Backmarkers/privateers in the AMA

[Jeff]

I don't race, but I can relate.  :-/

I don't think it's about racing as much as it is about pouring your life into something you love, and sticking with it when the bad gets worse, and the worse sinks 10x lower.

Yep, many can relate...  Well said.

And I'm not ashamed to admit that I could not do it.  If I had unlimited financial support for an indefinite period, I would try.  But since I don't (yet), I'll stick to having fun in the CCS arena...

In 2002, I ran a full CCS Midwest season.  Only ran 3 classes, but ran the entire season without missing a weekend.  This was much more like work than fun.  The memories are good, I learned a lot that year.  But I don't know that I could do it again.  It took a lot out of me and my family.  I couldn't imagine what it would take to do it at the national professional level.

Thumbs up to those who run a privateer AMA for full seasons at a whack.

[KBOlsen]

I never followed road racing before I became a racer.  No spoop  ("spoop"... makes me giggle).

The first year I went to the Indy show, Andy Adler offered to take my picture with Ben Bostrom... I looked at Andy and very quietly whispered, "Which one of those guys is Bostrom?"

The first time I ever rode up to the AMA races at Road America, I ooohed and ahhhhed at the huge trailers and multiple-bike teams lined up along the pit lane.  Unreal stuff... distant and too far removed, like Hollywood.

My AMA heroes are the guys I've shared the track with at Blackhawk.  Guys like Kevin, Tez, Jesse... sweating it out there week after week and doing what they do make them superstars in my book.

Damn, now that I think about it, privateers are the reason I pay any attention to AMA racing at all.  To me, the privateers ARE the SOUL of professional racing.  

[OmniGLH]

Did somebody complain or say something derrogatory about you guys?

Great post... I'm just curious about the reasoning behind it.

[Woofentino Pugrossi]

Did somebody complain or say something derrogatory about you guys?

Great post... I'm just curious about the reasoning behind it.

Jim, I think its because theres a lot of flack on some other sites towards privateers being lapped. I can name a couple sites who bag on Tez because they think he should be in the top 5 every race because MJ is sponsoring him. Seen a few posts on the same saying if a backmarker is lapped, he/she should pull off. Mostly from people who've NEVER been in a race in any org.

[MudDawg]

Usually Sadowski has some derogatory comment about backmarkers.  

But let's face it...TRUE privateers can't really compete with the factory teams due to lack of equipment and costs.  

It's nice to see the fast factory riders...they are truely talented.  But even at the world level great riders get lapped.  

So to me...backmarkers (And yes...I've been one in the AMA before...even got TV time!!!) are the 'unknown' factor in a race.  I've seen them make or break a race many times.  Sucks when they don't go your way....but that's part of racing.  Now if the AMA wanted to do the BMW Boxer cup racing...deliver the bikes and let the factory guys tweak the suspension only...then it would become very very interesting to watch.  But they don't want that.  They want their annointed riders on the podium.

[Dawn]

I'm the one studying the screen just hoping for a glance to see someone I know.  It's fun to say, "Hey, I know that guy!"

Dawn  

[WebCrush]

I was supposed to be doing Mid-Ohio but THIS (http://racing.webcrush.com/photo_booth.asp?name=../../shoulder_pin.jpg) put a damper in my plans.

Still trying for the VIR event end of Sept.

[Super Dave]

But let's face it...TRUE privateers can't really compete with the factory teams due to lack of equipment and costs.

Ok, here's the problem right here.

Yeah, finances help.

But ask Tez if it helps completely?  That's going to be as close as one gets to some kind of unlimited budget.

The fact of the matter is that Robert Jensen finished fifth in the AMA Supersport race...at Brainerd...riding his own bike that he built himself.  Driving a gas powered box truck around the country.  Privateer.

Anyone read RRW?  Jeremy Toye is a fast rider.  Anyone reading what they are doing with the R1 in Superbike?

It can be done, but a rider is needed.  

The manufacturers predetermine many of the positions by withholding parts and information to "support teams" and "privateers".  They claim certain special parts on each others bikes to maintain the control of special components.  Yeah, it's not a fair playing field, but it can be done.

I worked with Dale Quarterley for a few years.  I owe him a lot for some of the knowledge base that I have.  As a rider/owner/mechanic/transport driver he could never be counted out.  Finished second in the AMA Superbike championship in 1993...Won at Mid-Ohio.  I was on the podium with him at Charlotte...Big field with big names...Polen, Edwards, James, Kipp, DuHammel, Stevens, Picotte, etc...

It can be done.

It isn't easy.  An unlimited budget won't help for most riders.  

[r6_philly]

so if you have unlimited budget you wont be able to buy the equipment is what you are saying right?

How likely is it to have unlimited budget and then obtain some equipment that are competitive to what the factory run, if not directly from the factory? I truly believe if you have enough money and know where to spend it, you will and can get most things you want. If you have unlimited budget you can buy knowledge and expertise from a third party that can probably develop something for you that can make your equipment closer to the front.

But then most of the privateer wouldn't know what to do with the equipment, at least in the beginning. I don't think putting me on a factory bike right now is going to do me much good, because I wouldn't understand how most components work, let alone trying to set it up. That will come from time and exprience. If Tez's crew spend the money wisely they will rent a track a few times around the country and test and test and test, while he learn to gather feedback and give feedback to set up his bike.

I think most privateers just ride fast on talent and skills learned through club racing. When they are given superior equipment, they will be like rookies because they lack the exeprience (no matter how many years they have been racing) with that level of equipment. That requires rider development that none of us has ever developed.

Give tez time. If he gets long term support, and be managed wisely, he will come to. learning to be a "pro" is a long process.

I think Super Dave always hint about it in most of his posts. What privateer lack are rider development and knowledge and experience that are very rare in our club racing enviorment. The factories have a running gig and beyond the 20 people crew they have engineers working behind the scenes. Support, but beyond financial support (of course money could buy all that) is what privateers really need. and some time to learn.

hey Dave, you think I am getting wiser? lol I learned a very hard lession this year. I had more track time this year than most people ever dreamed of, but I still struggle to set up my bike. Because I lacked some support. Very frustrating. I am actually planning on starting over from learning how to ride, with the help of a self-developed data acqusition system (yes being a engineer and geek does help?)

[Protein Filled]

In my mind, I think that what Dave is saying is that regardless of budget, the most important thing to make you go fast around a racetrack (in order of importance) are:

1) skill (or talent, whatever you want to call it)
2) skill
3) skill

Yeah, a good bike helps, but you can be riding a Moto GP bike and still be beat by a guy on a SS 600 if you lack any of the 3 things above.

Now a guy that has talent will benefit from having a good bike under them... but then again, I remember reading that Duhamel got on a 100% fully stock CBR600 ( from the showroom, except for tires) and lapped only 3 seconds off his pace on his fully built CBR600 supersport bike.

Now the question is, why do these guys have such higher skill levels than most people? Well, my opinion on it is that they get to learn what their  tire/suspension can and cannot do. They really know what the ultimate limits of their setups are. It's not only what they can do with tire grip, but also corner entrance, mid-corner speed and exit speed. They know what they can get away with and how to get away with it.

Now going back to the original post, I believe that TV and the way that commentators refer to lappers may confuse people. When you watch a race on TV, they focus on the top 3 to 5 guys and ignore the rest, except when they are being lapped. This may make people who only watch motorcycle racing on TV believe that lappers are bad for the sport. If you have ever been to a race and watched it in person, you will learn that many times the real race, the one that is exciting to watch, is not the one for the win, but instead, it's the one where the guys are battling it out, having a real good dice. Whether that is for 10th. or 15th. or 20th...it's irrelevant!!!

[khanson]

You said a key word "data aquisition" which can certainly help.   There are still world class riders that have no clue how to setup a bike and data aquistion will tell you really whats going on.

Money doesn't always buy you the kit parts.  Some people don't have the big budgets but have the connections to get the parts.

Take Honda for example on the new superbikes.  All 3 of there factory riders don't have a backup bike and had to share one between two riders.  Do you honestly think that if you have a million dollars to do a lease on one that you will get one?  It won't happen.

One thing is for sure, I've learned it's not all the bike, those guys can freakin' ride the wheels off of it.  Anyone see the SB race at Brainerd with Zemke, Duhamel and Mladin.  Trust me, It's much more impressive that on tv when they go by you in practice and the race.

However, you can also look at former factory riders that are doing privateer stuff on their own now and see where they are finishing.  It's not like they woke up and forgot how to ride one day.

[r6_philly]

I personally have the following observations.

I go on on my bike, noticed something that the bike is doing. I think about it afterwards, but no matter how much time I spend on it, I cannot positively tell you if that thing is good or bad. I lack the experience.

I think data acquisition will help because you now have hard data to back up and/or support your feelings and feedback you gather. Instead of saying "the bike feels soft" we can now find out how fast does the bike travel through the suspension stroke and how far. Then we can make correct adjustments, internal or setting wise.

The privateer testing consists of riding, feeling, make adjustment, then go riding again to see if it helps. It is very inefficient even if you guessed it right. But most of the time we cannot accurately tell what the bike is doing and tell if the adjustment helps. We also may not be able to ride consistent enough to use laptime as a gauge. How many of us have luxury of running splits anyway???

so, if your bike have a data acquisition system that can tell you what the bike is doing, preferrably by recording throttle position/brake lever position/engine rpm/actual speed/front and rear wheel speed/front and rear suspension travel, you will be a lot more accurate with your analysis of BOTH RIDER AND MACHINE.

I am a very analitical person. I cannot just go and ride the bike. I think about what I am doing and must understand everything and do everything based on a scientific concluded decision. I do not really think about it when I am riding, but before and after. That is how I improve. I suspect I have no talent, but I have and will continue to develop my skills.

Rracing has been the hardest thing I have ever done. It has been easier to be better at other things in my life.But thats what makes it fun, I look at making myself a better racer like developing a good machine. And it is coming along slowly, but with help of more data, it would be quicker.

now if I come up with an "affordable" data acquisition system for the privateer, wouldn't that be a seller ;)