2 ?? on 600rr

[WebCrush]

Just as a point of note:

4&6 is a GMD based shop, but there are many more.  I would suggest finding the closest one to your area before deciding to drive to Michigan (or where-ever those guys are) :D

Also--I don't think Dan Kyle has his machine anymore.  It was a cheap knockoff of the GMD setup, almost to the 'T' but due to its cheap parts, the level of accuracy was far from where it needed to be.

[Jeff]

Also--I don't think Dan Kyle has his machine anymore.  It was a cheap knockoff of the GMD setup, almost to the 'T' but due to its cheap parts, the level of accuracy was far from where it needed to be.

Find me any piece of data which will support this...

[Super Dave]

Well, yeah, Jim you want to pipe in here...

GMD places have their parameters.  But 4&6 has more actual experience in setting up bikes.  So, although some GMD places might do it one way, Jim might do it a bit differently based on all of his knowledge.  Back to the AMA Supersport win.  Who's got 'em?

Jef4y, I've heard that too, but I don't have info on it.  Similar to GMD, Dan Kyle sold his set up.  It has paramters for use.  So, I would assume that others are either using it as per the instructions, which to the best of my knowledge bases the geometry for all bikes on some specific final parameters.  

But regardless, I'm back to that experience thing.  How many lap records has Larry Denning posted in the past few years?  Larry goes to 4&6 because he knows that he can get what he needs for set up.  You can have all the tools, but if you don't have the big picture knowledge base and the experiences that you used them in...

[WebCrush]

What type of data do you require?  Kyle basically attempted to reverse engineer the GMD machine during his stay at Erion, but got come core pieces essentially 'wrong'.  I'm not at liberty to discuss what they are, as Jim said, that would just be giving away the Colonel's secret recipe.

Point is moot though as the ability to find Kyle's machine have dried up including any links on his website even mentioning it. (aside from the one MDracing already purchased)

Lets put it another way--if the machine was just as accurate as GMD, provided the same functionality, and was a cheaper alternative--we'd still see it being sold and a lot of racers would be thanking KyleUSA rather than GMD.

Fact is (could this be construed as data)--we don't see this.

The complete lack of any mention of the unit on his site tells me that either he realized it was a flawed and hopeless unit--or the patent holder for the GMD system (Greg McDonald) legally forced him to stop.

[Jeff]

The experience piece I wouldn't even begin to argue.  However, that wasn't ever my point.  

And for reference, all I'm looking for is data.  I'm not saying the KG system is any better or worse than the GMD system.  All I'm trying to do is find out if ANYONE can prove this to me.  To date, no one has provided any facts to support their claims.

And please, don't go into the winning records of Denning/Rosno/Janish/etc...  This is not what I'm looking for.

Yes, it is fact that the machine isn't listed on Dan's website.  However, why it's gone is 100% speculation.  Perhaps it didn't sell because the margins were too low and GMD dominated the industry.  Perhaps it's down because they are making website changes.  It could be any one of a million reasons.

Take the human side out (for now), and show me measurement for measurement the differences between GMD and Kyle-Gordis.  

There are 3 basic pieces to a measurement system.  The theodolite, a slide rack, and the calculation software.  Out of these, the only one which could be patented would be the software, so I don't think there would be any legal basis for GMD to make KG stop selling.  However, this is again, MY speculation and I'd like to just stick to facts here.

Dave, your point is very well registered that Jim and 4&6 have provided setup for many winning riders.  I'm not asking for reputation or anyone as a person.  I'm talking equipment to equipment...

Of which, I'll ask again...  Can anyone share facts with me that the GMD system is more accurate than the KG system?

[Super Dave]

I can't give you an answer.

I do know a guy in Australia that sets his H2 road racer with a H1 frame very similar to the geometry of my R6.  He measures by hand.  I think Jim Raashid could come up with the correct numbers he wanted as long as he had a measuring tool.  That's what the GMD set up gave him...probably easier and more consistent vs measuring by hand.

Jim will have to imply the rest.

[WebCrush]

if you can patent the process of online 'one click purchases', i can't imagine why you couldn't patent a system for the use of measuring motorcycles by incorporating three distinct units (theodolite, rack, and software).

In order to provide side by side data to compare, what would require both a GMD machine and a Kyle machine.  So, unless someone has both, or some plans to take their bike to both places AND both places are willing to hand over the data coming from the systems--you'll never have the info you are looking for.

I spoke in length to Peter Kates, the Boston GMD shop and he explained to me the problems with the Kyle machine, which unfortunately, I can't go into here, but they sounded very very valid.

And again, you can't debunk what doesn't exist.  :D

[Jeff]

Okay.  I'll let it go at my knowledge that there is no proof to the statement of "GMD is more accurate".

Thanks guys.  I'm really not trying to be a jerk (believe it or not)  :-*  :-*

[Super Dave]

I'm with you Jeff.

You're not being a jerk.  But there isn't anyone that can really answer the question.

So.... :P

[Super Dave]

I'm sick I tell you...

Posts: 3000

[am_#65_john_deere]

very sick indeed ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

[Dan_Kyle]

Webcrush,

Please give me a call and I will be happy to tell you why my machine is surperior to the GMD. 831 394-1330
There is no patent on the GMD as it uses technology that has been used for the last 80 years. Greg Mcdonald does have a patent on another form of measurement machine, it describes the one traxxion sell to a T. It was done before the current machine, it did not work then, and it does not work now. Check it out the patent number is 5148377.
 The three main advantages my machine has are:
A straight flat truer platform to start with, the GMD is not.
Easier to learn and use software, that you can also go back and remeasure any single measurement, the GMD is based on DOS, and if a error is made you start over.
Accurate and repeatable targets, that anyone can use and get the same measurement, try using a GMD with two different people measureing and you will get two different measurements, let alone ever getting the targets exactly the same twice.

Hope to hear from you. Dan Kyle 831 394-1330