is no one in CCS or WERA that can run a stock Supersport cycle to its limits? If so,  ::)  Are you saying that more HP and less weight does not translate into an on track advantage?  ::)  

Having said that, and I'm sure Super Dave will come riding in talking about how the rider is 90%+, which I agree, but the difference between 1st and 4th is often less than 1%, maybe 2-4 bike lengths over 15 miles.  

[Super Dave]

Well, if that wasn't an invitation....

CCS has scales and has been offered scales to use in all regions.

A Dynojet dyno can be fooled.  And there can be a variation between dynos +/-7%.

Weight is absolute, pretty much.  It doesn't vary unless you fill the bike with oil or gas, etc.

And less weight equals more HP.  Race a WRX Subaru against a Mustang GT.

Losing weight can be technical.  Removing starters and generators (it is allowed in CCS Supersport).  It can be expensive.  Go buy a little bit of titainium rather than a lot.

Supersport is a production based class.  I believe that it should require a functioning charging system and starter, and a reasonable minimum weight.  A rider should be able to come with his street bike and FEEL as though they are on a reasonably level playing field.

Weight is easy.  Put it on a scale.  Doesn't require any excessive training, variations for tires, etc.

Regardless, weight is relevant.  Take a 370# SV against a 320# SV.  Which can acclerate faster?  Which can slow down faster?

Yes, yes, yes, Aaron pounds Hacking.  Wouldn't you expect that from a down home guy that worked to get his ride vs a guy that destroys $3million dollars worth of bikes (actual figure given to me by someone I know at Yoshimura...).

Rider is just about everything you need.  But being on par with everyone does make things more reasonable.

I read where someone said, "The rider is 95%.  The other 5% is the bike.  Make the 5% count."

Does make a lot of sense.  If I were to spend money, I would do it on suspension, then weight items, then HP.  Suspension is necesary for handing and consistnency, weight helps acceleration and handling, and HP...  well, someone might have to tune it and it might not be reliable.

$.02

[sdiver68]

Ahhh, SD, its only 'cause I respect your opinion :)

[tcchin]

Borrowing everyone else's math: 3hp x 5% = .15hp

Wow.

[Super Dave]

My GSXR600 made about 108HP last year 2002.  It weighed in at 380 with some gas in it once when I threw it across the scales.  I weigh 175 or so and all my stuff makes me an easy 190.  

The ratio there is about 5.27.

If I used my HP figures from 2001, they were about 104 with the same weight.  Ratio there is 5.48.

By reducing 22 pounds from the motorcycle, or me, I could have saved myself the money in the engine and had the same power to weight ratio.

Gasoline weighs 5.5 to 7 pounds.

The reference to the 5% on the motorcycle refered to the fact that it is still the rider that is in ultimate control of the bike.

Put yourself on a bike that makes three more HP at Daytona, and, as lore has it, you can gain one second.  We infered what my lap times in a 2002 race would be on a vintage bike that I had raced at Daytona in 2000.  Based on the same weight of everything and HP being the thing that changed, we were pretty much spot on with the figure.

Nothing to argue, but there is a difference when something can go faster than something else.  

Supersport is supposed to be a reasonable class to get into.  But if another competitor spends copius amounts of money in weight savings, they will reap rewards.  Having weight limits might sereve to even the playing field a bit, but potentially not changing the out come for a better rider.

[Eddie#200]

I wonder where you would add this weight to your motorcycle.  I weigh in at 150 lbs.  I ride a 600 and 750 supersport bike.  I would need to add so much more weight to my bikes to get things equal racing aginst you bigger guys.  I think adding weight to the top of the bike vs the bottom would make it handle funny.

[tcchin]

At Daytona, acceleration of mass is not nearly as important as opposing aerodynamic losses with engine power. Within reason, a bike that weighs less but has the same power:weight ratio as a heavier bike will still be slower around Daytona. Again, that's within reason. The heavier bike has more power, power is defined as force x velocity, and the dominant force at 150+ mph is aerodynamic in origin.

Going back to the Aaron vs. Jamie thing, I don't recall Jamie being two seconds per lap faster than Aaron last year, despite his weight advantage. The same goes for Nicky, Miguel, Kurtis, Anthony, Eric, etc. Power:weight only matters at relatively low speeds, during braking and when changing directions quickly - things for which Daytona is not famous.

How can competitors spend huge amounts of money on lightening stock bikes in supersport? Carbon bodywork (maybe 3 lbs.) and Ti pipes (maybe 3 lbs.)? Six pounds is less than the difference from model-to-model over the years. We can't use aftermarket wheels, forks, brakes, or chassis parts, so where can we the spend money? I just don't see the point in creating additional rules that serve no purpose other than adding expense and complication to the race event itself.

For the record, the numbers I used two posts ago are based on the GSX-R600's we prepared in 2001 for AMA Supersport that weighed roughly 360 lbs. in tech and produced 114.5 bhp on Dynojet's own truck-mounted 250 dyno. With our 145-lb rider, our power:weight ratio was 4.6 lbs per horsepower. The F4i's that we prepared last year produced slightly more power at times.

[rmahr137]

How can competitors spend huge amounts of money on lightening stock bikes in supersport? Carbon bodywork (maybe 3 lbs.) and Ti pipes (maybe 3 lbs.)? Six pounds is less than the difference from model-to-model over the years. We can't use aftermarket wheels, forks, brakes, or chassis parts, so where can we the spend money? I just don't see the point in creating additional rules that serve no purpose other than adding expense and complication to the race event itself.

The supersport rules are so general that there are all kinds of things to change.  One bike this year had a carbon fiber gas tank, titanium axles, a titanium spring for Lindemann, right there is almost 3 grand worth of stuff.  I would love to have the money to spend on everything titanium or aluminum, or carbon fiber, but I don't.  

[Lowe119]

I would just be happy if I could afford a new pipe and jets.  I'm saving (or going in debt) this winter just to get upgraded suspension so I'm not all over in the corners. Then someday I'll get some braided brake lines.  ::)
I'm thinking that I had a lot more of a disadvantage with my completely stock bike this season, than others had with the bikes that were 10 pounds lighter.
I would think about it if I was racing AMA, but I agree that CCS shouldn't worry about some carbon and titanium replacements at this level.
Some of us heavy guys need to take some weight off our bike just to be closer to the guys who weigh 40+ pounds less.  ;D

[tcchin]

Did the racer with the CF fuel tank and Ti axles actually go fast, or was he just out there posing? Did his $3k investment in exotic materials actually improve his lap times or just his bragging rights?

As for the Ti spring, I wouldn't be too worried. I understand that they fatigue quickly, resulting in fracture-mode failures. Ouch! That ought to put the durability of that CF tank to the test.

[Super Dave]

We'll leave him nameless, but he is a multi time national and regional champion.

He does ride very, very well.

But the bike is unquestionably fast compared to others.  I understand what his HP figures are, and they are not out of line.

The Supersport rules are so vague in CCS, that there are many modifications that can be read into the rules that one would not think were legal as it is supersport...And they are legal.

[sportbikepete]

Does anyone have fun doing this anymore? Jesus Christ buy a bike and ride the damn thing as hard as you can. No matter what there is always going to be someone out there with more money. So take your mildly modified bike and show him up where it counts. I ride an older model GSXR and the best feeling I get is passing those newer model bikes with major $$ in them. Go home knowing that you did good with what you have. I get sick of the bike did this the bike did that, forget the bike for a minute and think how inprovement can be made on YOU. Do you hear Eric B complain about his old heavy outdated bike? No the s.o.b. goes out and rides his ass of with what he's got and never complains, how big of a win is it for him when he beats out those modern RC's and Gixxers. Blah blah blah. I know I'm going to get blasted for this, but it's winter time so why not.