2003 SV Powerband problems

[bdomenz]

I have a 03 SVS 650.

Had motor work done to it. Manual cam tensioners, M4 High mount exhaust, Power commander, 1mm over, removed a layer of the head gasket, etc. And I'm running VP U4 fuel.

Overall it gained very nicely - dyno is much improved over stock all the way through the powerband.

But - when it reaches about 8800 RPM the powerband levels off completely flat instead of continuing that gently slope before tailing back off. It was also oscillating about 1500 RPMs at idle.

So, we had the secondary butterfly valves removed, sync'd the carbs and put ignition timing back to stock (was advanced 4 degrees).

This helped the idle smooth out, and gained about 500 rpms of additional pull. But it still flattens off at 9200 RPM'sh, instead of that nice final slope.

At Road America I could really feel this. If I was coming out of a turn, as I accelerate and the RPMs hit around that 9000 mark, it almost feels like you've hit a soft rev limiter.

Valley Racing is doing the motor work, and we've tried a bunch of stuff, but we can't find the fix. He even re-wrote a Yosh map to the stock black box (?not sure what this means?), and has played extensively with the powercommander to no avail.

His two thoughts are:

1) Get rid of the high mount exhaust and going with the sport mount (which has less bends). Which might improve flow.

2) Try a different stock black box. Because this one had this same 9000RPM flat spot characteristic when I purchased the bike Bone Stock.

Anyone have any suggestions on what the most logical next steps should be?

We're stumped.

Thanks.
- Bob


__________________
Bob Domenz
#364 SV650
www.3dracingonline.com
bdomenz@avenue-inc.com

[Super Dave]

Throw away the PC...

Get a Teka unit from Factory Pro.

Recheck the cam timing.

Try a different fuel.

For years and years, VP has had this little problem with their blending...occasionally, because of the raw materials they use and they way they blend it, you can end up with water in a new unopened and sealed container of VP.

[bdomenz]

Thanks.

The flattening after 9k is there with or without the PowerCommander. Maybe the Tecka can override it all? -- hadn't heard of them before, will look into it.

We've also tried lots of different fuels, I just settled on the U4 because it was the best "value" for HP vs. $$. And it doesn't need to be drained after every weekend.

We'll take a look at cam timing again.

[Kevin177]

maybe you should try saving weight, by say taking my parts off and giving them back to me!  

 ;D

[bdomenz]

hey, enough comments from the peanut gallery.

i need real ideas!

are you going to make friday practice?

[BlueRidgePerformance]

Throw away the PC...



Try a different fuel.

For years and years, VP has had this little problem with their blending...occasionally, because of the raw materials they use and they way they blend it, you can end up with water in a new unopened and sealed container of VP.

Can I say bullshit on this board? Dave I will put up any Vp Fuel against anything Power Mist makes!Why would the NHRA,AMA,SCCA recomend VP. I have been selling VP for 3 years now, and never have had the problem other fuels have.VP wrote the book on race fuel.

[Super Dave]

Power Mist is the oldest racing fuel company on earth...their history dates back to the 30's.  So, the book has already been written.  But I'm not sure how Power Mist came into this?

Why would the NHRA,AMA,SCCA recomend VP.

NHRA, AMA, SCCA...that's a fee paid by VP to them.  It's called sponsorship money.  

VP does not garuntee that their methanol will pass NHRA tech...Power Mist does.  As a sponsor of NHRA, you'd think they'd garuntee it.

VP Fuels are supported by sales from their parent company Coastal...remember the old guy that married Anna Nicole?  That was the owner of Coastal...Lots of money to buy those sponsorships...

Anyway, Power Mist is a really small company that is still family owned and operated.  I can and have had fuels made to my specifications.  Rick Fales blends the fuels and runs the business with his mom and uncle.  Rick's dad used to play a big part until he passed away a couple of years ago.  Rick's brother now works for New England Race fuel...for those of you that watch NASCAR races...that's commentator Mike Joy's company...they distribute Power Mist in addition to some other fuels.  

The simple facts are that the other racing fuel players have bigger things behind them to support sponsorship at the levels you're talking about.  

As for me...I've been racing since 1987.  I've been using Power Mist since 1992.  Started selling it in 1999.  I had a whole lot more volume in with car guys, regardless.  Some of the VP fuels had some issues with water.  It was something that happened.  Make some calls, you'll know then.

Do I need to lecture you in the fact that I said change the fuel...Did I say that VP blows?  No.  To not take into account what's in the tank for poor performance would be negligent and poor trouble shooting.  If you had a lawn mower that ran like cr@p, it'd probably be the first thing one would check...as in this case...then we're back to those previous water issues...

Remember when there was the bad batch of Nutec?  (And that used to be Elf, but that's blended by Conoco...)

Anyway, whatever....

If Power Mist were so bad, then it shouldn't allow a no-depth-perception guy like me to even finish in the top of anything now shouldn't it....
 :P

[BlueRidgePerformance]

    Dave, I never said anything was wrong with Power Mist.I know you run, and sell it.
     Can you tell me within the last 3 years when there was a problem with VP Motorcycle Race Fuel?
      I have never heard of or said anything bad about Power Mist.
       I replied to Bob on the WERA Board, it's not a fuel issue with his bike, we have dyno sheets from 4 different 03 SV engines. That's they way they top out.And I agree with you on removing the PC3, and going the Teka route.And cam timing is a likley problem also.Beotch :P

[tigerblade]

Translation: I should shift at 9 grand.   :P ;D

[Super Dave]

I know you run, and sell it.

First, I no longer sell it.  

I have too much going on with my program to continue doing it.  I sold a lot of Power Mist to individuals under strict confidentiality, regardless of their sponsorships.  Doesn't help me sell fuel.  I am still a user.
 

Can you tell me within the last 3 years when there was a problem with VP Motorcycle Race Fuel?

Sure, VP got busted big time a couple of months ago in AMA tech in Supercross.  

Considering that they bring fuels that are not within the rules to AMA National Superbike Events with great regularity, I'm sure they do the same in SX.  Mistake on who's part?

I have never heard of or said anything bad about Power Mist.

But you're baiting yourself with....

Can I say bullnuts on this board? Dave I will put up any Vp Fuel against anything Power Mist makes!

If you want to do that...how about we put up C12 against TO137...  Seems like you're the one making issues.

Simple facts are, again, if it were a lawn mower, I'd check the fuel.  Change it to reduce the potential for error there.  The fact that it is VP doesn't make the fuel bad.  But it was a fact that they did have fuels that became water in new containers.  It's an easy problem to eliminate.  

Like I stated:  

Try a different fuel.

Why are you making this something that it's not?

[BlueRidgePerformance]

  Prolly the way I read "Change the fuel"  you might have said " the fuel in your tank might be contaminated". Read what was said about the way AMA does it's fuel check. If you have any residue it will pick it up.You think the teams would take a chance like that?Like I said, I sell $20k of VP a year, I have never had a can come back to me.

[bdomenz]

Shift at 9k?

That would make sense if that was the true end of the powerband, but Valley Race thinks/thought that it should continue to climb to 10 - 10.5k before tapering off. And that 1 - 1.5k RPMs could be worth another horse or two.

Seems strange that the rev limiter on those bikes is so much higher than 9k, if 9k was the real end of the powerband.

[tigerblade]

I know I've been into the red a few times and haven't bumped the limiter.  Really couldn't *feel* that it was still pulling up there though so I've been shifting a little earlier unless I'm holding a gear between corners.  

[tzracer]

My 2003 has a stock engine with M4 race pipe (not the high pipe) running pump gas. Mine easily pulls past 11,000.

[Protein Filled]

Shift at 9k?

Bob (and everyone else running an SV),

You should always upshift at 6K on the 03 SV's...


 ;D

[tigerblade]

My 2003 has a stock engine with M4 race pipe (not the high pipe) running pump gas. Mine easily pulls past 11,000.

Hmm.  I've got the same pipe.   :-/

[BlueRidgePerformance]

On our endurance bike [03] we run a mildly ported head, the rest I can't tell you. M4 exhaust[low].
We shift at 10k, the tach is off by around 1k from the factory.In the draft I have seen 12k
Bob, you guys are close, but really look at the RRW article from the GNF.Use that timing as a starting point.
With the soft limiter, you will never be bouncing off it like the 02s.

[mdr14]

100 % stick with the Power Commander & VP fuel. I have yet to test anything that works as well.

The only thing you have not mentioned a change with is cam timing

As SD stated start there. I would have to look at my notes for cam timing we have used. I know one set of #'s gave us more midrange and the other set more top end.

I would not be able to check or degree cams till after the AMA Road America

[bdomenz]

6K?

On my 2000 I used to shift at 8500.

Must be that big bad a$s superbike engine of yours.

[bdomenz]

Any notes on cam timing would be great. I don't recall him saying he did anything with mine..

I'll get the most recent dyno numbers, and post them.

Thanks for the ideas!

[BlueRidgePerformance]

Bob, if you do not have adjustable sprockets, you can't change cam timing.If that is the case,it's not your problem.

[Super Dave]

But upon assembly, if the sprockets were not put in correctly, the timing would still be off.

As for Power Commanders, yeah, they can work...

But when you're doing AMA Superbike and they fail, it really doesn't help for any kind of qualifying, etc.  That's why they came off.  

As for testing anything other than VP that was better...I haven't had any of you guys ever buy any Power Mist from me to test...so I guess you're not testin' everything, are you?  LOL!   ???  

Ah, the motorcycle industry...

[BlueRidgePerformance]

Hey Dave, i hope to be back at 4&6 the week of 7/12
If things are going ok, and they have time, maybe we can do some tests.On the SVs, if you put the cams in wrong, your not going to make it through 1 dyno run, let alone race.

[Super Dave]

Read one of my posts...

I'm not selling anymore.

You can call direct if you want some...  973-383-1061

[ekraft84]

I've got an 03 SV and haven't had any problems.  I've done virtually the same SS mods mentioned by Bob.

We mapped the 03 using Citgo Race Gas/Turbo Blue.  The bike ran great.  At the Cycle Jam, I put in VP MR9 and noticed a slight improvement.  Would definitely want to remap if I was running that consistently.

Trying different gas wouldn't hurt, but I don't see where the PC being an issue would come into play.  Get the thing on the dyno and start troubleshooting variables one at a time.

Did you say you had different cam timing?  What's it set at?

[tzracer]

Are you getting any FI errors (are you using the stock tach)?

[bdomenz]

I'm not getting an F1 errors.

Cam timing is set at 107/107.

Does this sound in the right target range compared to what you guys are running?

I'll post the dyno numbers as soon as I get a copy.

[Decreasing_Dave]

I hear Suzuki powerbands break all the time......

Maybe you should just buy a new one......

 ;D

[bdomenz]

cam numbers are 107/107

how does this sound compared to what everyone else is running?