Which bike should a novice racer get?

[Burt Munro]

Might be worth talking to Lee about this bike...

http://www.racemotorcycles.com/cgi-bin/board/YaBB.pl?board=ccsclass;action=display;num=1097955341

He has lots of spares to go with the bike too.

My understanding is that Lee bought it from Mark Junge so it is very well set up.....


Rick

[Nbot]

Sorry wannabe, but that's a different bike...minus two points for the error, but plus three for the effort, so..........

[Super Dave]

Lee's bike is sold to one of my former students, I believe.

Nbot, a picture is worthless.

Paint, stickers, and a list of parts is only paint, stickers, and a list of parts.

I think I stated this once before, and I'll state it again...

A bike is NOT a sum of it's parts.  Put those same parts on one bike, then put them on another.  Would they work the same way?  No.  Give the bike to a tuner or a rider that has knowledge of set up and all, the bike will work better for the rider.  The rider IS important as the one that is usually the most responsible for stating problems with the bike then making changes to shock length, spring rate, etc.  As a new racer, that is very important.  I work with new racers....meaning not your average rider's school guy, but guys that have been to rider's school, but not recognize that their "education" lacked something.  You don't just "toss it in" or "brake later"...there is an amount of feel that you should get.  And you can get lucky with a bike that has good feel, or you will have to make changes to the bike to make it right.  You can learn how to do that yourself through years and years of racing, if you can afford it, you can work with someone that might know something, which there are few of, or you can get the bike set up by a GMD Computrack store...  again, I use http://4and6.com  ...and I know how to make changes.

So, that bike you're looking at has "all the parts".  Does the guy have notes on changes he made track to track?  I try to have gearing notes and some kind of information about rear shock ride heights that I ran at different tracks.  

What springs does it have?  How much does he weigh?  High compression pistions?  Ok, does he have jetting notes for different tracks?  If not, you're gonna have to figure out what jets to run as the high compression pistions are going to make it a little more finikey...do you have the knowledge to know how to change the jetting based on altitude, temperature, and/or humidity?  

Nothing against the bike....but...

Pictures don't mean much.

[cbusa]

Related to this topic..

Why do used race SV650's seem to cost as much if not more than the used race 600's

Charlie

[Protein Filled]

Related to this topic..

Why do used race SV650's seem to cost as much if not more than the used race 600's

Charlie

Hmm, I would say supply and demand. Not that much demand for older 600's since they are not as competitive against a 2005 R6/GSXR, but a 99 SV 650 can still be a competitive bike even though it's 6 years old.

[Nbot]

Allright, allright Dave...I'm a getting your point that there's a lot to go into a bike besides the parts....suspension setup/jetting/and more....I'm trying not to get in over my head here and keep it KISS....he weighs 150 but said he's got the front set up pretty stiff b/c that's how he likes it, so me at 165/170lbs "might" be just right. I live in durango, CO, so not many shops around here to help out, but there is a reputable dyno-tuner in Albuquerque NM which is where the bike is (PJ's Triumph). I also understand that a dyno run is much easier in the long run for getting jets spot on...I have some basic knowledge of jetting from working on my own DR350 (getting it jetted for 10,000'+ mountain passes) and my FZR1000 whose carbs I've also leaned out....but I'm no expert by far!! I've never rebuilt my own forks before, so I would probably have to pay up for that....But again, I'm not necessarily rich so I don't have thousands to just go and be throwing around to shops to just fix everything right up, that's why I was looking to get more of a forgiving bike in the first place, get the suspension dialed in "reasonably so" to my weight, and the jetting and just have some fun.......I did however read completely thru your site and 4&6 and realize that a bunch more dough would be handy, although if I was anywhere near your state I think getting some other riders to spend some time with you is fairly affordable. Anyways, I do appreciate your advice, and I suppose that what I should take from it is that "sure it looks like a decent bike, but don't expect to just hop on and have it behave perfectly--spend some time and money on tuning it". Correct?

[motomadness]

I would suggest that you purchase a newer 600.  You get most of what you need adjustment wise, without having to spend dough send parts places to make it work.  Since you ride a large displacement bike anyway, you'll probably do well on it straight-away.

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

I dearly love my friend and Mentor Super Dave, but I feel that a translation of his previous post is in order.

There is no such thing as an out-of-the-box, turn-key race bike.  YOU will be required to maintain it, and dial it in.  It must be sprung and valved for your weight and level of agression, then properly tweeked with the adjusters and ride heights.  This will take much fiddling, and the suspension may have to go back to your builder a few times before it suits you.
Don't dispair.  Buy what you want.  That SV looks like a decent bike for you.  I know you'll have fun on it.  I also know that it won't be as useless as yesterday's newspaper in one model year like every 600cc bike ever built.  The suspension stuff is something that every racer has to learn about and pay for, regardless of what he chooses to ride.  You'll need to choose a suspension guy who attends your local races and provides trackside support.  He and the tire guy can help you tremendously.  So can a coach like Super Dave.  Don't overthink this.  Just get what you want, and go have some fun!

[stephenr928]

I have 2 cents!  Can I play?
(As a relatively new racer with 2 whole years under my belt......)

For several years I'd been doing track days, and I knew I wanted to race.  My street bike was an R1.  It was fast.  I was a good street rider.  I thought, "Hmmmm, maybe I could just switch it into a race bike."  ("It'll be great!")
I got some excellent advice from someone in the industry who, after I mentioned my burgeoning plan, must've been struggling not to laugh in my face.....
He told me to start in the Sportsman Class.
Thankfully, I don't have much of an ego, so I was off to the classified ads.
I have 2 points:
-I bought a used Honda cbr 600 F2 to compete in Thunderbike.  It has been a good bike, but on hindsight an SV650 would've allowed for more opportunities to race in other classes (competitively).
Racing in the sportsman class has been an excellent experience.  It was nice, at first, to be on the track with smaller grids.  Later, I began to wish for more competition, but learning the basics has remained an attainable goal.
-I always knew racing would be pricey....But I had no idea!   That being said, my initial budget for the race bike included having it totally done at a GMD center.  It was still painfully expensive.  But, there has been no better single source of confidence in my short racing career knowing my bike was straight, plus the geometry & suspension were set up.  (Although fresh tires have always made me feel warm & fuzzy.)
I had excellent baseline settings from which to start, plus I had someone to call for advice on changes as the season wore on.

In conclusion, K3 is right.....At the end of the day, just go race.  There will be lots of time to experience heartache & frustration at the track, so try to enjoy the experience of buying your first race bike....And go race!

Cheers,

[Super Dave]

I suppose that what I should take from it is that "sure it looks like a decent bike, but don't expect to just hop on and have it behave perfectly--spend some time and money on tuning it". Correct?

You're close.

You need a bike that you can turn the key and push the button.  That is really important.  A decent SV or a 600 in a reasonable production form should be able to do that.  A ratty one might not.

If you have to worry about jetting, well, you're not worring about how to make the bike give you feel.  If you don't have any feel, you'll go slower or crash trying to go faster.  It's all about set up.

I'm not sure how many times I've posted the top speed times from MotoGP where Rossi is not the fastest, but he has the fastest lap times.

Mladin hasn't had the fastest top speed either, but often he's on the pole.

That's because they focus on making the bike give the rider the best feel and feed back to exploit the traction that is available through the corner...going in, the middle, and getting out.

Dyno tuning is great, but it can be related to the person using the dyno and the dyno itself.  What happens in a dyno room is a ball park...might not be what you'd really need at Second Creek or someplace.  And if you're busy trying to get around a motor "rideability problem"...you're probably not going to have the time to figure out how to keep the rear end hooked up coming out of the "Rat's Nest".  Which is going to allow you to have faster lap times?  Suspension issues, by far.

So, if I'm going to make a recommendation, find a bike that has a motor in decent production form.  If it's had a valve job or something, great.  Probably flows a bit more air at low lifts...that will help the bike accelerate, and that's what you NEED.  Turn key, push button, ride, change oil, add gas.  

With that, suspension.  There are good shocks and bad shocks.  Some need more care and feeding.  Some don't work for very long before needing a rebuild.  

4&6 might have a cost related to it, but how long would it take you to get the bike to that point?  Would you ever get it to the point that they can get it to?

Proper handling is related to overall motorcycle geometry, first.  Spring rates are going to be second, but they are related to the overall geometry while in motion.  Dampening is probably third, but it is related to motorcycle geometry under loads.  

Guy's got a heavy spring?  Probably a geometry issue that he doesn't understand.  Everyone is different, and that's fine.  Could it be better?  Well, people make decisions, often times, to leave it alone " 'cause I know how it works..."  Might be able to make it better, but they never change.  And that's why most racers last about two or three years.

That make it a bit more concise?

It's all about the suspension set up...

[Nbot]

Hey Super Dave, thanks, I'm a getting it...not enough attention gets put into the suspension by newbies, thus hindering their riding development.

Aren't Penske's a quality shock? I would think so given their price (not that that is always an indicator but usually...)

And the springs: I'll take the time to get them dialed in right to my weight and then try to talk to some "experts" about the feeling that I should be getting from them and keep tuning, and keep tuning.....I believe that this is your biggest point about racing, keeping the bike stable and smooth around the track.

As far as the bore on the bike, I talked to the shop that did it and they said that since the stock carbs are on there (and not FCR's/flatsides) that jetting to the 700 will not be a huge or complicatedly precise deal. They said maybe if it had been bored to a displacement of 800-900 or if it had flatsides then sure jetting would be a more time consuming and precise ordeal, but not to worry about the 700, not that much difference than stock.....Plus I'll either be racing in/around Albuquerque next year (3 tracks w/ pretty similar elev) or along the front range if I move for jobs (in which case I'll lean it out some...but I'm not really going to be going from Second Creek to sears point to laguna seca to etc....so I think I should be allright.

No the bike is probably not at the point that 4&6 could get it to, but I think that it will be a good start for me for all the reasons mentioned in this thread. If I'm fortunate enough to have as exciting a history in racing as yours, then hopefully I will eventually learn the nuances in suspension/geometry that you're advocating, but for now I think that this is a good start and I'll keep your suggestion on tuning the suspension a priority as my racing career grows. I suppose that finding a shop to help out with that should be a priority as well......

Thanks again to everone's .02cents--I think that now I'm heading in a fairly reasonable direction ;D ;D ;D

[Super Dave]

Hey Super Dave, thanks, I'm a getting it...not enough attention gets put into the suspension by newbies, thus hindering their riding development.

Aren't Penske's a quality shock? I would think so given their price (not that that is always an indicator but usually...)

And the springs: I'll take the time to get them dialed in right to my weight and then try to talk to some "experts" about the feeling that I should be getting from them and keep tuning, and keep tuning.....I believe that this is your biggest point about racing, keeping the bike stable and smooth around the track.

You're getting closer, but not there yet.

Penske, yeah, good.  I use Hyperpro stuff.  That's another story.

But if you "put on a shock", it doesn't make it just work.  If the shock is not the right length, then how the bike dynamically works, it makes something called anti-squat, won't work correctly.  

The length of the rear shock affects the front.  Yeah, the steering head angle, but more importantly, trail.  You might not know what that is.

Most "experts" don't know.  Lots of faster guys don't know.  

Lots of people don't know why things are they way they are.

Anyway...stable has nothing to do with it.  I can make anything stable.  What I want is a feeling of feed back.  I don't want the bike to feel vague as though I'm riding a very expensive unicycle with no real feel of what the front tire is doing.  I don't want the front to feel like it's "quick"...a feeling that thing will happen too quick for me to react.  There are issues that I understand that relate to all of this in the chassis.  

Most people never figure these ideas out.  I work with people to try to get that feeling of understanding and try to set up a process in their mind for relating what they feel to what the bike is telling them...it's relevant.  When I started racing...a long time ago now...my bike had a really vague feel to the front.   I though that was how it was supposed to feel.  I'm not a magician, so I fell down a few times.  Eventually, I went faster, but it wasn't easy.  As I started to understand everything, I could manipulate things on the bike, and on other bikes to make it work for me...to give me the feeling of feed back from the bike that allows me to go into a corner faster, more confident, and even with a greater margin of safety than some other people...and while not really requiring a huge amount of effort or terror on my part.

If you're trying to figure out jets...you can't think about a corner, how the front feels, and why you're getting passed.

Most people in club racing don't know much about this stuff.  It's very dynamic.  

I'm sure there might be a good GMD Computrack place out your way.  Or I'd hook up with someone like Dan Turner in the MRA.  You heard of him?