Kevin Elliott...since you're observing...

[Super Dave]

How about making Thunderbike and a Middleweight class a purse class? Don't add another class, make the class a purse event.

There was lots of money at the last BFR event, and we had 900 plus entries.

[Super Dave]

Thunderbike...I'm taking the H1 frame to my powder coat contact in the next few moments.

[CCS]

The H1 will be finished when pigs fly.......you've been threating us with that for four years now... ;D

Adding purse classes is tough right now, unless we can get some outside sponsors to step up, we are doing everything we can right now to not lose money. It has been a crazy season, some races up in entries, others way down for no apparent reason. We will have to play close to the vest for at least one more season to be sure the economy is rebounding and average entries rise above the break even point.

[Absolute]

what would be the cutoff date for an f3 or f3 this year....will a 1993 qualify???

Roy @ absolute

[CCS]

F2's will be in at the CCS level, rules committee asked about eliminating the fours at the FUSA level, Im not sure what their final recomendation will be.

[motomadness]

Can we also do some non-FUSA team challenge races?  That may generate a little money.  Maybe encourage the track promoters to hold them on Fridays for two day events and on Saturdays for one day events.

[George_Linhart]

I don't see how an F2 is at much of an advantage vs. the built buells that the FUSA guys take out there.  I am working to rebuild my F2 after several years of sitting neglected in my garage - I think it will be nicely competive in Thunderbike (and a lot less maintenance than a Harley).

Now, an F3 might be a different story - they had quite a bit of a power o the F2's.

[Woofentino Pugrossi]

what would be the cutoff date for an f3 or f3 this year....will a 1993 qualify???

Roy @ absolute

Kevin emailed me that it was OK when I asked him about that when they renamed heavyweight sportsman to thunderbike. I use a 93 F2 in t-bike. Seen a couple 95-97 F3's running in it. Would be nice to have a class for bikes older than 8 yrs old and not have to deal with the new high tech bikes running against older bikes. I remember seeing an 87 VFR700 racing in hw sportsman the year before they changed it to thunderbike. Some people just cant afford to get a brand new bike every year or two for racing.

[eh427]

I don't think they should eliminate the fours in Thunderbike. There were a couple guys on Buells at Daytona that passed me like I was standing still on my F2.

[Super Dave]

I
Now, an F3 might be a different story - they had quite a bit of a power o the F2's.

I will give my point of reference.

My Supersport F2 had 93HP in 1993.  Fastest lap times for 600's at Blackhawk Farms Raceway on 600's were in the high 14's to low 15's.

In 2001, my Supersport GSXR600 had 105HP and the fastest 600 lap times at Blackhawk for 600's, the track was virtually unchanged, were mid 13's to low 14's.

The F3 made a few more HP over the F2, and the F4 and F4i made a few more than the F3, etc.

Buells?  Well, there are some National caliber riders on some of them.  Even if they made less HP than your F2, they might be driving out of corners harder than you and, thus, blowing by.

Why should the F3's be allowed in?  Do we have a ten year window?  That would take us back to 1994 when the F2 still existed.

[Eric Kelcher]

Note Kevin mentioned in FUSA Thunderbike 4s are being considered to be eliminated. At that level with a Superbike platform the way the power is put to the ground and the type of bike desired at a Pro event is probably more the issue can a rider like Mike Barnes make a class legal bike and dominate? AH yes proved at Daytona fall 2003 and his met or was close to meeting the 2004 rules. FUSA races should be current bikes (no jokes about Harley tech they are some of the most computer savy bikes I have seen in the paddock) so a phase out of the older bikes I think should happen regardless of being competitive. Plus a F2 does not thunder a Buell, Ducati or SV THUNDERS

[George_Linhart]

Eric,

No offence, but we already have a super twins class, we don't need another.  One of the neat things about Thunderbike is that a variety of bikes are legal - it gives us a chance to ride our older bikes rather than feeding the manufacture pocketbook by buying the newest models.

There are enough classes that pander to the manufacturers and will get guys with the money buying new bikes every year.  Most of us can't afford it (some are even smart enough to know its us, not the bike).  How about a few more classes like Thunderbike that get an interesting mix if different bikes on the grid and can keep older models competitive?  Perhaps we could performance weight some of the classes (maybe F2s in with lightweight supersport or maybe lightweight superbike)?

I guess I could always go race with that other organization since they do have some classes for the older bikes.

BTW - If you want to hear my Honda make as much noise as a buell, I can run open headers.

George

[eh427]

I second that opinion. I really enjoy the thunder bike class because of the diversity in bikes and I think the rules for that class keep things pretty competative. I also would like to see the F2 legal to run in some lightweight classes.

[Super Dave]

Did anyone read my post?

My F2 in Supersport trim made 93HP at the rear wheel.  That was in 1993.  And you want that to run in LWSS?  Hey, let's give the bike a 20HP advantage.  

Offer me that opportunity, and I'd go stink up LWSS on an F2.  I'm sure other guys would too.  Is that fair?  It's ridiculous at best.  At least in Thunderbike, there are high HP Buells and SV's to potentially race against.  What else would be fair?  Thunderbike is one of the few Afirmitive Action racing classes there is.

[james-redsv]

I think the Ducati 748 should be allowed in the thunder bike class. They could set the rule to 800cc on twins with desmo valves too. There really is no class for it now and in thunder bike it would fit right in with the older inline fours, buells and built SVs as far as HP to weight ratio. CCS really needs to find a place for the 748 since there are so many used ones out there to make cheap racer for someone who wants to race a ducati. This will also help the sagging supertwins class since the 748 can race in it as well.

[Super Dave]

The 748 is a competent middleweight bike.

Thunderbikes....well, they are performance indexed Lightweight Superbikes, pretty much.  

The 748 can make good power with an 800 kit...yeah, run it in FUSA Superbike where it belongs.

If the availability of them is so incredible, then they should already be in Supertwins, right?  

[Scotty Ryan]

I agree with Dave on making middle weight a purse paying class.I know that CCS has to make maney as well but I still think that the racers need a little incentive.

[Woofentino Pugrossi]

My F2 in Supersport trim made 93HP at the rear wheel.  That was in 1993.  And you want that to run in LWSS?  Hey, let's give the bike a 20HP advantage.  

How about just allowing me to run a F2 in LWSS? Most of those guys will lap me anyways. ;D ;D ;D

[Super Dave]

How about just allowing me to run a F2 in LWSS? Most of those guys will lap me anyways. ;D ;D ;D

Afirmitive action in racing?

[George_Linhart]

Peace Super Dave!

I did read your post and I think I said maybe LWSS OR maybe LWSB.

Remember, your bike put out this kind of power in 1993 - I am not sure if anyone would put the time and money into an F2 today to get it back up to 90+ HP to race in a non-purse paying class.  I might be wrong at this guess, but, I would think a bunch of guys like me have retired bikes and would put a couple of hundred bucks into it to get it back on the track just for fun IF there is more than a single race where it would be competitive.  I can not see the logic of the time and expense of having the engine completely re-built and hot rodded when there is no contingencies to be won and the classes don't pay a purse.

One last point on the issue, for what its worth I have seen "claims" of SS legal SV650's at about 80 to 85 bhp (although this may be the typical selling exageration).  I will get my F2 on a dyno next weekend and see where it is, but I hope for something like 85 bhp (and would be thrilled for anything beyond).

I would be happy to have pre-1993 water cooled 600 I-4s performance indexed it into LWSB and GT Lights and I will gladly offer to race the guys running SVs that are down to 320 lbs and putting out in excess of 95 HP.  Basically, I guess I am suggesting that we should have more "afirmative action" in the classes so older bikes can remain competitive rather than running at a huge disadvantage in terms of power and weight to the latest and greatest from the manufacturers.  I certainly don't like the suggestion that Thunderbike should only be legal for "modern" twin cylinder bikes as we would just have another supertwins class.

I guess there is also a question of CCS vs. FUSA.  I note Eric's point is very specific with regard to FUSA rather than CCS and the desire for uniformity at the "Pro" level.  I still disagree with that as I don't think that uniformity is good, particularly at the national leve.  I think we should encourage rules that allow a variety of platforms and many different kinds of bikes.  If you want uniformity, become an all spec. series (and re-name it Formula Buell).

George

[PJ721]

Hey EH427...I have enough problems keeping up with the LIGHTWEIGHT bikes  :-[  and now you want to let the F2's come down to LWSS or LWSB? Heck...why dont we just let all the "older" middlewights come down...   :o

[Protein Filled]

I know of a few F2's that run the Midwest region that are putting out around 105 hp's. They pull me down the straight like a newer 600! You can put in 2004 F2 forks and get cartridge forks and a good rear shock and have a good handling bike with tons of power.

I do think that making Thunderbike a purse paying class would be nice. The only class that pays for LW riders is GT Lights and there is no way you can be competitive in GTU, GTO or Unlimited GP on a LW bike, regardless of the track. I also think it would atract more entries. Look at Blackhawk when Voice Eclipse put in money for the Thunderbike race. There were quite a few more people entered those two weekends!

[PJ721]

and just to add...look what's already happened to the LW classes....no more or very few...EX500s, FZR400, Hawks...ect...just because the SV came along....the guys running the Older LW bikes...had 3 choices...run what you got, put some cash into what you got to make it able to run with the SV's or join the club and just buy an SV...and all of us that do have SV's aren't putting down 85 HP....so by letting the older MW down in LW...I say all older MW because you just cant let one bike (F2) you'd have to let them all in ...you'll basically force out all the older LWs that are left...might as well just get rid of the LW class and run my SV up in MW? then what about all the 125s and 250s? how are they going to feel? Basically what it comes down to...is all bikes at some point will have to be "retired" or have some money put in them to make them able to run with the new bikes....just my thoughts.....

[salex43]

Did anyone read my post?

My F2 in Supersport trim made 93HP at the rear wheel.  That was in 1993.  And you want that to run in LWSS?  Hey, let's give the bike a 20HP advantage.  

Offer me that opportunity, and I'd go stink up LWSS on an F2.  I'm sure other guys would too.  Is that fair?  It's ridiculous at best.  At least in Thunderbike, there are high HP Buells and SV's to potentially race against.  What else would be fair?  Thunderbike is one of the few Afirmitive Action racing classes there is.

Why not, Ed keys SS bike put out about that much horse power.   ::)

[james-redsv]

The 748 is a competent middleweight bike.

Thunderbikes....well, they are performance indexed Lightweight Superbikes, pretty much.  

The 748 can make good power with an 800 kit...yeah, run it in FUSA Superbike where it belongs.

If the availability of them is so incredible, then they should already be in Supertwins, right?  

A 748/800 ducati gets killed in the middleweight class, thats why nobody rides one in that class. There very few in supertwins because that class is unlimited displacement. The 748 with an 800 kit is compairable with everthing else that is allowed in thunderbike. What about a SV at 800cc? Puts out about the same HP as a 800 ducati and its lighter to boot. Then again since when is a 800cc water cooled SV twin considered a LWT motor? You cant run it in LWT superbike or SS?? :P

[Baltobuell]

 You can't run a FUSA Buell in SS either. I think most of the grey comes in when FUSA bikes are running with CCS "just for fun" guys. Of course in a money class there will be a bottomless pit of cash to work with for some guys. That leaves out a guy with an old F2 or old Duc guy. I run an old tube frame Buell, so since the XB's are the bike I drool on, should I get to run ULW, Heck NO. CCS "just for fun guys" should do just that, run for the fun of it. If you want to be with the leaders at a National event, you'll have to spend some money. Go carts, Dirtbikes, Cars, whatever, in the top ranks, money matters. If I was fast when the bike was new somebody would have given me the newer model so I run what I got. I think the rules committee has done an excellent job in the past and have no reason to doubt them now.
PS: The old Buell Lightning series was as cheap as racing gets. 95hp limit was easily attainable so it came down to rider. That was a good series.