2003 Top 10- new rule

[Super Dave]

Granted lap times ahven't changed as much as the marketing would have you beleive (though I question 1:13's???), but bigger bikes or more powerful bikes give a big advantage in passing even on smaller tracks like BHF, and really stretch their legs on bigger tracks like RA .

What's there to question, I'm confused?  Mine came July of 2001, I know Larry Denning did some in May of this year.  When I did mine, Purk and Ebben were chasing me.  Conrad, others too, I'm sure.

Bigger more powerful bikes have an advantage in a straight line, but have to stop that speed.  Unless they have a different or unique stopping mechaninism, they will have to slow down earlier.  Just about anyone can light the switch on the throttle, but slowing down a bike with a basically similar set up faster than another one that is going faster just requires more space.

Look at 600 and 750 lap times from Supersport races and there isn't that big of a difference.  Sure, in Superbike or Formula Extreme, but they can slow down faster (Brakes, calipers, forks, 200HP), but they should be substaintially better times.

[sdiver68]

When I clocked the leading experts at BHF on 600's, I was getting consistent high 1:14's and low :15's.  I probably timed 30 laps.

Granted, there were lots of people missing in late August that you mentioned.  So, I was questioning what the consistent expert times are on a 600 to be podium competitive in Expert at BHF.  

My point about power was that power gives you more opportunities to pass then you would have on equal bikes.  Take a 115 HP 600 versus a 100 HP 600.  Given near equal riders, the one on the 115 HP bike has several more opportunites to pass per lap than  the guy on the less powerful bike.  They can both pass under braking or with cornerspeed, but the 115 HP guy also has the option to pass under power.

Yeah, they are both running the same lap times if the slower guy is all over the other guys tail, but who cares about lap times when there is another bike in front of you at the finish line?

[Super Dave]

Toward August, the heat goes away from the track surface at Blackhawk.  Yes, the times go up a bit at that time.  Best times seem to come in July when the track has some good heat built up into it and into the ground.

As for competitive lap times for 600's and up...

Yes, 14's would be good.  15's are a bit outside what you need.  Shawn Conrad ran a 1:12.9 on his new R1 at the last race in September.  In a money race for Yamaha or Suzuki money, probably need to be prepared to do 13's.  I know that Larry Denning did 1:13.6 in Mid May for Yamaha money.  For the Team Challenge, I ran 15's and 16's.

Ed Key, and I know Mike Riebe, have gotten into the 1:17's on their SV's for reference.

Now you start to talk about horsepower...

Ok, when I did my 13 last year, my engine was stock, with a HMF pipe with a broken #1 header pipe, Power Mist engine oil, Power Mist TO137 racing fuel.  I've never used a Power Commander, and I was using a stock filter.  Depending upon who's dyno you believe, it made 104 to 102HP.  I didn't have any special power in the bike that gave me the time.  Could I have gone faster riding an R1 with 136 to 145 HP?  Maybe only a tiny bit.  Would it have helped?  Only a little bit.

Does HP give more opportunities to pass?  If the riders are absolutely equal, riding the same lines, yes, the bike with the most HP should win.  But racing is an art.  Riding is just a matter of lighting the switch.  A rider with a slower bike might be able to maximize his entry speed by 0.1MPH vs the faster bike.  The bike hooks up better, less spin, does a faster lap time.

Let's look at this another way, this year, my bike made 106HP.  Ed Key's bike makes 73HP. My bike has 45% more HP, a substantial amount.  This year,   I turned some 1:14's due to a balance problem that has beaten me up all year, Ed 1:18's all day long.  That's a whopping 5% difference in lap time even though I have a huge HP advantage.  We have not figured in weight, but that's another issue that is related to power.

The real issue is suspension set up.  That will make lap times go down consistently without riding in terror.  

You seem to be seeking HP, or are at least noting it as a huge factor, when in reality it is the set up and the rider that are the greatest factors in lap times.  The bike's HP is next.

It is for that reason that teams seek out good riders and good knowledgeable crew chiefs and suspension tuners.  Then good tuners for good bikes.  It is a package, but if the rider wasn't as important, anyone could ride.

[Eddie#200]

Dave... that means I kicked ass this year!

[the_weggie_man]

OK, the 2002 rule book already has restrictions on experts for the top ten plates. Supersport, Superbike, GT, Supertwins, Lt Wt - MW - Unltd GP are the only classes that count toward the EXPERT top ten.  Nowhere in the rule book, that I can find in the points section, does it say anything about restricted points accumulation for amateur top ten overall. As far as I can tell, all classes count in the top ten amateur championship.

Anyone else read the rule book the same or ??  Just checking because the kid I sponsor would move up a bunch of places if all classes are counted.

[Eric Kelcher]

Hmm amatuers do not run for 1-10 only experts. Any work on that, I would think, would be Tiffiney just running the program through for AM to get a gauge for themselves.

[TiffineyIngram]

For the amateur division, I do the combined points total the same as how I do it for the experts.  Sportsman, GP Singles, Super Singles and Formula 40 classes do not count towards the overall standings.

[the_weggie_man]

I understand amateurs are not running for a number plate but that does not change the rule book that says all classes are combined for a total point championship. The only excluded classes are for experts.  

To me that says all classes count. So in the total am point total my rider is missing points which is not right.  With all points counted it moves him from 18th place to 11th. Granted, not top ten but close enough for a kid that only ran half the season and it sure would look nice on a resume  for sponsors.

I realize it may be more work to run am and ex different but that's what the rule book says. The riders are expected to abide by the rule book, why not the organization?

[Eric Kelcher]

Where does it say that? rule book that says all classes are combined for a total point championship.
The only thing Am run combined points for is track championship which would be section 10.3 which lists the same classes as expert series championship (which is what program Tiffiney to give riders a guage ) and says Expert AND Amatuer.

[the_weggie_man]

OK, I guess the overall amateur points is not an announced championship. I still think all classes should be counted.  Isn't that why you race?  If nobody wins, why keep score?

The rule book does say (8.1) Points will be awarded based upon the final results of each class run at each race using the following scale. Re., each class at each race. That does not say specific classes at  each race. I'm not talking experts or track championships. I refer to amateur overall points. If you consider it a guage as to their performance I think all point would matter.

[Super Dave]

Historically, what happened was that there were riders trying to get championships.  At the end, they were putting together loads of bikes to ride in all kinds of classes.  Additionally, guys that were over 40 could do a race that riders under 40 could not do.

So, the rules were changed so that only the classes that "did not require specialized equipment" would be counted.

I still think it's kind of bogus.  The overall championship should be limited to a certain number of races per rider, or something.  At least give some a fair shot.

I can't afford nine classes a weekend.  Anymore, you buy your number one plate.  

[sdiver68]

 With all points counted it moves him from 18th place to 11th. Granted, not top ten but close enough for a kid that only ran half the season and it sure would look nice on a resume  for sponsors.

List him as 11th on the resume, maybe use the words Amateur Total Points.  In the 1 in million chance a potential sponsor ever questions the difference, explain it.

Problem solved.