Re: AMA Pros at club races?

[G_2_G]

If you don't like it don't race plain and simple.  Or maybe you need to practice a little harder so your not as slow.

[Super Dave]

Where would you draw the line as an AMA PRO?  There are AMA Pro guys that don't have things handed to them;  they have to pay to get to the track, etc.  I've been there.

Racing is not necessarily about a level playing field.  If it was, we would all show up with our forks, rear shock, and a set of carbs.  Place it on a sealed engine in a chassis, add balast for an equal weight, then qualify, and race.

Dale Quarterley WON an AMA National Superbike event over the best of them.  He was leasing bikes from Muzzy, yes, but he still had to do the work.  I know, because I helped.

Indeed, the current state of much racing has gotten a bit out of control.  $40,000 endurance bikes for Team Vesrah, extra wheels, shock warmers, and the like.  But as an older guy, I'm still reasonably competitive in Unlimited GP on a GSXR600 with no help in addition to all the people that I am responsible for helping during a weekend.

[Admin]

In my opinion, letting AMA PRO's race at club level is equivalent to letting CCS Experts race at Novice level.  If you join the Expert ranks, you forfeit your right to cherrypick the novices.  If you join the Pro ranks, you forfeit your right to cherrypick club racers.

Shawn

[TreyBone]

What about the guys who race CCS full seaon and just happen to hold an AMA licence so they can run in Pro Thunder events with an SV.  Does that mean I should be excluded just because I run one AMA race a year?  I think not.  If your bike is legal to run, then run it, beat everyone and then go home with the money,  IT IS ALL FAIR>

[GAMEDIC]

I'm with shawn on that...they desided to move to pro so they should not race club...if you were a novice you would not want an expert to be on the grid beside you going for the same prize...if it happend someone would come and raise hell about it...but i will say if they do race with us...they should not be given a place nor should they be given points and let them race as much as they want besides it's just practice for them anyway...

[Super Dave]

It's all really sticky.

If there were money for someone that got an AMA Pro license, I can understand not allowing someone to race.  But if you have an expert license, you can pretty much do an AMA Pro race.

There has always been overlap.  

I have some pictures from 1989 when Scott Russell showed up at Blackhawk Farms with his Yoshimura 600 Katana for a Suzuki Cup weekend.  Many of us ran AMA pro races, and we just saw it as an opportunity to gauge ourself against Scott, and as an opportunity to try and beat him.

He just needed the money.

So, who is the local offender that is making everyone so angry?

[W3Racing]

I think anyone should be allowed to race that pays the entry fee, but I think there should be a reasonable range in lap times among competitors.  If you are going to limit guys that are "AMA Pro", when are we going to have minimum limits to eliminate slower riders?  How would CCS make the distinction beteen a Pro rider and a club rider?  There are several fast club experts that also compete in AMA and Formula USA Races.  I think the rider makes up 99% of the difference in lap times; equipment only makes a minor difference.  If you disagree, here are a couple of examples:

I did consistent 1:15's at blackhawk on a 99hp f3.  I bought a hooters suzuki 750 making 140 rwhp and was only able to get into the 1:13's.  

At Road America, I was only able to get down to low 1:20's, high 1:19's.  I loaned my bike to Matt Wait for the formula USA Races and with no outside help he turned a 1:15 in practice and did consistent low 1:14's in the race.  It's pretty humbling and amazing to watch somebody ride your same bike 4 seconds faster/lap.  Ouch!  and I am a top expert competitor......Matt hauls ass!

So I think the biggest difference is the amount of experience and track time.  There is no substitute for seat time.

Brent

[Super Dave]

So I think the biggest difference is the amount of experience and track time.  There is no substitute for seat time.

Brent

Track time is not necessarily relevant to speed.  Look at those that have race for a long time or have done every track day known to man.  There are still others that go faster, maybe much faster.

Eyesight and reaction time play an important role.  Additionally, motivation and confidence.  

Matt is a gifted rider with good eyesight and reaction time.  He's motivated and confident.  How much time did it take for him to go faster than you?  Those can just be things that he can do that your body can't.  

Yes, you go fast at a level, but sometimes, beyond that, your body is unable to do the right things.

Personally, I do not have depth perception because my brain shut off my right eye when I was young.  I don't know what depth perception is to all of you, but I don't have the same capability of judging distances that normal people do.

Because of that, there is only so much I can do.  I have compensated through out my life, but there is no way that I can change that.

Experience is another thing too.  Doing lap after lap, is just that.  One lap, one lap, one lap.  Matt was an experienced dirt tracker.  That's a rough sport.  Very little practice, heats, semi's, and either you make it or you go home.  You have to learn quick, or you go home.  Because of that experience, Matt learned how to go fast.  

Compare that to just putting in laps at a track day or even just a regular practice session.

[spyderchick]

Let's face facts here. Racing is a business. We'd all love to make oodles of money off this business, whether you race, promote, or sell a product or service.

Fast guys will be fast. In a business model, will the following scenario fly?Let's kick off the guys who are fast. Bump the fast amatuers up to expert and bump the fast experts up to pro. What about the slow riders? Don't let them compete, they're in the way. You've just subjectively eliminated people who pay the bills that we all share as racers. Track rental, staffing, saftey crews, medical, security does not come free.

In the mid-west, we have a number of riders who hold AMA Pro licences. They are fast. They win races. They can and have been beat by club racers at their home track. However, we are still a club, and we all share the burden of paying the bills through those fees that a few always seem to complain about. Having an open and flexible policy will keep racing within some realm of financial attainablility for the weekend racer.

[oh344ccs]

They should be able to race anywhere, anytime, however you can't compare the fast experts, that hold AMA pro status to the full or semi factory riders.  Guys that get paid to race full time, with full time mechanics, and such shouldn't get club purses.  Most top pros, will only be doing club races for track time, they get that without the purse.  Fast experts with pro cards could probably describe most of the top 5 or 10 at a club race with good turnout.  These are the guys who can use the money, and earn it .

[Super Dave]

But you're drawing a line.  

Again, there are guys that need the money.  Brian Livengood actually finished in the top ten overall in the AMA Superbike series.  He doesn't have any money.  He can use any money he can get.  Do you cut him off?

Really, if you've got a license, you should use it.

The bigger factory names can't do club races because of risk.  If they get all wadded up at a club race because of what they, or someone else does, they don't make any money.

Additionally, competition is always good.  The AMA Pros are experts, too.  Why the whining?

[roadracer797]

It sounds to me that most of you dont want pros in club races with the exception of Mr. Dave, well I am one of the slow guys who race and I don't get in the way of the fast guys I ride my race and you know what when I'm in a race with the fast experts they teach me about lines that I would not have seen if it wasn't for them. The team chalenge is where slow guys and fast guys ride on the track at the same time and this past year I got a chance to be passed by some very fast riders but it also made me think that allI have to do is pick up the pace and then I'll get fast sooner or later. Oh by the way Dave I would really like to take your school next year because I have seen how fast you are and with what you ahve with no depth perception you could teach me a lot, and yes you have passed me on the track a few times.