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motomadness

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2005 R6
« on: September 14, 2004, 07:44:43 am »
3hp
inverted forks
radial brakes and master cylinder
etc.
http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2004/Sep/040914y.htm

« Last Edit: September 14, 2004, 07:45:05 am by motomadness »

TZDeSioux

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Re: 2005 R6
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2004, 07:47:37 am »
Oh that's very nice. Sean.. when are you picking yours up?

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Re: 2005 R6
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2004, 08:50:31 am »
Nice, but I'll stick with my '03.  If Purk can still give the leaders a run for their money on a '99... then I see no reason to upgrade yet.
Jim "Porcelain" Ptak

Sunny

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Re: 2005 R6
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2004, 08:52:55 am »
No undertail exhaust like those on CBR600RR and 6R?   ???  Must say I am disappointed.........   :-/


motomadness

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Re: 2005 R6
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2004, 09:10:18 am »
I would like to get one tomorrow, but that won't happen.  Definitely trick.

Jim, you mentioned Purk's bike.  He's is definitely fast, but what's in that motor?  I'm not saying he is cheating or anything even remotely like that, but that aint no stock engine pushing him around.  For us lesser being, we might get a chance to race with him on this bike.

davegsxrold929r

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Re: 2005 R6
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2004, 09:25:20 am »
i too was hoping for the R1 undertail exhaust., but oh well ., still some nice changes.... ;D

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Re: 2005 R6
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2004, 10:17:37 am »
This isn't a complete redesign.  

Most of the upgrades are what I thought...forks, brakes, but I thought maybe there would be a possible complete redesign.  This looks like a bolt on change.  Easy.  Looks like it shouldn't need new bodywork from the 03/04.

The 04 has some changes ECM compared to the 03, I know.  I'm sure it improves it, but not substantially.  

Purk's bike is a 2001, I believe.  Not that it's different from the '99.  And not that lap times have been pushed down that much anyway.
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Shady

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Re: 2005 R6
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2004, 10:21:43 am »
I dont see the new improvements keeping pace with the new 2005 ZX-6R and ZX-6RR.  I love my R6, but I might be leaning green next year.


Sunny

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Re: 2005 R6
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2004, 10:41:09 am »
In my opinions, Yamaha failed themselves in making and getting the best out of their 2005 R6.  It's almost plain stupid with the money they are paying Rossi and the success they are having right now to turn up a new R6 like this!  They should give the new R6 an undertail exhaust to stay on the fashion trend, and give the bike a MotoGP look which will make it a stand-out winner on street (squids is the majority portion of the bike buyers)!

ZX-6R and the CBR600RR will rule the street I believe as they are the only two 600's with undertail exhaust system for 2005. Although ZX-6R still looks somewhat ugly (the fairing/style design doesn't flow very well from the front to the rear if you know what I mean), I think it may have a better motor (no replacement for displacement), definitely more low-mid end torque for sure. The gixxer 600 looks handsome, but a little out-dated with the conventional exhaust on the right. The R6 to me, still looks ugly and no way close to how good the R1 looks. The CBR600 looks somewhat plain, but it's a Honda and it's got reliability.

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Re: 2005 R6
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2004, 10:42:23 am »
Folks, the 600 class is about marketing.

There is very little one-up-manship that happens anymore.  Each manufacturer make small steps in things to make "new" 600's different from previous models....trying to keep you buying the "latest and greatest".

Kaw had a slipper clutch and upside down forks and radial brakes.  Didn't see everyone getting them and I don't see anyone cleaning house with them either.  Suzuki's new 600 has upsidedown forks for this year with a radial brake master cylinder...Again, similar performance.  Might be a minor improvement...

So, the questions have to be this....

Are you fast enough now that you need a current model motorcycle for contingency?

If the guys that actually win the contingency only go fractionally faster on motorcycles that have a performance advantage in respect to HP, weight, and OEM suspension components (std forks vs USD forks)...do you think that you could exploit it for any more?

Do you have to have the newest bike for some kind of marketing plan?

If I do the Daytona 200 in March...looks like I'll do it on my '03 R6.  I don't see a whole lot of advantage in the new bike for lap times.  Yeah, the Yamaha team will have them, but see question three.  Jensen and Denning will have them.  See the first question.  
Super Dave

Shady

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Re: 2005 R6
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2004, 10:53:59 am »
While it's true that the 03-04 R6 is far from out-dated for all but the best riders, the fact that Kawasaki has come out with a Supersport-legal bike that incorporates almost all of the advantages of all of the other brands and has decided to port and polish the heads of their 05 ZX-6RR will have the other brands' riders starting off at a considerable disadvantage to those that have the Kawis.  I've heard that the RR will be putting down somewhere around 115-118 at the rear without a pipe stock!  :o  I'm suprised that Yamaha hasn't stepped up after a mediocre AMA Supersport year and made something that would elevate them back to the status of the 03 R6 amongst the other brands.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2004, 10:55:18 am by Shady »

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Re: 2005 R6
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2004, 11:01:07 am »
Quote
In my opinions, Yamaha failed themselves in making and getting the best out of their 2005 R6.  It's almost plain stupid with the money they are paying Rossi and the success they are having ....


Well, the development of the MotoGP bike takes up R&D.  And Rossi's salary.  So, if you don't need to redevelop, why?  I think Yamaha still sells every R6 they make, and that's got to be the goal of every manufacturer.

The cost of changes needs to be amoritized over the life of the bike.  Why break something that's pretty darn good.  Yamaha really has done a very fine job of continually refining an existing format rather than trying to  redevelop constantly.  

Ducati has used that method with some great success.  Good example...916, 996, 998.  The 999 is a departure.  Previously, 851, 888.  Three foundations with refinements.

Suzuki GSXR600's.  Hard to keep track...Lots of platforms.  Often complete departures from one to the other.  Meanwhile, the calipers, and brake pads, on the current R6 have been used on all R6's, the R1's previous to '04, I believe, and might even be the same ones used on the YZF's...

Doesn't really matter anyway.  It's done.  

As for undertail exhausts, Suzuki completely re did the GSXR1000 for 2005 after redoing it for 2003...and gave it a side mount exhaust again.  
Super Dave

Sunny

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Re: 2005 R6
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2004, 11:09:22 am »
Quote
Are you fast enough now that you need a current model motorcycle for contingency?



True, most of us don't.  However, the reason for factory to spend a lot of money in racing and hiring guys like Rossi is not to sell bike to you/racers, but street riders/squids (majority of their customer base)!  Racers are a very small proportion of customer base.  If factories relies on racers to buy their products, they'll all be out of business a long time ago.  Therefore, a MotoGP styling (doesn't have to involve redesign of the bike itself, but just the platics/fairing) and an undertail exhaust (demands from street riders although it may involve redesign of shock linkage, swingarm, etc.......) would be the correct marketing approach for product/business success.  More buyers would prefer styling advantages over a few HP.  Just my 2 cents.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2004, 11:14:38 am by Sunny »

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Re: 2005 R6
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2004, 11:21:01 am »
Quote
While it's true that the
insert a bike here
Quote
 is far from out-dated for all but the best riders, the fact that
insert another bike here [/quote] has come out with a Supersport-legal bike that incorporates almost all of the advantages of all of the other brands and has decided to [/quote] added value marketing concepts that have entered manufacturing
Quote
of their bikes will have the other brands' riders starting off at a considerable disadvantage.  I've heard that the bike will be putting down somewhere around a couple more HP than recent new bike HP figures
Quote
at the rear without a pipe stock!  :o  I'm suprised that they haven't stepped up after a mediocre AMA Supersport year and made something that would elevate them back to the status of the previous bike amongst the other brands.


Ok, I've inserted stuff...

Every year, same thing.  It's all marketing.

A full season in a competitive racing series can have ups and downs.  I think the 1, 4, 5, 6 (a privateer in 6th) finish at Daytona of the Yamaha riders in Supersport was pretty good.  Injuries and luck do play a big role.  Mick Doohan might have won the 500cc World Championship in 1992 had he not had his big crash.   Hacking is not riding the 600 anymore.  

If the newest, latest bike should win...then the Suzuki should be the clear leader.

It's not like the latest Yamaha compares to most recent Yamaha is a comparision between an RD350 and an FZR600.  LOL!  Nor was the FZR600 bad when compared to the CBR600F2 in 1992.
Super Dave

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Re: 2005 R6
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2004, 11:31:33 am »
Quote
 Therefore, a MotoGP styling (doesn't have to involve redesign of the bike itself, but just the platics/fairing) and an undertail exhaust (demands from street riders although it may involve redesign of shock linkage, swingarm, etc.......) would be the correct marketing approach for product/business success.  More buyers would prefer styling advantages over a few HP.  Just my 2 cents.


Well, what's the flag ship bike?  The R6 or the R1?

You don't get the look of a Road King in a Sportster.

Nor do you get a supercharged V8 in a Focus (stock), but  one can in a Mustang.

Cost has to play too, obviously.

In 1988, I bought the first GSXR600....

That was the hype that was flowing through the industry, 340 pounds, as much HP at the GSXR750, 17" wheels, etc. etc...

We got the 600 Katana to race.

Those bikes were $4000 retail.  Now top flight 600's are $8k plus.  I haven't seen them get cheaper.  

Any redesign in tooling is going to cost.  

Remarketing the bike with some changes can be very profitable.  Can free up money to have more riders on your factory road race team, build customer loyalty, and so on...that's profit.  

Again, see Ducati.
Super Dave

Sunny

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Re: 2005 R6
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2004, 11:47:36 am »
Quote

Again, see Ducati.




Ducati doesn't sell near as many bikes compared to any Japanese companies.  Therefore, not an apple-to-apple comparison.  Plus most who bought them, bought it for styling, not performance.  You don't see 748/749 running with the new 600's nor 998/999 running with the new 1000's, do you?  Well, if you had to talk about World Ducati Championship (where Ducati IS the only factory team), then yes..........


Flagship means nothing (besides I don't think any street squid should be riding the new 1000's anyway, because they don't have the skills to handle it and hence many died riding them every year; drove the insurance premium way up as a result).  Which displacemented bike do you think the factories sell the most units?  Profit are generated from high volume production (also means parts business), unless you can find plenty of buyers to pay for very high-priced/profitable products (Ducati isn't getting very rich for a reason).  Anyway, just my 2 cents.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2004, 11:49:36 am by Sunny »

Super Dave

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Re: 2005 R6
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2004, 12:08:30 pm »
I think Ducat sells one fifth the number of bikes that H-D sells.

The reality is that Ducati was virtually gone in the mid-eighties, but they survived, thrived, and were sold.  Not bad.  They will never have the volume as H, K, Y, or S, but Porsche isn't trying to outsell Ford either.

More squids still buy the farm on 600's.  That's why insurance for those bikes is so high.

Flagships do mean something.  

That's where the pride of companies are placed.  If they meant nothing, then there would be no 7-seried BMW's.  There wouldn't be the need for Ford's GT.  Why redesign the AMA Superbike winning GSXR1000 when it's probably going to win the championship again?

1000's are too fast?  How about 600's are too fast for most riders?  Even thoughs with "skills"...

We don't own the company.

And I doubt that Yamaha will be left with any '05 R6's on the floor even if Suzuki redesigns the GSXR600 for '05.
Super Dave

Sunny

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Re: 2005 R6
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2004, 12:45:12 pm »
Quote
Flagships do mean something.



Agree, but mostly just to make a statement about Technology, HP, Torque, Speed and/or Handling, not profit that the company stock is depending on.  


Quote
How about 600's are too fast for most riders?  Even thoughs with "skills"...



I agree, but just trying to say that all current 1000's are outrageously fast/dangerous.  I wish these Japanese motorcycle manufacturers start making high-performce 400 again as the current 600's are definitely not a beginner's bike, but an experienced rider's tool.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2004, 12:45:30 pm by Sunny »

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Re: 2005 R6
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2004, 12:54:16 pm »
Quote
I wish these Japanese motorcycle manufacturers start making high-performce 400 again


Agreed!!!  Wouldn't it be great if you could go buy a modernized 400cc 4cyl bike?  An updated FZR/CBR/RVF 400 would be an absolute blast to ride, and would provide some more variety in terms of choosing a competetive LW race machine.

With insurance rates going ever farther through the roof for 600's and 1000's, and new riders crashing their brains out, 400's would make a ton of sense.

Unfortunately, I suspect it would take someting like tiered/graduated licensing to convince the manufacturer's to bring these to market in the U.S.

I'd actually be in favor of tiered licensing, via displacement or HP limits, but I doubt there will be support for such legislation any time soon.

This is the type of thing I'd like to see the AMA look at.  Rather than fight for biker's rights to kill themselves by not having to wear helmets, lets fight to save some lives and encourage people to LEARN TO RIDE before they hop on some 100+ HP road missle.
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motomadness

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Re: 2005 R6
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2004, 01:15:15 pm »
No self-respecting street squid would be caught dead on a 400, because his buddies would always be leaving him behind, or the ladies would respect his "manhood".  Either way a lot beginners riding bikes aren't thinking about safety, especially not the bling-bling street riders.  Tez can tell plenty of stories about guys on the street trying to ride with him.  Heck at the latest Ducati dealer trackday, where the intro'd the 999R, may of the guys had never been on a track before, but once they saw Eric Bostrom, the true squidness came out.  Were they thinking about the safety, or how cool they would look?

I think lightweight racing has a place, but lightweight street riding is a tough sell, especially when most of the riding is probably on a boring, straight highway.

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Re: 2005 R6
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2004, 01:20:11 pm »
Quote

Agree, but mostly just to make a statement about Technology, HP, Torque, Speed and/or Handling, not profit that the company stock is depending on..


And that's why the R6 doesn't necessarily need a complete redesign.
Super Dave

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Re: 2005 R6
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2004, 01:22:15 pm »
Quote

Agreed!!!  Wouldn't it be great if you could go buy a modernized 400cc 4cyl bike?  An updated FZR/CBR/RVF 400 would be an absolute blast to ride, and would provide some more variety in terms of choosing a competetive LW race machine.


Isn't this where the SV is?

I mean, RVF400's were cool, but they weren't cheap.  Available, yes, but they were the flagships of the 400 category.
Super Dave

Sunny

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Re: 2005 R6
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2004, 01:33:08 pm »
Quote

I mean, RVF400's were cool, but they weren't cheap.  Available, yes, but they were the flagships of the 400 category.



You got that right.  I paid a lot for mine (could've got any 600's for less easily), and it was used (but titled and registered).  They are the flagships of the 400 category in term of design, styling and technology, but definitely not in weight, HP nor torque categories.  Being a V4 also means that it's complicated to work on and no one really knows how to tune and mod it to stay with other inline 4 400's in superbike form.

Sunny

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Re: 2005 R6
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2004, 01:34:30 pm »
Quote

Unfortunately, I suspect it would take someting like tiered/graduated licensing to convince the manufacturer's to bring these to market in the U.S.


Agree, and that's why the 400 market died at the first place as Japanese changed their licensing structure.

Sunny

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Re: 2005 R6
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2004, 01:36:23 pm »
Quote
I think lightweight racing has a place, but lightweight street riding is a tough sell, especially when most of the riding is probably on a boring, straight highway.



Agree, especially when the selling price of a 400 to a 600 is only about $1000 USD.  

Too bad for us racers that Aprilia is no longer planning on making that sweet LW machine called RSV450 we all wanted.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2004, 01:38:32 pm by Sunny »

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Re: 2005 R6
« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2004, 02:19:50 pm »
Quote
How about 600's are too fast for most riders?  Even thoughs with "skills"...


LOL - seeing as neither Dan nor myself can make it more than a few weekends without winding up on our heads, I think I'll agree with that statement.  Sometimes I wonder if I'm more suited for bicycle riding...  ;)
Jim "Porcelain" Ptak

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Re: 2005 R6
« Reply #26 on: September 14, 2004, 02:26:06 pm »
Quote

Purk's bike is a 2001, I believe.  Not that it's different from the '99.  And not that lap times have been pushed down that much anyway.


'99 R6, '01 R6.... to-MAY-to, to-MAH-to...

Quote
Jim, you mentioned Purk's bike.  He's is definitely fast, but what's in that motor?  I'm not saying he is cheating or anything even remotely like that, but that aint no stock engine pushing him around.  For us lesser being, we might get a chance to race with him on this bike.


True, his bike isn't stock... but neither is mine.  Or DanO's.  Or Rosno's.  Or most anybody else running at the front of the pack.  His SS motor isn't any more or less strong than those of us on newer R6s with SS motors.

And besides, even if his motor was box-stock - I bet his results wouldn't change at all.   Heck, weren't experts running 14s at BHF 10 years ago on F2s?  And a NON-legal F2 probably can't break 100hp - that's down ~15 from your average modern-day SS motor.  Horsepower isn't what separates Jeff from the rest of us.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2004, 02:29:06 pm by OmniGLH »
Jim "Porcelain" Ptak

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Re: 2005 R6
« Reply #27 on: September 14, 2004, 02:40:59 pm »
My F2 made 93.5HP in 1993 in Supersport trim and came across the scales at 410 or so at Brainerd that year.  I think my best time at Blackhawk in 1993 was a really low 16...maybe a 15.  Todd Harrington did some high 14's on his http://4and6.com F2 in similar trim that year.  The track was pretty much unchanged through 2002.  In July of 2001, I did a high 13 and Dave Ebben set the 600 lap record at like a 1:13.4 or .6.

My GSXR made 104HP and was like 380.

Fastest this year was a 1:11.473 on my R6 with 110HP?, but I haven't had it on a similar dyno, and it's like 378 or so.  And the 600 lap record is like a 1:10.5?  The track IS faster by an easy two seconds all day long.

My R6 is set up better and is much friendlier to ride.  If my GSXR were like my R6, it would have went faster.

But from the F2, Honda has made the F3, the F4, the F4i, and the RR.  If High 14's are the benchmark for 1993 and the bike has had a change in the basic platform at least three times...with all the marketing hype, you'd think that you'd get something more than a half second a lap for each one...

Don't forget about tires.  They are certainly better than the ones we were on eleven years ago, let alone five years ago.
Super Dave