Qualifying

[Super Dave]

That's plain wrong...

There might be a corportation that is looking at CCS Racing as something that they can get a return for their money, but to say that the staff of CCS doesn't care, etc...  That's BS.

Since 1999, I have had three rules changed.  I gave input into purses for this year.  I'd say that I have some reasonable contact with some of the CCS staff.  And there are times when I don't agree at all with what happens.  And there are times when I eventually get my way.

If you've got ideas, get 'em out, let's talk, and one builds support for new ideas or changes to existing ones.

This is like racing...you can't win if you quit.  Winners never quit.

You're never gonna get anything changed telling yourself that they don't care...

[Clay]

I'm not talking about the CCS staff, I'm talking about Clear Channel.  ;)  I know the CCS staff cares, but the fact that they're so horribly understaffed tells me that the big dogs don't give a damn about anything but the dime.

Basically, does our ideas come down to saving money or costing money?  Saving money...SURE they can do that.  Cost?  HA, that's funny.

Anyhow, my opinions?  There still needs to be contingency and payouts in the Am class.  I spent more than 1000 dollars this past weekend at Roebling.  If I'm not going to get a shot at making some of that back, why in the hell would I be racing to begin with?  I'd go do a track day where I can get triple the track time for a quarter of the cost.  No, I don't expect to make money doing this, but it's nice to be able to make some of it up!  With that said, I fully believe that experts should get paid more.  I in no right think that it's fair that I get paid the same amount for an amateur win as I would an expert win.  Contingency is really up to the vendors, so I don't think we have a say in it either way.  But I think it all should pay further back in the field and more for experts.  

Less classes?  Yeah, I can definitely go along with that.  I don't think there needs to be a superbike class.  It's the same as GP, but without any money.  I run the unlimited classes and like it the way it is with no superbike class.  I wish Henry would get a GP class though for the Ams.  It sucks going all the way down to Florida for only two races.  It also sucks going all the way down there not being able to make a dime.  It's also going to suck for those good Florida racers that enter the Am GP at the ROC.  They haven't been able to get any points in GP and will be stuck at the back of the grid.  

Any other opinions?  Sure.  Daytona...take it off the schedule.  It hurts my points, but I won't race there.  It's too damn dangerous, ridiculously dangerous.  If anyone cares about racers lives, they'd take that track off the schedule.  I know people like racing there, but again...it's horribly dangerous.  

With the complaints out of the way, I'd like to say thanks to the CCS staff.  You do a lot with a little, and you've always been friendly.  As long as you don't loose my pre-registration I'll keep on keeping that opinion.  :P

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

Anyhow, my opinions?  There still needs to be contingency and payouts in the Am class.  I spent more than 1000 dollars this past weekend at Roebling.  If I'm not going to get a shot at making some of that back, why in the hell would I be racing to begin with?

     The whole amateur contingency subject has been argued to death many times, but the general reasons for wanting it eliminated (or greatly reduced) seems to echo the same thru each debate of the subject. For those of us that have been with CCS for a while, we have seen several trends that seem to continue like sandbagging (racers staying amateur when they should be going expert). This often times happens because of the contingency offered in the amateur classes and the ease of winning it for the sandbaggers. A 2nd but equally important reason for wanting it eliminated is the fact that many racers stay amateur because it's comfortable there. Why would someone want to fight harder than needed for a decent payout? When you go expert you will have to earn that money against tough competitors instead of cherry-picking the amateurs. If there were no contingency in the amatuer races, and larger/deeper payouts in the expert classes, I bet you would see ALOT more racers going expert sooner! This would probably help to eliminate the expert level amateurs who accumulate most of the race winnings through out the country year after year.

     Sadly though there is another trend that runs true, length of participation in this sport. So many racers have come and gone in the time that I have been racing with CCS that the 2-3 year expectancy of most racers staying with our sport seems very accurate. This in itself results in a problem of the vendors wanting to make the most money possible, so they pay-out in the amatuer classes. The theory behind this is that if you train someone to use their product during a vulnerable period (learning) that hopefully they will become long time users of that product and encourage others to also use that product. The vendors offer the contingency to amateurs hoping for a bigger profit from all the non-contingency earning amateur racers who will also use their products because they are on the payout sheet.

     I have seen many amateur racers who were very hesitant to go expert because they were either intimidated or felt they wouldn't be able to earn contingency anymore because they were "going to get their butt kicked" in the expert class. This is where higher/deeper payouts in the expert classes would encourage amatuers to advance. The amatuer class is where you go from crawling, to learning to walk, to starting to run. Encouraging racers to stay at the walking stage isn't healthy for keeping racers in this sport, which is what amateur contingency does.

     Honestly Clay, if you knew that you wouldn't make a dime from winnings/contingency until you went expert, wouldn't that encourage you to want to go expert as soon as possible? If you knew that the expert classes paid deep enough into the field to a point that you knew you could achieve, wouldn't that make you want to go expert ASAP? I thought I would get my butt handed to me when I went expert back in '98, but I was running top 5 at my 1st expert event! I believe that if the expert pay-outs were higher/deeper into the field that you would see alot more racers stay in this sport alot longer. In case you don't know the #1 thing that causes racers to exit this sport is massive debt or inability to financially continue doing it. Sadly the people you often times see leaving are the people that could have passed on valuable knowledge to the amateurs. There are not alot of veterans in this sport which in itself screams that there is a problem.

     In my opinion amateur contingency hurts the sport more in the long term by taking money away from the racers who continue to support the sport. Moving that money to help support more of the experts would help to keep more racers roadracing for longer. :)

[Clay]

I think that's why I say "more for expert, less for am".  But don't completely take it away from the amateurs.  I'm telling you, that contingency is what's keeping me racing!  If I hadn't won the money I had at Roebling this past weekend, it literally would have broke me.  I came home with two 200 dollar checks.  I put one in the bank which put me at -50 and one is being saved for Barber.  The contingency I made mainly from Dunlop is almost enough to pay for one set of tires.  I went thru almost 3 sets at Roebling.  I go out there to win and nothing else.  Winning costs money.  Again, that money I got is now what's making it possible to continue on and fight for the championship.  

In retrospect, I also see what you're saying.  I think it's disgusting that an expert level racer would continue to cherry pick.  I can't wait to go expert.  In fact, I was ecstatic to race with and beat experts in the SS and GTO races!  LOL  I know I won't make as much money next year though, and that also hurts.  I guess I see it both ways.  You can't take away money from the amateurs.  But you can't fairly give an expert the same for first place as you do an amateur.  

On the other hand, you don't want amateurs jumping up to the big leagues too quickly!  I'll tell you, sometimes it's scary racing in the am class.  Some of those guys don't have a clue what a "line" is.  Do you really want those guys jumping up to expert as soon as they can?  They should still be rewarded for a good finish, and to have an incintive to keep on working hard.  

With all of that said...how many people here race to make money?  I know I sure as hell don't.  I'm racing because it's my dream.  I'm racing because I want to someday be sponsored and fight in the big leagues.  I'm racing because I know I'm good enough, and can't imagine wasting the one thing I'm good at.  Money?  That just makes all the cash I spend a little more bearable.  :P

[Eric Kelcher]

Couple points as a semi retired official ( basically I am not in a postion to effect any of this just been around long enough to know how most things work)

If you reduce/remove AM contingency/purse all the new riders will jump ship to those organizations that have AM contingency/purse.

Clay you say that CCS is not listening or making changes; this is mid season of the first year of adding qualifying to EX ULGP, CCS has held very firm in not making major changes mid year, don't expect any classes being killed or practices/qualifying changed until next year.. Have you heard official word that qualifying has been shot down? No there has been no official word for what happens next year.

Daytona dangerous? yes but every track has some elemnet of danger is Daytona the most dangerous motorcycle track in the states? no far from it based on deaths and injuries per racing mile and even based on injuries/deaths per year it does not rank very high. walls can look bad but placement is very key to injuries from impact with those walls.

gridding
by points is really who has the fattest wallet. in order to be gridded in front prior to mid season it's who gets their entry in first since if you post enter first weekend you are gridded in last wave you often will not move up enough until 2-3 races in to actually be gridded in the first couple of rows if you run winners lap times (which with traffic is not common). miss a race you are now gridded behind people you are faster than while your real competition was out front and had clear track. after mid season  you must have spent a ton on entries/tires/travel/racing to have front row points, also those that do grids based on points have a surcharge for post entry even more $$

by pre entry it is race by race if you enter only 2 races you enter those a month or so in adavance and you are normally gridded within the first 5 rows. If you are running the whole season that entering a race or two in advance is just budgeting and cheaper even if you post enter as there is no extra charge for post entry.

gridding is best done by qualifying but this is club/Pro-Am racing and there are tradeoffs; race time outweighs qualifying. classes out weigh qualiying for the time being as qualifying would be included in race fee whereas having an extra race is charged. would you be willing to double your entry fee for a race of equal distance that had qualifying? doubt many would and that is reality qualifying needs a minimum of 15 minutes to be effective a race takes 15-20 minutes. practice is not an option for qualifying as explained earlier.

Don't think of racing as any sort of entitlment just because you win at the am level or even the epxert level does not mean you are owed anything. I ran endurance races for 4 years no purse or contingency just pure racing for the love of being on a racebike average cost per year was over 15,000 that is almost 2grand a weekend. We ran hard and finished well most years 5,2,9(we quit mid year due to castrophic injury to a rider),6 (skipped last two rounds as riders flaked then I canceled the endurance team and sold bike). I atually don't like the purse and contingency  programs at all and I think they have hurt club racing more than they have helped. why? in order to pay contingency a vendor must charge more for their product to cover the payout club must charge more to pay purse. ridrs must now buy more supplies (bikes, tires, brakes, oil, fuel, etc) in order to beat the other guy who also spent $$ on supplies in order to win the contingency that is offered so that they can buy more supplies $$ and if you are out of top 5 or so you make 0 andyou most likely spent as much as the guy who took the 5-10-15-20% whatever in markup on products you used to pay his contingency when he won 1st place. basically contingency/purse has made club racing a have/havenot situation. I would prefer if the pricing was brought down no contingency offered and racing was more pure for the sake of being the best on the track and when you wanted to make money you went off to a seperate pro FUSA race that had the contingency and purses. so there would really be three levels of racers AM (beginners) EX (those preparing for pro compettion and seasoned riders) and PRO (those wanting to make money and compete against the tougher competition) the lack of contingency/purse on club level would reduce cheerypicking, reduce cost (noone would have to verify, send in, keep track, or recruit contingency sponsors) and I think make for and even more relaxed family atmosphere at the track ( you really are just racing for a piece of wood then), eliminate anyone having any conflict with medical or life insurance.

Is this at all possible not today club racing changed 20 years ago when Honda put serious money in club racing.

Sorry it is late and I tried to catch as many of typos/grammer/spelling errors as I could.

[ecumike]

.... I went thru almost 3 sets at Roebling.

Holy fuch, 2-3 sets/weekend!
WOW, makes me even more glad I race a small bike.

:D

[Clay]

Yup, you race a liter bike...you go thru tires.  :(

All good points from everyone.  They've all got plusses and minuses.  

[Super Dave]

There still needs to be contingency and payouts in the Am class.  I spent more than 1000 dollars this past weekend at Roebling.  If I'm not going to get a shot at making some of that back, why in the hell would I be racing to begin with?

Contingency for amatuers is really new.  Purse payouts of any kind for amatuers is six years old?  Maybe.

The point of being an amatuer used to be that you gained experience to get those white plates.

Now you have sandbaggers from region to region.  Guys that move into another region to take the money.  Guys that spend unbelieveable amounts of money to be "amateur" champions.

Daytona off the schedule?  Never happen.  Without Daytona International Speedway, Championship Cup Series would have never existed.  Their involvement and help has been way to valuable to CCS.

If you reduce/remove AM contingency/purse all the new riders will jump ship to those organizations that have AM contingency/purse.

Hard to do in the midwest where CCS doesn't have any competition.

If the structure that I proposed existed, it might work.  CCS should also have a product that attracts riders.  Would a new structure?

I would prefer if the pricing was brought down no contingency offered and racing was more pure for the sake of being the best on the track and when you wanted to make money you went off to a seperate pro FUSA race that had the contingency and purses.

DOT tires are more and more like real racing tires.  We were paying a little under $200 for a set of Dunlop K591's for 600 Katana's in 1988/89.  Paying a little over $300 for a set of radial tires for a 600 now is great.  The 591's didn't last long for Russell, Polen, and those guys then.  Fresher will always be faster.  Same goes today.

The contingency makes it attractive for a rider to try and enter fifty races a weekend to get points for the ridiculous championships.  Those championships would be fine if the last place guy got one point, rather than 31 points for doing one lap and finishing twentieth.

There are manufacturers that have brought down the prices of bodywork.  Hey, there was a time when we used stock bodywork.  

Bike prices have increased.  My 1988 Katana retailed for $4k...new R6's $8k.  

When I started racing in 1987 - entry fees - $30 for the first entry, $20 for the second, $10 for the third...they went up that year too...

Purses are the things that have not went up.

In the early 70's, Yamaha contingency payed out $2500 in the 250 class for the win, and $3500 for the 350 class for the win...TD3's (Yamaha 250 GP bike) cost about $2500, and Yamaha TR3's (350 GP bike) cost $350.  

My first AMA race was in 1988.  There were complaints then that the Superbike purse was lower than the 250 GP purse from eight years before.

Experts are pros.  That's all there is to it.  Fritz Kling still has a CCS or WERA expert license.  He can go race Suzuki money, etc.  So can Robert Jensen, Denning, Chuck Sorensen, Mark Junge, Jesse Janisch...

And Stumpy, Jeff Kufalk, Sean Wyatt, and Benji Thornton.

Now of the four above, who wants to run "pro"?

Who doesn't?

The current expert set up needs to be changed to reflect the change in the playing field.  Certainly there are guys out there that have ran pro races, do run pro races, or would like to run pro races.  Their level of mental and mechanical commitment is different from many racers.  They should be rewarded with something that would help them and the show, even if it is a "sportsman" event...some of which still pay $500 to $1500 in contingency money.  

For those that don't want to run "pro" develop that "sportsman" tier for "non-amatuer" and "non-pro" (and maybe that's the best way to look at them).  We all know the guys that ride well and don't need to be yellow platers.  And there are those guys with expert plates that do honestly do this for the fun and community relationship.  

Do I have any takers on building a rules plan on this?  It's time to start talking.

[Dawn]

Guys that spend unbelieveable amounts of money to be "amateur" champions.

And there are those guys with expert plates that do honestly do this for the fun and community relationship.  

Well Dave,

As I look at Paul's amateur championship trophys from last year, I am certainly glad that he was able to have the opportunity to obtain such an accomplishment.  Don't take anything away from that.  Unless Ed Key or Brian Lacy decide to retire, chances are Paul would not be able to earn the expert championship due to size, skill, and bike development.  Did Paul sandbag to stay amateur one more year....  No, he only had 8 weekends of racing under his belt prior to last year and a winning percentage in the 300's (yea, he sucked and he knew it).  Did he send in a petition to stay amatuer, yes, because of the above reasons.  So... for the 2003 season, we ran the full schedule, won a number of races and was in the top five of all races entered except for one.  Paul is now an expert.

If you take away any incentive to stay amateur, you will have those moving to expert long before they are ready.  In a double points weekend, the 750 points to qualify for expert status would not be that hard to accomplish.  Then, these riders without enough race experience, will be running in the expert classes.  Just think about the racer's meetings when the decide to combine both the expert and amature classes or practices.  I hear many experts saying that they don't want them combined because it's too dangerous.  

Becoming an 'expert' is not the big ego boost that you may think it is.  As you said, there are those who run just for the fun of it and Paul is one of those.  

Dawn   :)

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

     I may not have expressed clearly what I meant by amateurs who should move to expert status sooner. What I meant was those that race more than 2 seasons as an amateur. There have been too many racers that sandbag and run multiple race organizations as an amatuer but limit the number of races in each organization to a point were they wouldn't get bumped up to expert or could petition to stay back. Those people really ruin it for the up and coming racer who may think that they aren't up to speed with the faster amateurs of similar experience, when actually they are racing against expert level amateurs. This could make them think they should stay back another season when they really are ready for the move.

     I too believe that inexperience around dramatically faster riders could cause problems with some of the lesser experienced racers. But if you think about that we already have this situation currently with the combining of some of the fastest classes at every event. I much prefered the days when amateur classes and expert classes were run seperately. But today we have so many classes that this is no longer possible, so we have combined classes which result in the slowest amateurs being lapped by the fastest experts mid-race at an 'on fire' pace.

     As I have expressed a number of times before I believe that the expert upgrade should be based on a combination of experience and lap times as compared to the fastest experts lap times in that same class at that same event. This would be a good way to weed out the multi-year sandbaggers and be more of an accurate measuring stick of ability. Much in the same way that qualifying places you on the grid based on your lap times, upgrading by comparing lap times of amatuers to experts in the same classes at the same event would be hard to dispute. I believe that a fast amateur should be allowed to complete a season once they have reached the 'bump' point to go expert based on lap times. I also believe that this would be a useful tool for CCS when an amateur wished to upgrade to expert mid-season. Just establish a 'bump point' lap time percentage as compared to the experts, similar to what the AMA does to determine the slowest lap time allowed on the grid for the race based on the fastest qualifier time. I believe this would also work well for the system SD proposed of a 3 tier class structure in determining eligibility for the upper most level, just a lower percentage of the fastest qualifiers time would be allowed to race.

[EX#996]

Thanks for the clarification Mike.  You have some very good points.

Dawn   :)

[Clay]

Dave, I like your ideas.  I like mine too.  30, 20 and 10 for race entries?  I could only dream as much.  :(  Damn, I paid 330 dollars for my 5 race entries last weekend at RRR.  :(  I won't let go of the idea that you still need contingency and purses for the amateur class.  I also still believe that experts should get paid more and deeper in the field.  

If I win my races at the ROC, I'm going to look at them as a huge accomplishment.  The guys who I'll be racing against out there could run top 5 expert at most events.  This is my first year ever racing.  It's also a tight points race between myself and my team mate Donald.  (Speedster)  I'm thoroughly enjoying it too!  This year in the SE, just showing up at all of the races won't win you an amateur championship...you've got to fight for it.  LOL  I know some of the Florida guys that are going to be hard to beat down at the ROC too.  Anyhow, I ramble on.  I guess I'm with Dawn in saying that an amateur championship for me is something special.  If I win, I will have taken a championship in my first year of racing and will be a first year expert.  That gives me alot of pride, and I'll wear it happily.  ;D