What do you change ? Chassy or Riding Style ?

[Steviebee]

ok,  let's let the guys who might know this help out us newcommers.

How do we decide if a chassy change is warrented vs. just changing our riding style ?

Let's take getting on the gas comming out of a turn,  I can get on the gas sooner, but i might run wide.  Or do i make a chassy change so i can get on the gass sooner ?

This might not be the best example but, i see all theese things about what to do with the chassy to make it different.  Since im new to this, i can make just a big a difference by changing the way i ride ?  

Thoughts ?

[Super Dave]

Yes.

Experience will tell you.  Sometimes the route is both.  

But otherwise, always chassis...as long as you ride consistency.

[Steviebee]

Experience will tell you.  Sometimes the route is both.  .

Have i reached a level 1 apprentice yet ?

[Super Dave]

I think so, but you might have lost that by not following some of your general intution and hitting up a general board for info.

Reality...

How many amateur and recreational road racers are on this board?

Most of them.  

Can they, in reality, give you tried and true ideas that they garnished over years of thought and work?  No.

I know some of the people on this board that have some of that (knowledge and experience), and most of them don't post very much on this board, or any board.

[r6_philly]

so people who post alot knows nothing? :p awwwww

[Decreasing_Dave]

so people who post alot knows nothing? :p awwwww

Yeah...and based on you post counter...you're not too bright.   ;D

[r6_philly]

ya, but based on the post count of the guy who posted that statement, he wouldn't know enough to make that statement in the first place :D 8)

[Super Dave]

ya, but based on the post count of the guy who posted that statement, he wouldn't know enough to make that statement in the first place :D 8)

LOL!  I know...

I enjoy the computer, and I enjoy the board...

But I don't let all the cats out of the bag here either.  I may show the bag...

Regardless, I enjoy some of the boards I play on, and I can type fast.... :P ;D

[r6_philly]

hey super dave, you are the coolest racer I have met at the track in a long time. You always walking around with a smile...

I am starting to have a small bag that I jammed random stray dogs and cats into whenever I can :)

see you at Summit! (I think we would be closer in laptime there  ;D)

[Super Dave]

LOL, lap time...LOL! ;D

Thanks!  I'm a reasonably happy guy.  Two cool boys, a great wife, and I've raced forever.  I teach guys, and now racing against pediatric cancer...can my life be any more full?  If I could just raise enough money where I could visit kids with cancer rather than my goofy job...then life would be grand!

[ekraft84]

I post a lot (not necessarily on this board).  I've taken the Jason Pridmore school and Kevin Schwantz school and have received personal attention from some pretty fast guys.  Would I be qualified to give advice?  Are there things in your "bag" that are above and beyond what they teach?   ;)

I think so, but you might have lost that by not following some of your general intution and hitting up a general board for info.

Reality...

How many amateur and recreational road racers are on this board?

Most of them.  

Can they, in reality, give you tried and true ideas that they garnished over years of thought and work?  No.

I know some of the people on this board that have some of that (knowledge and experience), and most of them don't post very much on this board, or any board.

[Steviebee]

hey how did you like the swantz school vs the pridmore school ?  Iv'e done the pridmore school twice and was thinking about the swantz school.

[Super Dave]

I post a lot (not necessarily on this board).  I've taken the Jason Pridmore school and Kevin Schwantz school and have received personal attention from some pretty fast guys.  Would I be qualified to give advice?  Are there things in your "bag" that are above and beyond what they teach?   ;)

Good questions.  There are lots of schools and instructors out there.  Nothing is equal.  How many people have you worked with?  What have you accomplished and how does it apply to someone elses racing or riding?  Can you communicate?  As the internet shows, everyone that has a computer is "qualified" to give advice.  Open a school.  See what you can do.

To generalize, many top level athletes are very unique individuals that posses certain physical attributes that allowed them to excel in their sport.  Motorcycle racers are no different.  So, there are certain ways that they do things that might not apply to the general public.  

I'm pretty normal and I have no depth perception.  So, I had to approach everything differently.  Riding certain equipment will give you a different perspective on things also.  Riding private motorcycles of the 80's and 90's, in addition to earlier bikes, will give you a different idea on how things work and can be changed when one compares a lifestyle in supported bikes....things that you probably could never buy.

There are no set rules to qualify one for "instruction".  Hard enough to find someone to give you answers about anything related to motorcycle road racing.  Often, monetary success can be related to the amount of money one has to spend on the instructing endevour;  if you've got a lot to fall back on, then you can do ok.  The other side is how many people you can have a lasting impact upon...doesn't have to be championships, but that can be a decent guide if you're working with racers.

[ekraft84]

Good questions.  There are lots of schools and instructors out there.  Nothing is equal.  How many people have you worked with?  What have you accomplished and how does it apply to someone elses racing or riding?  Can you communicate?  As the internet shows, everyone that has a computer is "qualified" to give advice.  Open a school.  See what you can do.

To generalize, many top level athletes are very unique individuals that posses certain physical attributes that allowed them to excel in their sport.  Motorcycle racers are no different.  So, there are certain ways that they do things that might not apply to the general public.  

I'm pretty normal and I have no depth perception.  So, I had to approach everything differently.  Riding certain equipment will give you a different perspective on things also.  Riding private motorcycles of the 80's and 90's, in addition to earlier bikes, will give you a different idea on how things work and can be changed when one compares a lifestyle in supported bikes....things that you probably could never buy.

There are no set rules to qualify one for "instruction".  Hard enough to find someone to give you answers about anything related to motorcycle road racing.  Often, monetary success can be related to the amount of money one has to spend on the instructing endevour;  if you've got a lot to fall back on, then you can do ok.  The other side is how many people you can have a lasting impact upon...doesn't have to be championships, but that can be a decent guide if you're working with racers.

Agreed on the above points.  I've been fortunate enough to get personal attention from Kevin, Jamie James, Michael Martin, Tray Batey and some of the other Schwantz School instructors.  I would recommend that school to anyone - even if you've taken the Star School.

While there is a ton of information out there, I think a good rider has to filter all the information and use what they feel is applicable.  Maybe I picked that up from reading all the Keith Code books time and time again.  There is a lot of information out there and it all might not work for each individual rider.

I don't have the desire to open up a school - I'm not at that level financially or successful enough as a racer where it would be worthwhile. :)  I have won races and a "National Championship" (albiet as an amateur), so I think helping with Sportbike Track Time and Team Chicago this year should be worthwhile and fun.  Even though I'm not at the level of Kevin or Jason, I'm fairly confident in that I can pass on the correct information to racers pretty well.

[Super Dave]

You can't filter out information.  At some point or another, the information is useful.  As a person of knowledge, you have to have ALL the information possible so that you can really "troubleshoot" for a faster rider.  Or a rider that just happens to have mastered the basics early because of prior riding, car racing, etc.  Can one recognize when the bike is a limiting factor?  Can one recognize the changes that might be necessary to an older bike with an older geometry philosophy?  Can one recognize the problems that changing tire manufacturers can have on the chassis in regard to feel?  What questions do you ask?

Slower riders...well, they are slower.  There are basic things that they need to do.  That's pretty simple.  Often, it's just over coming the sensory overload.  That's part of teaching introductory safety/intro racing programs.  Honestly, they will do what they want, and you're just trying to keep them in check long enough to realize exactly how dangerous and cool the whole thing is.

That's a totally different thing when a team hires me to go to a superbike race to get them to qualify at a track they've never been to.  Yeah, we talk about basic things, but I do have to play games with their head, try to get them to talk about what's happening, and place my input into what I think is really going on...without being on the bike or, sometimes, even seeing the bike other than on the pit road.

It's all layered...but term "instructor" applies to everyone, right?

[ekraft84]

When I said "filter out" information, it was in the sense of taking what you hear from "everyone" and deciding if it works for you.  Certain people shouldn't necessarily be instructing with lines like "brake till you see God", or "go faster until you crash, then back it down".  Information like that needs to be filtered out.  Aside from that, all other information does play a point and can come into play at some point in time.

Things definitely are different between the street rider who is just getting into racing, and the seasoned racer who is looking to get a extra second faster around the track.  I fully agree that the syllabus will look different for both classes.

As you said, communication IS everything.  Especially with someone like yourself that is instructing (on a full time basis correct?).  While there are contrasting opinions on Keith Code as a person, I have no doubt that reading his 3 books as many times as I have has made me a better rider - quicker, soley because of how he makes you think and ask questions.  This is something I think we racers take for granted, and I know I step away from it sometimes and have to stop myself and go: "okay, what was happening at the entry of that turn, and how can I make it better for both the bike and myself?"

With that said, I think further knowledge of troubleshooting suspension settings with my own racing is a limiting factor right now.  Although, shouldn't I be able to "ride around" the problem?  That's what I keep telling myself.  Where do you draw the line between the perfect setup and a rider's ability?  Is there such a thing as the "perfect setup"?  I'm hoping some minor changes I made this past winter will help improve both.

[251am]

 Seems you're in the right area after having made a decision to do something, just not quite sure what that something is yet, right? Change you or change the bike, or change both. Put your goals down on paper and go from there. Organize which goals belong to you and which belong to chassis set up, and which are a combo.. Which region will you race?  

[Super Dave]

Organize which goals belong to you and which belong to chassis set up, and which are a combo.. Which region will you race?  

Stevebee is an expert MWGPwhatever guy...and one of my children...one of my racing students.

Organizing goals, thoughts, etc...that's all fine.  But when you're trying to get somewhere in road racing and you're on that edge of going pretty darn fast, Stevebee goes well...how do you push it over the edge?

And...

With just a few sessions of practice at CCS races...that isn't enough time to work on a real set up package.  There are reasons why AMA teams test a locations for two full days, reasons why AMA Superbike practice and qualifying sessions are one hour long.  

Speaking from my own personal experiences, you can be obstinate over many years and learn some things.  Or if you have unique opportunities to work with special people, you do that.  But, along the way, you get to work with people that point you in the wrong direction too.  Motivation, dedication, and all will NOT always get you what you want in this sport.  Luck, cash, and time help.  Hopefully, along the way you put together enough ideas to conserve some of the cash that you spend to keep racing over a long period of time.  Then you figure out what you don't need to spend money on while racing.  

I make way less money than most of the people I know, but I can still race a 600 inexpensively, myself.  Experience taught me how to be more efficient.  

As for books...

Books.

Reading and doing can be pretty different experiences.  Might give you ideas, but probably riding an XR100 around an oval would be more useful in actually learning the dynamics of riding...rather than reading.  

Everyone can do everything differently.  Lots of ways to do things, right or wrong.

[Steviebee]

Actually i was hopeing to foster some conversation about an important part of road racing.  

Theres tons of new racers every year, and theres a lot of information to learn.  Some guys will be fast right out of the box, some of us will have to work on it to get there.

I hear all kinds of "Advice" about racing,  and not everything works for everyone.  The only way to learn is listen and ask questions.  This is just one forum, I was hoping to get some more Tips, in the tips and tricks section.

I only started riding a few years before i raced.  I didnt grow up with dirt bikes or 4 wheelers.  So i got a big learning curve.

Now in my second year, i can stop and think a bit more about everything without getting so overwelmed with the "Holy Crap Im racing a Superbike!!"

Till my next perplexing question.

[Super Dave]

Actually i was hopeing to foster some conversation about an important part of road racing.  

Theres tons of new racers every year, and theres a lot of information to learn.  Some guys will be fast right out of the box, some of us will have to work on it to get there.

I hear all kinds of "Advice" about racing,  and not everything works for everyone.  The only way to learn is listen and ask questions.  This is just one forum, I was hoping to get some more Tips, in the tips and tricks section.

I only started riding a few years before i raced.  I didnt grow up with dirt bikes or 4 wheelers.  So i got a big learning curve.

Now in my second year, i can stop and think a bit more about everything without getting so overwelmed with the "Holy Crap Im racing a Superbike!!"

Till my next perplexing question.

Well, yeah...

First, in this sport, most people only are around for two to two and a half years.  Including the guys that are fast out of the box.  So, any real information that is passed usually comes from people that have that amount of experience.

Or have only done an amount of races that is equal to two to two and a half full seasons of racing.  

Some of the experts that have white plates have raced at AMA Nationals only to say that they have done so.  How many experts do you know that have put a bike in the top ten at an AMA National?  Competed in the whole series?  Tiny amount of racers there.

Not every thing applies to everyone...yeah, but each thing might apply in different situations too.  Your situation might be different currently.  So, most people that are available to you to get info from at the track...well, it's potentially based on small amounts of information that they have came up with in a small period of time.

Often times, I've seen that information sweating the small stuff...making mountains out of mole hills.  

Riding bikes and four wheelers when young?  Well, Russell didn't and he was world champion.  Unless you have competed actively at a high level on a bike or four wheeler or car, it really doesn't apply.  Similar to track days.  Yeah, it will rid you of some sensory overload, but the stresses that you go though emotionally, physicially, and intenstinally in racing vs track days...there is virtually  no relationship whatsoever.

As for tons of racers every year...I see them come and go.  Steve, worry about you.  Easiest way to deal with it.  Afterall, none of those guys are going to ride your bike anyway...and you're probably not going to ride theirs...so, ride, have fun.  You have great basics, so worry about minor things.  How can you make the bike easier to ride?  How can this be done better?  Is there a better tire?  My arm hurts;  do I need to change my lever position?  That's what you need now.  You're past the basics.  

Yeah, you're riding a "superbike".  

[251am]

 Hey Steviebee, you've got mail.