Coolant PoLL !!!

[Woofentino Pugrossi]

Screw it. Ban liquid cooled bikes and make everyone ride air cooled.:D:D:D

[YamRZ350]

Hey Tom:

What a first post!  Welcome to the board.  Anyone on here knows that I am not self centered (although I like to BS sometimes).

PG cleans up with water... So what's the big deal?

I have a good question and provided figures. You called me ignorant?  Convince me that I'm wrong.

We're not lazy, far from it.  We meticulous with maintenance.  If not, how could we have gotten 2 years of racing and seven championships without even cracking the cases on the motor?  Not by being lazy thats for sure!

Dawn  

Hi Dawn. Thanks for the welcome.

I'd love to see were you got those numbers from, and who did the research.

No matter really, since your own numbers tell me that PG is worse when spilled than Water / Water Wetter.

Wouldn't you agree that anything we can do (no matter how small) to reduce the risk of a crash and minimize the clean-up time is a good thing?

You obviously take pride in your program and equipment. That tells me that you should know better than most that it is not a hard or time consuming job to drain a bikes cooling system. I'll borrow a quote from you,"what's the big deal?"

Let's set aside the crash risk argument for now and just focus on the clean-up. I am sure that any corner worker you ask would rather deal with water on track rather than PG. Don't you think this is reason enough to go thru a little extra bike prep.?

tom

[cornercamping]

You guys are missing the point.   That 25% as little as it matters in all reality, is still an ADDITIONAL RISK that is not necessary.   Regardless, when you go out on the track, your at risk of getting hurt, and ANYTHING, that COULD add to a bad situation in progress, regardless of how much more is NOT necessary.  

It's kinda like this, and a few think I'm nuts.

I have a handgun ( HK USP .40 cal for those interested) and I keep a trigger lock on it.   I also lock it in a safe.   Why?  Trigger lock is enough to keep the kid from messing with it and getting hurt.  I don't put it in the safe so it doesn't get stolen.  I put it in the safe incase the trigger lock doesn't work out like expected.

Same shite, different pile.  Eitherway, precautions will only HELP the situation, regardless of how much, and god knows that at the speeds we travel around that race track on 2 wheels, we need all the help we can get.  

Another thing you can think about:

Just because you hit a spot of coolant doesn't mean you'll go down instantly.   It could happen a turn or two later.   Atleast water will dry quickly due to tire temp.   Watter Wetter makes up a small precentage of what's in your radiator.  It's mostly water.

[cornercamping]

Damn I type slow  >:(

[cornercamping]

That's it, I've had it.  >:(   I'm no longer selling Tech stickers to anyone unless you prove you are running only water or watter wetter.    :P ;D

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

Water+ Water wetter. CCS and AMA legal. I guess I'd rather risk a cracked block than another racer's livelihood. Really have not heard a good arguement to run PG other than convenience.        

     I use Evans NPG (non-aqueous Propylene Glycol) due to its superior cooling ability over water based coolants thru much more efficient heat transfer. Water based coolants have a flaw that can't be avoided, only delayed thru aditives, and ultimately is why I won't use them unless I have to.

     Water will allow hot spots to form in the engine that are far hotter than what your temp. guage is registering. This is caused by the fact that water, once it reaches a point at or slightly over boiling (if using additives), will boil and create a steam layer at the surface of the hot metal. This steam layer greatly reduces the ability to transfer heat from the metal to the water, therefore creating localized hot spots in your engine. The results of this are greater temperatures near the combustion chamber and other areas of the engine which in turn can lead to less power, possible damage, and engine knock.

     Evans NPG is non-aqueous (not water based) and has a boiling point of something like 370*, so it won't form steam layers like water based coolants will (during almost all race conditions). Because NPG remains in contact with the actual metal surfaces of the cooling system to much higher temp's, and isn't flowing over a layer of steam, the transfer of heat is far superior when you need it most. When I look at my temp guage and it's reading 200* I can feel confident that it's close to the actual temperatures throughout the entire engines cooling system, unlike the higher internal coolant temp's you would see in a water based system.

     I researched this a bit before I went this route, and based on the basic info I just described I decided it was the best cooling option available that is legal for CCS racing. Not everyone will agree with this, but I have to admit the technical reading on Evans NPG was very interesting and informative. If you want to see for yourself go to their website at (   http://evanscooling.com/   ).

     I have seen quite a few overflow canisters that were mounted in the tail section or outside of the fluid retaining section of the fairings, so if they overflowed it just went out the back or side of the bike and all over the track. I believe that the overflow for coolant lines from the resevoir should be routed into the fluid retaining lower fairing so as to reduce any coolant of any type from getting on the track.

[251am]

 Hey corner,
those little HK .40s are primo. Wanna sell it? You could ship it with those Dunloppers you were gonna freebie!! ;D ;D ;D ;D :o
  Thanks for the Evans info Mike.

[TBMain954]

Silkolene Pro Cool, good for the track and never freezes.

[Super Dave]

Ok, I've used Water Wetter, but I find Palmolive dish washing soap to be less expensive and easier to get...it does the same thing in distilled water.

I've used Engine Ice, Evans, Sierra, etc...

Never EG...not legal.

Anyway, if we want to talk about what's legal and what one can clean up...

Synthetic oils are rather common and are used by many racers....

And they are a nightmare to clean up when compared to their petroleum counterparts.  

So, should we stop using Syn oils?

I've seen more oil put down on a track than coolant.

Ding, ding!  Ready for number three...

[Dawn]

My figures were found under the tech info on Water Wetter.

http://www.redlineoil.com/products_coolant.asp

Dave and Mike:

Thanks for the additional info, I was going there next, but I couldn't have said it any better than you.

Paul has hit more oil on the track than coolant, perhaps its because he runs the Thunderbike class.   :o  ;D

Dawn  

[Mongo]

Dry track with DOT's or slicks a wonderful feeling and good traction.

Dry track with DOT's or slicks - - Oh Ooooo - - water in the corner!!!!!    :o

Whether its Water Wetter or PG, you're going down.  If you say your not, your full of it.  Plain water or Water Wetter reduce your traction by 50%.  Since you all are running on the edge of traction during a race, your going down if you hit it.  

Water reduces the static friction by 45%
Water reduces the dynamic friction by 50%

Water w/Water Wetter reduces the static friction by 45%
Water w/Water Wetter reduces the dynamic friction by 50%

Water w/PG reduces the static friction by 55%
Water w/PG reduces the dynamic friction by 75%

Convince me that that the additional 25% traction that you gain (after you've lost 50% of your traction already) by running straight water or Water Wetter will keep your hide off the ground.  Your contact patch on your DOT's are about the size of a business card and when your accelerating off the corner, sometimes it's less than that.  Once again, you're on a dry track and you hit a wet area, unless you see it or going in a straight line, your going down.

We run PG and we will continue to.

Dawn  

Huh?  Where do you get your numbers?  I haven't seen a test yet on the friction of these things with regard to the amount of traction you lose on asphalt. WW is not a friction reducer as much as it reduces the surface tension of water allowing for less bubbles on the surfaces the water is cooling. Basically a mild soap solution. I have tested them myself on asphalt since that is where we race last I checked and there is a huge difference between ww and the other couple of products just like it and PG.  Also on a dry track the ww will evaporate leaving no slippery residue and pg will not.  On a wet track the ww gets diluted more than quickly enough to not be noticed, PG does not.  This would be real world experience, not something made up in your head to make yourself feel better.

[bweber]

I have used water and Water Wetter for all 5 years of my racing career.  I always hit the first race, and a couple of those years we saw temps well below freezing and more than a few inches of snow.  I raced upper Midwest races from spring to fall and never had a problem with my engine or radiator freezing.  I did crash a few times due to coolant and/or oil on the track from a improperly prepared bike.  To me, it does not matter if PG will clean up easier than EG because if the bike a few positions in front of you dumps PG on the racing surface and you hit it, it's a pretty safe bet you're going to fall down.  If it was water on the track, you could probably ride through it and stay upright.
I am willing to bet that the makers of PG coolant (Evans, Amsoil, Engine Ice, etc) lobbied the AMA heavily to allow PG coolant so they could sell more product.  IMHO, it is no way near as safe as water and just because it is legal to use does not mean it is the right choice.