Got the ICE bike

[Jeff]

Ever stop to think of how perfect things don't work out?!?

I was so stoked on getting this 03 RM-250 after riding a few ice bikes.  But inside, I really LONGED for a big 4-stroker.  The RM was just the perfect deal at the time.

Well, the deal fell through, and in its place came the new 04 CRF-450...  I'm like a kid in a candy store...

In the true fashion of a racer, the bike was pushed into the garage and thrown on stands and stripped of wheels before there was even oil put into it.   8)

The parts are all in, so the tires go out today to be studded.  Should be ready for ice time on 1/31...

[SliderPhoto]

Is it going to crash well? :o ;D

[Jeff]

Is it going to crash well? :o ;D

Doesn't every bike I touch?

[Super Dave]

Ya know, I am certified as a riding frame straightener...

I can crash that bike in...five corners.

I can crash that bike in...three corners.

Hmm, I can crash that bike in two corners.




CRASH THAT BIKE!

 ;D ;D

[bweber]

I have three dirt bikes.  A 2002 Husqvarna CR250 2-stroke, a 2003 Yamaha YZ250F and a 2003 YZ125.  I was thinking about making one of them into an ice bike (preferably the Husky) but I don't know what I need.  You mentioned that "all the parts were in".  I was just going to get some studded tires, but what else whould I need to go ice racing with one of my dirtbikes?
Any advice from those that have done it would be appreciated.

[Super Dave]

    ice

[Jeff]

Brian, all you need is ice and ice tires.  Have the tires made.  Do not try to make them yourself.  Just too much science to it.

As for "all the parts", I was referring to ice tires, studs, heavy duty tubes, liners, wraps.  And then the other stuff which you already probably have...  Bark busters, lift, etc...

LOL... Dave, that's funny...  If you recall, my RR ALMOST made it to the apex of turn 1 on my first race with it before I was run over and left for dead...

And just to show how "novice" I am to this, the other day I called my tire wraps "tire warmers".  Shane almost peed himself...   ;D

[am_#65_john_deere]

dont forget the ice fenders if your gonna race the bike. ::) ::)

[bweber]

Thanks for the info.  Do you think that Husky CR250 would be a decent ice bike?  It is the one I care about the least ;)
Are ice tires available through Tucker Rockey or Parts Unlimited, or do you go direct to the manufacturer?

[Jeff]

There is no commercial outlet for ice studded tires.

The tires themselves...  Depending on who builds them, generally they go with a dunlop front.  The rear is a kenda ice tire.  From there, they take street tires and cut them down so that they will fit inside of the MX tire as a liner.  Then studs are shot through the knobs into the liner.  They run about $550 pre-made from a guy in Chicago.  Or you can save about $100 by buying everything and having a local guy in Waukesha make them.

Either route, they are god awful expensive, but once you see them, you will realize that it is not something that's worth trying to make yourself.

If you're seriously interested, email me off the board (jeff@cbr600rr.com) or call me 262-993-5416 and I can get stuff ordered for you.  They take about 1.5 weeks to make...

And the CR250?  Perfect bike!  Here's that exact bike coming out of a corner 2 weeks ago...

[Super Dave]

Ok, you guys just have huge budgets...

The cool ice tires are great, but they are pricy.  

From poor land, we'd just buy a new set of cheap MX tires.  You'll want new ones so that you have more rubber to screw the studs into.  Stud them up with the "Gold Screws".  Don't go all the way through.  Front one's, you'll need the shorter studs.  Rear longer ones.  We'd usually put washers on the rear ones to shim them.  Seemed like we used 1000 on the front and like 650 on the back.

Yes, you can spend a bunch of money on cool tires, but if you're just playing...have fun and keep it cheap.  If you're gonna race, ok, the cool tires will have better traction.

[am_#65_john_deere]

you can find a good used set of cool tires 8)(thanks dave, i didnt realise they were called that) 8),
for anything betweem$200 and $300.

all the rich guys that change their tires every year or two will have a set for sale. 8) 8) 8) 8)

[Jeff]

Dave, how big of a bike are you on though?  I've seen some larger bikes with homemade stuff that shredded tires in no time, and spit screws during the first few laps before being totally ruined.

I was going to do exactly as you do, but saw stuff that made me think otherwise.  Plus, these should last me 2-3 years...  (i hope)  :D

[tzracer]

Jeff Fredette, of Fredette Racing Products has been making ice tires for a few years. Here is a link for more info.

http://www.dieseljo.com/IceRacing.html

[Protein Filled]

Fredette is "THE MAN" when it comes to buying ice tires. He is known as one of the best...

[cb186]

Fredette is "THE MAN" when it comes to buying ice tires. He is known as one of the best...

i agree. i built my own set at the begining of the season, rode on a set of Fredettes a couple weeks in, on someone elses bike, and ordered up a set the next week. the little ttr's and such might be ok with the gold screws, but try a 450 and it sucks.

[the_weggie_man]

Build the ice fenders even on play bikes! if you've ever seen someone get chewed up by a rear tire you would never run without the fenders.

[Super Dave]

Dave, how big of a bike are you on though?

At the time, RM250's, WR250's, and YZ490's.

And TT500 dirt tracker.  Non were my bikes.  Always back to the big piles of cash that I had.

[Jeff]

Fredette.  That's the guy in Chicago...  But I will tell you, Stu from Motosports Factory in Waukesha is making a DAMNED good tire for a bit less...

Dunno...  Since I'm amateur, I'm trying to cut corners as best I can, but still have good enough stuff to last.

Damn Dave...  Big bikes like that with short studs...  That's sliding :)

Ice fenders...  Yes...  Don't have them yet, but will.  For what it's worth, I don't go with the typical dirt gear that I see everyone else wear.  I use my old non-vented leathers complete with back protector and then throw a farm & fleet black insulated jump suit over that.

If I fall through, I'm pretty much Fscked since I've got about 50lbs of gear on...  But I stay warm!  ;D

[Thorny]

Dave in the pic of you on my TTR you have, the bike had 1000 in the front and 900 or so in the rear. As far as cheaper, my time putting them in was about 2.5 hrs. (and I am fast with a cordless too!) and cost on those screws is about $100. This year I had the guy who sets all the AMA ice events up here make me some for $300. Now I have a set of "ice only's" and the set of dirt tires that were on it. That's not really any different in cost but the darn tires are ten times better. By him using a 1" long screw in the rear and 7/8" in the front into an inside liner, thats compared to me using all 5/8" just into a nobby,  the tire has allot less flex in it making the grip UNBELIEVABLE!!!

[tzracer]

Many of the people I have heard of that are making ice tires are basically copying the Fredette tires. The keys are location and angle of the screws.

Tires such as Fredette's make a difference even on bikes like XR100s.

[Super Dave]

So, here the question is begged, and this would probably be a deciding factor on what anyone should do.

What's the purpose?

Road racing has an incredible amount of traction.

Dirt track racing has a WHOLE lot less traction.

The skill of being able to feel for traction is a skill that dirt trackers tune very well when compared to us, road racers.

Ice riding has a lot more traction than dirt track.

Tires will make a difference in traction.  Being smooth and gentle, yet quick, with less traction is a lot harder than with more.  If you're skill building...well, they do water down the track at American Supercamp.  That makes it slick.  You've got to be smooth.

[tzracer]

Professional ice tires do not really make it easier, just raises the bar. You can learn the same lessons with any tire, the professional tires just have a higher limit.

What tends to happen is one person in a group of riders buys them. The tires work much better than everyone else's. So to keep up with your friends, everybody gets them (or copies them).

[Thorny]

Well rider school instructors, no one asked or commented about dirt tracking? So back to the question, get the better tires, reason- you can use them for a few years, sell them with your bike, not lose nobbies every other time you ride, switch them to your standard nobbies when the ice fades, put new screws back in when they get dull and not lose the samee screw after 2 laps...........bottom line, stop analizing every damn thing and trying to show everyone how freekin smart you are and just say, "Just ride the f^cker!"

[Super Dave]

Professional ice tires do not really make it easier, just raises the bar. You can learn the same lessons with any tire, the professional tires just have a higher limit.

More traction..."raises the bar".

You can learn limits with anything, yes, but with the traction limit lower, it's not as easy.

Case in point...

Just about anyone that can reasonably ride a motorcycle can be a track day rider or even a road racer.  There is so much traction available, mistakes can be covered by excess traction.  Someone can have really poor habits, yet they can still get away with most things.

We've got it easy with so much traction.  You can learn the same things road racing, too, but the bar is so high the margin of safety becomes so tight...

On the flip side, dirt track.  Mistakes are amplified as traction is so low.  Add to that short practice sessions and heats that, if you don't do well, will leave you on the side lines watching the race you wanted to enter.  Some riders try dirt track, but don't go much further as they don't develop the proper skills to be better.  

As we continue to add more and more traction, a rider can go faster and faster.  The traction can cover mistakes in technique.  If you have better technique, you can ride closer to the envelope of traction all the time.  

FEEL.  And it's that feel for traction that sets the fastest riders apart from others.

Same goes for the bike.  KR always trained his guys on XR100's.  Similar aspect to traction.  If you're riding a big MX bike, it's pretty easy to slide around.  But to learn how to slide a bike that makes 6HP...a rider has to learn how to feel the envelope of traction again.  

 

[Super Dave]

"Just ride the f^cker!"

You should have been here on Saturday....
 :P

One name...PURK.   ;D

[Thorny]

He told me he might come up for my "1st annual Ride At Your Own Risk" ice race. How did he ride on scale of 1 to 10? Was it his first time?
 Seems like he is pretty excited to do it, so thats cool.

[Super Dave]

Not bad.  You know how it is...road racer sitting on the wrong side of the bike, foot out too early.  But not bad.  I'd give him a 6 or so.  Got better as we rode.

[tzracer]

For ice riding to help with roadracing, I have found that predictable traction is more important than low or high traction, predictable traction helps to develop the feel for traction. I am not saying that you have to go out and buy professional ice tires, I don't have any. I have found that some home made ice tires vary from lap to lap, probably due to inconsistant placement of screws and random angles. If you take care in making your own tires and just don't rush the job, they can work very well. But as you say Dave, racers race, so just one person showing up with Fredette tires will cause other racers to want to have them.

[Thingy]

Do you think that Husky CR250 would be a decent ice bike?  It is the one I care about the least ;)

Care about the least?...  You are heartless.  How can you not like a Husky. :(

Maybe you're not heartless.  Maybe AFRAID is the better term.  Hey Jeff, did you know that he nicknamed the 250 the 'Devil Bike'.  He can't handle a bike that bites back. ;)

[Super Dave]

Maybe AFRAID is the better term.

We used to ice ride my friend's '74 Maico 250...

You ever feel an old Maico clutch lever?
 ;D

[bweber]

Let's see.  I have ridden the bike less than a dozen times and have broken my right collarbone on it twice.  IT is the "Devil Bike" because I think it is possessed!  Now I just let my firends ride it while I stick to the Yamahas.  Hitchcock and Hanson are pretty good at destroying pipes on it, but they can't ride it for sh^t. ;D

[Jeff]

Maybe you're not heartless.  Maybe AFRAID is the better term.  Hey Jeff, did you know that he nicknamed the 250 the 'Devil Bike'.  He can't handle a bike that bites back. ;)

Hey man, I don't blame him...  Anthony Connor has an RM250 that I won't go near...  I was pretty scared to consider it as an ice bike, but the controlled lack of traction was what I looked at when I was considering the RM.  As things worked out, I got the 4 stroker so I should be a little more controllable on the dry.

2-stroke 250's are death by twist of the wrist...  Them things are lethal, ruthless and downright mean...

[am_#65_john_deere]

i'm gonna kick your ass on the ice next weekend ;D ;D ;D 8) 8) 8)

[Thingy]

2-stroke 250's are death by twist of the wrist...  Them things are lethal, ruthless and downright mean...

Amen Brutha.  I admit it.  You are right.  The only way that I can ride it is by only using 1/8 throttle. ;D

[am_#65_john_deere]

them little 250's are fun,
but if you disrespect them, they will spit you off.
gotta luv-em and you gotta ride them hard.
mine has spat me many times, but i still luv it.

i have a crf150 as well and it's a blast too.
i bought it for the wife, but she is pregnant :o :o now so i ride it ;D ;D ;D ;D

[Jeff]

Anto...  one lap on the four-fiddy and you'll have that RM up for sale...

[Zac]

2-stroke 250's are death by twist of the wrist...  Them things are lethal, ruthless and downright mean...

Yep, that's why I dumped mine for a CR500  ;D

-z.