Amatuer vs. Expert

[rotoboge]

What's the opinion of "qualifying" for the expert class, rather than obtaining 750+ points, and/or being a second year racer? There are some sandbaggers out there in the amatuer class that need to be re-evaluated mid-season.

I do know at least one amatuer that asked to be moved up to the expert level this last year. Not normally the thing one does, but his honesty and integrity is such that he took it upon himself to do this. We need a better system in place.

[Chuck]

Asking to be moved up mid season is different than making someone move up mid season.  What if the amature was looking forward to winning a championship or two?  His sponsors wouldn't appreciate that much, and neither would said amature.

[hi-side_racing]

There's always gonna be someone faster. It doesn't matter if you're amatuer, expert, ama level, or gp's... unless you're Rossi.

Get past it.

Oh and why would it have been less honest or somehow have less integrity if the guy just happens to be a fast amatuer and didn't request to move up ?

[rotoboge]

You do not believe a system could be adapted to use "lap times" to better qualify these groups? CCS has the historic data from those who have raced, by track, so the information is available to us- we just need to use it.  ;)

[StumpysWife]

You do not believe a system could be adapted to use "lap times" to better qualify these groups? CCS has the historic data from those who have raced, by track, so the information is available to us- we just need to use it.  ;)

They use lap times when considering petitions.

Heather

[hi-side_racing]

You do not believe a system could be adapted to use "lap times" to better qualify these groups? CCS has the historic data from those who have raced, by track, so the information is available to us- we just need to use it.  ;)

I'm just saying its not needed. I don't complain when our local AMA racers come race with us. As I said, there will always be someone faster...

[EX#996]

You do not believe a system could be adapted to use "lap times" to better qualify these groups? CCS has the historic data from those who have raced, by track, so the information is available to us- we just need to use it.  ;)

This subject has been beaten to death....

Do a search under amatuer with the date back 365 days in the general and rules sections.  You'll have your answer.

Dawn

[Super Dave]

AWhat if the amature was looking forward to winning a championship or two?  His sponsors wouldn't appreciate that much, and neither would said amature.

Well, I'll make a statement, then ask a question.

Certainly, everyone would love to win a championship.  Some are easier than others.  But, regardless, championships are about working through issues, spending money, and hopefully having championship winning performances.[/i]

However, how often did you see any company advertise an amateur championship?  Ok, LP does it, but that's their gig...along with sometimes spotty stocking of items that one needs to race...

So, although, yeah, maybe getting bumped would keep a rider from winning an amateur championship...wouldn't it be better to advertise that a rider was bumped mid year because of their performance on a sponsors product?

I think so.

I raced a bike for a guy in AHRMA, and I told him that I was going to ride it so fast that they were going to make rules against it.

They did.  Unfortunately, the bike was at a performance disadvantage, and the rules, over time, have kind of crushed what was one of the largest classes in AHRMA.  That's another story all together.

[EX#996]

Dave:

You've been around the racing scene for a long time.  I respect your opinion, but not all the racers who run CCS do it for the money or the glory.  It's just fun.

Amatuer championships....

Right now I'm looking at seven trophies and two plaques from the 2003 season.  Was Paul good enough to move to expert that season?  Yeah, he was safe enough.  Was he fast enough? No.

We knew that the amatuer season was the only opportunity to win a championship.  Paul's size, ability and finances make an expert championship very unlikely.  Perhaps after Key and Lacy retire he may have a chance.

So we took the once in a life time opportunity to get those little motorcycle trophies.  We really don't care that they say amatuer.  In your world, we wouldn't have had the opportunity.

Gee thanks....   :(

I know I said that we race for the fun of it.  These trophies are a continual reminder of the fun that we did have in the 2003 season.  

In 2004 Paul raced as an expert, we had fun, but he only got a few pieces of wood to show for it.  Now it's only the competition between the guys that run about the same lap time as he does - - but everyone likes to be called a winner once in a while.  

Why does racing always have to be about the "business of it"?  

Dawn  

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

I love you Dave, but Yeah!  What Dawn said!

[Super Dave]

Please read my intial statement.

 ???

[EX#996]

Sorry Dave....

I see that you were speaking of the sponsorship aspect of it.  However, you have stated in the past that there should be no such thing as an amatuer championship.  While reading your post, I couldn't get that thought out of my head.

Dawn

[speedster_1]

Well, I'll make a statement, then ask a question.

Certainly, everyone would love to win a championship.  Some are easier than others.  But, regardless, championships are about working through issues, spending money, and hopefully having championship winning performances.[/i]

However, how often did you see any company advertise an amateur championship?  Ok, LP does it, but that's their gig...along with sometimes spotty stocking of items that one needs to race...

So, although, yeah, maybe getting bumped would keep a rider from winning an amateur championship...wouldn't it be better to advertise that a rider was bumped mid year because of their performance on a sponsors product?

I think so.

My sponsors don't advertise my wins/champs but would rather see me on the podium as a Am and winning Championships than a 10th or back as a new expert.  Ohwell....I look forward to running with the whities next season but it will take some time to get back on top of the poduim as an Ex.

[Super Dave]

Sorry Dave....
 I couldn't get that thought out of my head.

Dawn

Well, at least I get inside some heads...LOL!

I'm still sold on the idea of three tiers of riders.  Then, I can see where things make sense.  I've kind of had way too much on my plate trying to get work, stay on top of bills, etc. to really attempt to make it better for everyone else.  

[Jeff]

My sponsors could care less where I finish, so long as people keep coming through the door buying things I recommend...

At the club level (am or ex), championships are good for bragging rights and not much else.

[Ryan125]

I only got half a season as a amatuer and I requested to stay back and they wouldnt let me. there were people who were faster than me that got two Am season's. But because someone complained I got bumped up. I think Amatuer ranks is a place to gain experince. just cause some one is fast that doesnt mean that they have the experince needed to become an expert. If some one win's half of there races and crashes the other half, I see some one who needs more experince. And some people want racers moved up cause they dont want the competition. If some one wants to stay back let them. Its their choice!!!! If you want to call them a sandbagger, all that means is that your saying that they are faster than you.

[rotoboge]

I only got half a season as a amatuer and I requested to stay back and they wouldnt let me. there were people who were faster than me that got two Am season's. But because someone complained I got bumped up.

Let's not take this so personal... :D

[Johnny B]

However, how often did you see any company advertise an amateur championship?

Ding, ding ding! We have a winner! Super Dave spelled "Amateur" correctly!
This issue will never be resolved to all partys' satisfaction. LRRS keeps track of advancement points, but also calculates a "Rider's Index" in order to keep track of a rider's performance in comparison to his immediate peers. Doing a 1:17 at Loudon might not be a big deal on a GSX-R750, but doing the same time on an EX500 is another story. So straight lap times don't tell the whole story. (How 'bout Jeff Wood into the 1:16 range on a 450CC DIRT BIKE?)
More and more people seem to be doing track days before they start racing. Perhaps the straight lap times are fast, but shouldn't they get a chance to work on their racecraft?
We can't always force people up mid-season, but we have incentives in place. In order to be eligible the Vanson "Rookie Of The Year" Award, a rider has to advance as soon as they have the points and races to do so.
I am aware that there are people who think that by getting other riders to advance, they better the odds that they might place higher in their races. NOT GONNA HAPPEN! They'll be replced by new fast riders. Best fix: Get yourself faster!  ;D

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

I think Amatuer ranks is a place to gain experince. just cause some one is fast that doesnt mean that they have the experince needed to become an expert. If some one win's half of there races and crashes the other half, I see some one who needs more experince.

     I believe this is a great example of what the Amateur class is intended for: learning, experience, and improvement.

just cause some one is fast that doesnt mean that they have the experince needed to become an expert. If some one win's half of there races and crashes the other half, I see some one who needs more experince.

     I have seen way too many racers who were fast right out of the box as an Amateur, but never really learned the basics. Too often they win races by just being guttsier than the other Amateurs, but often times 1/2 or 3/4 of the way thru the season their domination seems to fade when other Amateurs start getting faster after having learned the basics. The guttsy racer will often times start crashing as the season goes on, sometimes quite often, but will still usually be up at the front. These racers often times will go Expert and be fast at the start of the season, but will soon find that alot of the Experts are fast, and they start crashing again trying to keep up. I truly feel that if they stayed Amateur for another season, without seeking instruction, they really wouldn't improve much at all.

And some people want racers moved up cause they dont want the competition.

     If someone wants another Amateur racer bumped to Expert status strickly because they are faster than them, then that's not correct, but I don't believe that is the case in the majority of cases where someone is bumped.

If some one wants to stay back let them. Its their choice!!!! If you want to call them a sandbagger, all that means is that your saying that they are faster than you.

     This doesn't really make sense since often times it's the Experts who are saying that someone is sandbagging by staying Amateur. Actually it would seem more like the sandbagger is looking to take advantage of the system for their own personal benefit and not use the Amateur class as a stepping stone as it's intended.

     I believe that having a championship available to Amateurs isn't all bad, but I am strongly against the over abundance of contingency available at the Amateur level. This is a major reason why people are against the sandbagging, because of the reaping of a large portion of the payouts in Amateur by a select few. If the payouts were either greatly reduced in Amatuer or paid further down the results to reduce the payouts to the leaders then I wouldn't have so much of a problem with intentional sandbagging. But the sad situation of having an overkill contingency program in Amateur has led to continued abuse of the program.

[Bernie]

My sponsors could care less where I finish, so long as people keep coming through the door buying things I recommend...

Badda Bing!  

[Super Dave]

I am aware that there are people who think that by getting other riders to advance, they better the odds that they might place higher in their races. NOT GONNA HAPPEN! They'll be replced by new fast riders. Best fix: Get yourself faster!  ;D

Johnny, now there's a true statement.

I'm always amused by the guys that make their next season championship statements based on so-and-so moving up next season, so I have a good chance...then I burst their bubble and go and send someone else to go get that championship.  Not sure why people focus on other people when riding in their championships when the only thing they can do is focus on their program.

[smoke]

I have been an AM for the last two seasons 03 & 04 WHY:
1. I have raced 3 to 4 races per year and did not have the points to be and ex.

2. I travel for work way to much to run a full season.

3. I still have way to much to learn.

The point is the Am is for learning and thats what I'm doing at my pace. I could care less who is faster than me or lower than me.  I run for the true fun and learning aspect.  I did not  win any wood and if I don't ever I will have learned alot about myself and people in general.

Yes one day I would like to win but if I don't oh well.

Am I a fast Am? No  Was I faster in 04 than in 03?  Oh hell yeah. Will I be faster in 05 ? You bet your A@@@. But will I be the fastest AM?  NO!!!!!!

Stop crying about what someone else is doing and run your own race program.

[rotoboge]

Stop crying about what someone else is doing and run your own race program.

Sounds like you are the only one crying...

[Baltobuell]

Smoke, you're OK in my book. I'm the eternal amature. I have no dreams of glory and use this for fun. My trouble is I go slower each year. When I'm good and ready I'll quit... or hit lotto and go every weekend and become expert. ;D

[H0RT0NF4i]

My sponsors don't advertise my wins/champs but would rather see me on the podium as a Am and winning Championships than a 10th or back as a new expert.  Ohwell....I look forward to running with the whities next season but it will take some time to get back on top of the poduim as an Ex.

yeah donald you're right.  it's gonna take US some time to get back up on the podium!!!  i guess i'll be sporting me a set of those dreaded white plates also!!

[TiffineyIngram]

Here we go again...

Alright, I thought we did the right thing this year when we changed the points bump to 750 from 500.  I didn't hear anybody saying, "cool, they listened to what we asked for".  I'm kind of surprised by that.  First off, the whole bumping and petitions thing sits firmly in my lap.  For anyone to say I slack off is completely out of touch.  Ask Eric, he thinks I'm way strict, and I'm married to the guy.  The philosophy is simple: the longer you stay amateur the longer you're going to think you need to.  There will always be new faster guys.  When you go expert, you learn from people far more than you would as an amateur.  Think about it: in the amateur class you'll be following other amateurs.  Personally, I would much rather be behind a pack of experts than in front of amateurs that way I could watch someone else's techniques.  Just my opinion, though.

Bumping up in the middle of the year is not fair to new riders.  I can't help if a guy starts riding in January and gets enough track time to learn lines and can beat everyone else.  He worked hard, he earned it.  It isn't fair for me to say "Oh, you're too fast for everyone else, bu bye."  That isn't right.  You have to understand that people do this for fun, it doesn't have to be a military action.  Give a guy the season he deserves, don't take it away because you don't want the competition.

I've never seen this person post before, but today I have seen two, and between the corner worker thread and this one, I would say those comments are very self-serving and not intended for the "good of the sport".  It's the holidays, guys, let's think of others.

[hi-side_racing]

Alright, I thought we did the right thing this year when we changed the points bump to 750 from 500.  I didn't hear anybody saying, "cool, they listened to what we asked for".  

For anyone to say I slack off is completely out of touch.  

"cool, they listened to what we asked for"...  ;D now you heard it.

Now quit slacking off...

[smoke]

Sounds like you are the only one crying...

Yeha thats it , I'm the one who started this gay ass thread too  ;)

[smoke]

TIFF

I'm so glad that you are back!  I can't wait so see the baby.

[speedster_1]

What do we do about the slow experts?   ;D  Bump them back to AM?   ;D ;D

[Clay]

Hehe...there are some that definitely need it!  LOL

I think the 750 bump is fine.  Anyone who doesn't want to go expert after that can be judged on a personal basis to decide if they need to be bumped or not.  It's simply way too much work to judge each person as to whether they should be bumped or not.

As for me, I'm REALLY looking forward to being bumped up to expert.  I know I can run top 10 now, but I look forward to learning how to run top 5.  I know that'll never happen as an amateur!  ;D

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

What do we do about the slow experts?   ;D  Bump them back to AM?   ;D ;D

     Being that I chose to be a 'slow Expert' for the last couple seasons, I think I am justified in responding to this. What seems to be missed by so many people, especially Amateurs, is that being Expert isn't exclusively about how fast you are. Being Expert is more about knowledge and doing it right. I started racing in '96, I crashed twice as an Amateur, once in '96, once in '97 - both times taken out by another racer (consistent top 5 finishes). As an Expert I crashed once (in my 1st year) back in '98 while passing for 3rd in an Unlimited Superbike race during a combined NASB/CCS event. Since then I never crashed again (6years) until this season when I was forced off the track by another racer. I realize that 'That's Racing' applies to my crashing experiences, but it's obvious that experience has definately played a key role in my lack of crashing.

     Since I have played both roles on the track (fast guy and slow guy by choice) I understand its different requirements. I actually believe that it's more dangerous to be the slow Expert in the ever so common combined races with the Amateurs. The lead Amateurs are usually a little smoother and know how to pass ok for the most part, but some of the racers behind them seem to not have a clue. I have had more idiotic moves done by those racers than any other as they would pass me. Knowing how to handle those situations and not panic is part of being Expert. Those lead Amateurs that passed by me seamlessly 'get it', they are obviously ready for the bump to Expert next season. For them to stay back another season would be obvious sandbagging. For a number of the racers behind them, they obviously need more experience, which is what Amateur status is for.

[rotoboge]

As for me, I'm REALLY looking forward to being bumped up to expert.

I agree with you wholeheartedly! I started mid-season as an amatuer and learned a ton as the season progressed. I welcome the challenge of the expert class and what they can continue to teach me.

There are some others I know that will do anythng to stay back another year, only to pretend they are ROSSI or something of the sort. They never really "get it"...

[Roger@ASMA]

Great thread. Seeing all the opinions is great at a time when I'm working on who I'll be bumping to expert for next year. We bump the top 3 overall amateur points earners plus the top 3 of each amateur class at the end of each year. Also, we look at individual riders who are obviously at the expert level, we bumped one amateur at the end of last year who only raced half a year because he was one of the top 5 fastest racers in the club after only 4 events. Bumping someone midseason is wrong, everyone deserves a chance at their amateur championships.

It should be the responsibility of the local region to determine if a racer is not ready to bump up, as only the local representitives have watched the riders all year. One of the only problems with the current system is that a rider can ride a few events for a few years as an amateur, dominate them and come back the next year as an amateur again the next year, and again the next year to go after the amateur stuff at Daytona...it's happened.

[H0RT0NF4i]

What do we do about the slow experts?   ;D  Bump them back to AM?   ;D ;D

hahahaha yeah donald i might consider letting you go back to AM.....just let me know buddyhahaha ;D