put the 125's up front

[alfauno]

Last weekend at Blackhawk, there were experts gridded in a second wave behind amateurs. I have never seen this before, and the results were predictable. In race 14 on Sunday, the 125 GP bikes were put in a second wave behind the ULGP experts and amateurs. By the end of the first lap, the 125's had already caught some amateurs, and the rest of the race was spent working through the slower field. It ruined the race among the 125 riders, as they are about as fast on the straights as the bigger bikes but faster through all the corners. A last minute mechanical issue made me a DNS, but I watched the frustration of the 125 group as they were repeatedly balked by groups of slower bikes in the corners.
At the previous BHF event, the 125s were started ahead of the other classes. This worked out well. I am the slowest of the 125 riders who regularly show up to race, and I was caught by only a few bikes from behind. The other 125 riders took off and were free to race each other. The 125s were started at the back because of a perception that they are small, and so must be slow. C'mon-check the lap times and you'll see that it isn't so. 35-40hp in a 170lb package is as fast as 80hp in a 340lb package, but corners faster. Start the 125's at the front, and there may be a few talented, fast guys on the bigger bikes who may catch them, but that's more fair than making our entire class work it's way through a slower group gridded ahead.

[Super Dave]

I know race 14 was NOT ULGP.  Race seven was ULGP expert and eight was ULGP amateur.

I know that race twelve was MWSB.  You might have been with Thunderbike...a combined event.

Did you take up the issue with the Referee or the Race Director?

there may be a few talented, fast guys on the bigger bikes who may catch them, but that's more fair than making our entire class work it's way through a slower group gridded ahead.

There's the trick.  It goes both ways.  I know that an SV can do 15's at Blackhawk in Supersport trim.  I can't give you numbers on 125's currently.  Should be similar.

Rossi's Yamaha is slower in the straights.

[alfauno]

Dave,
You're right. I meant LWSB, it was Ultra Light Super Bike - AM & Ex, that we were combined with, as usual. That's okay, we don't have enough 125s for a race by ourselves, but the faster bikes should start first

A good SV with a good rider can probably do 15's at BHF, but that's the exception, and certainly not the rule. I can't imagine that many ULSB Amateurs are doing 15's, probably more like 25-30s. The 125s in our rider group are doing 1:20 (except for me, 28-29s).

I guess my question is how to enact a change. Should we talk to the Race Director to state our case before grids are drawn up and posted?

[amydiaz]

That would have been my fault.  I do the computer and gridding at Blackhawk and we had a discussion about it and we thought that would work out the best.  I am sorry that it did not.  

In the future I will grid the 125s first since that seems to work the best for you all.  Glad for the insight and once again I am sorry.

[alfauno]

Amy-Thanks, you're a doll! Drawing the grids is a pressure cooker job, and I'm sure you are always working hard to decide what's best within a severe time restraint. I'll talk to you at the next BHF!

[Thorny]

I did a 1:19 last year

[Super Dave]

A good SV with a good rider can probably do 15's at BHF, but that's the exception, and certainly not the rule. I can't imagine that many ULSB Amateurs are doing 15's, probably more like 25-30s. The 125s in our rider group are doing 1:20 (except for me, 28-29s).

I guess my question is how to enact a change. Should we talk to the Race Director to state our case before grids are drawn up and posted?

Were you racing against ULSB or LWSB?  

That's gonna change things.  LWSB is going to be faster than you as Thorny was able to win with his 19's on an older RS125 vs many guys that I work with on LWSB's doing below 20's.  It's always a trick.  ULSB...mish mash of stuff, so... I don't know times off the top of my head.

But if you look at the schedule and see something, ask Amy, Bill, someone.

[lbk]

Most SV's in the AM class this year, at lest the front 5-6 are running 1:22's at a slowest pace, and an average of 1:20's front SV guys in AM even supersport are pushing 18's. It's getting fast out there. The SV riders that are in that 25-30 range have to be outside of the top 10 I would imagine.

So yeah it gets difficult to try and work these things out. The GP bikes, aren't given very many classes anyway even the 250's seeing them have to run with middleweights is pretty crazy.

[smoke]

How ever you look at it someones not going to be happy.  I think they made the right call by putting the 125s in the back. Becasue I have seen a 125 rider get a slow bad start and an R1 run right into the back of him takem them both out.  Not to say that its the norm but there have been several close calls at summit. safty first
Just my 2cents

[Zac]

Keep in mind the 125s should only be in front for a two wave start.  In a combined class single wave, they should not be in front, as I have seen done at times out here in SW.  The SVs and thumpers will kill the 125s off the line.   With 125s in front, some 125 rider will get their leg ran over as they paddle their bike trying to get it to move...

I think it's safer for the 125s having to deal with the slower "big" bikes in turn one than get ran over on the start.  It would be safer still to just always have a 2 wave with the 125s up front.

And yes, I generally mix it up with the slower 125s on my CR500 and it can be a little scary as we take such different lines and are fast in different places.  Probably scarier for them because their eye level is at my footpeg.

-z.

[PJ]

the faster bikes should start first...

The faster bikes did start first. Expert Ultra Light Superbike times at Blackhawk are typically in the mid to low 17s to high 16s for Gary P., Billy B. and myself. We had 7 experts and 7 amateurs take the grid on Sunday. There were 3 125s.

Personally, it doesn't bother me to catch and pass the 125s when they start in the wave ahead of us, as it sometimes makes our race more interesting. And I understand the frustration of the fastest 125s having to work through the slower ULSBs. I had the same issue at the Barber round working through 40+ 125s. The big issue is the speed and preferred line differences between the bikes.

[Super Dave]

The faster bikes did start first. Expert Ultra Light Superbike times at Blackhawk are typically in the mid to low 17s to high 16s for Gary P., Billy B. and myself. We had 7 experts and 7 amateurs take the grid on Sunday. There were 3 125s.

Thanks, Paul.  Very telling.

Any cool jobs at H-D for someone like me?