Any TZ pilots out there?

[tshort]

Who can tell me the what the difference is between the TZ250s that snack on SVs in the LWGP race, and the 250 MotoGP bikes that are racing this season?  Just curious (was reading about the 250 race in France).

[Chuck]

Matt Hall is the Best TZ250 pilot I know in CCS.  His Dad Jim is a TZ Guru.

[tzracer]

About 30 lbs and 30 hp.

Other than being 2 cylinder 2 strokes and 250cc, not much else in common. The differences are huge.

An TZ or RS (Honda) cost about $18,000 to $20,000. An Aprilia that is much closer to a factory bike, is about $80,000 (or were when they were available - not sure if they still are, the customer bikes came at various levels).

[TZDeSioux]

Besides the obvious differences, I think it has more to do with the quality of riders. Remember that Jason Disalvo's RS250 was basically the same stuff the privateer WGP guys were riding back when he raced AMA 250GP and the European Championship. If you look at guys like Sekiguchi and Matsudo, they are riding basically a kitted TZ250 with WGP suspension components. Not too far off of what I ride. The Aprilia RSW's are a different story since the factory has a bit more envolvement in their 250 program than say Yamaha or Honda these days. I think the last of full factory envolvement by the Japanese was back when Kato, Nakano, and Olivier were riding in 250GP and if you saw the bikes they rode compared to what the Honda and Yamaha boys are riding now, the difference is like night and day. The entire chassis was different than the customer versions of it. Pre 2000 TZ250 cases were based off the street going TZR250 whereas teh post 2000 TZ's are one off sandcast versions based on what they used to WGP. Take a look at Matsudo's TZ250. There's no carbon once piece subframe/tail section like the old YZR250s and the frame is identical to the one on say my bike. I recall reading that Chuck Sorenson's Aprilia wasn't all that much slower then Melandri's Aprilia at Valencia. The difference was that the WGP guys rode the living piss out of those bikes.

[tzracer]

The kitted Yamahas and Hondas are not very close to the factory bikes. They are a step in the right direction.

Disalvo supposedly had some HRC stuff, but HRC takes it back at the end of the year. I recall a Disalvo engine being for sale for something like $20,000.

I asked Ed Toomey once how close the customer bikes were to the factory bikes, he said the customer bikes were at least a decade behind. Stuff that was used on John Kocinski's Yamahas have never made it onto TZs.

[TZDeSioux]

Check out this website. It will put into perspective how similar the WGP bikes are to the customer verseion of it. http://www.yamaha-kurz.de/  Matsudo's TZ even has the stock rearset/foot pegs on it. Gone are the days when the Jap manufacturers turned out "works" 250GP racers.

[TZDeSioux]

The kitted Yamahas and Hondas are not very close to the factory bikes. They are a step in the right direction.

Disalvo supposedly had some HRC stuff, but HRC takes it back at the end of the year. I recall a Disalvo engine being for sale for something like $20,000.

I asked Ed Toomey once how close the customer bikes were to the factory bikes, he said the customer bikes were at least a decade behind. Stuff that was used on John Kocinski's Yamahas have never made it onto TZs.

Brian.. that may have been true 5 years ago, but the Japs are not putting in a full factory effort in 250 GP anymore. Look at the frame and swingarm that Matsudo and Sekiguchi are running. Exactly the same as mine besides adjustable triples but completely different than say Nakano's from 2000. Oh almos forgot, John Kocinski rode a YZR250 not a TZ  ;) Tetsuya Harada rode a TZM which was no where near a customer TZ.

[motomadness]

I have this video on cutting edge bikes.  It's dated for pre-1995 machines, but they give some perspective on bike costs (I add a few more things I've learned over the years):

Aprilia
- non-WGP customer ~ $80k - $120k, new you keep everything, 220 lbs, 90 rwhp

- WGP customer base ~ $500k, new, lot's of kit stuff, expect to finish top 8-10 - rental/lease, aluminum swingarm

- WGP customer mid ~ $1mil, new/maybe year old, sub factory, expect to finish top 4-8 - rental/lease. carbon swingarms

- WGP factory ~ $2mil, new, all the best, expect top 3 finish - rental/lease,carbon swingarms, 180 lbs, 117 rwhp

[Super Dave]

Suspension would be a big thing, just like Superbike.  

There are things that you just can't get or buy.  Internals that allow low, mid, and high speed dampening, etc., etc.  If you could buy a works fork, it would probably set one back $60k and up...if you could get it.

I'll agree that 250's aren't like the used to be.  There was that talk a few years ago about changing the class to utilizing 600cc production motors in GP chassis...so, you could have a Harris frame with a GSXR600 motor...or a Moriwoki chassis with an R6 motor, etc....

Now there is talk about reducing the size in MotoGP.

[TZDeSioux]

- WGP factory ~ $2mil, new, all the best, expect top 3 finish - rental/lease,carbon swingarms, 180 lbs, 117 rwhp

That would be 209lbs which is the FIM 250GP minimum weight.  ;)

[tshort]

I have this video on cutting edge bikes.  It's dated for pre-1995 machines, but they give some perspective on bike costs (I add a few more things I've learned over the years):

Aprilia
- non-WGP customer ~ $80k - $120k, new you keep everything, 220 lbs, 90 rwhp

- WGP customer base ~ $500k, new, lot's of kit stuff, expect to finish top 8-10 - rental/lease, aluminum swingarm

- WGP customer mid ~ $1mil, new/maybe year old, sub factory, expect to finish top 4-8 - rental/lease. carbon swingarms

- WGP factory ~ $2mil, new, all the best, expect top 3 finish - rental/lease,carbon swingarms, 180 lbs, 117 rwhp

Wow  :o  That's a pretty cool comparison.  And so where do those TZ's fit in that?  weight/power?  Weren't they purpose-built GP/race-only bikes?

[tzracer]

Look at the frame and swingarm that Matsudo and Sekiguchi are running. Exactly the same as mine besides adjustable triples but completely different than say Nakano's from 2000. æ

But how different are the engines? The frames may be the same, but suspension and engine are not close to what you have. That is the major difference between your bike and Oliver's bike (besides the nut twisting the throttle:)). He admits that his would not be competitive in a GP.

Yamaha was still running YZRs in 2002
http://www.europark.com/machines/ny-rmlst.htm

I was comparing to the bikes that are winning rather than comparing customer TZs to the TZs being raced in GPs today. I read it as a more generic comparision of TZs that he races against versus the bikes he sees racing on TV.