Ultra-Light Superbike Class question

[Suicide_Blonde]

The R&Rs state that "Twin Cylinder, liquid cooled, pre-1999 model year, up to 700cc" may run, does that exclude the Suzuki SV650?

[Woofentino Pugrossi]

Unless you have a 98 SV650. ;D ;D And I dont think they were made then.

[mw]

Is the Aprilia Cup legal?

[duc995@aol.com]

It would appear so...and will be kicking some major butt!  I wonder if they also allow TZ 250s...can't remember the exact rule wording though.

[Super Dave]

GP bikes and the non street legal Aprilia RS250's (the cup bikes) were never brought in for street use.  That's a big part of "superbike" that it is a based on a productiion street bike.  There are exceptions.

[Zac]

Superbike rules state that the bike must be street legal somewhere in the WORLD, whereas supersport have to be street in North America, thus the Aprilia RS250, which is street legal in Europe, is Superbike legal.  Plus, the RS was legal for Middleweight Sportsman, so it should be legal for the replacement class, ULWSB.

-z.

[Super Dave]

Ok, so my H1 fits there now?  No LWSportsman, right?

[Zac]

Ultra-lightweight superbike:

Two-stroke, air cooled, unlimited displacement.

6.3.1B. The frame must be as originally supplied by the manufacturer on the approved model. Strengthening gussets or
tubes may be added. Only brackets or tubes not supporting suspension, engine, or drive line components may be
removed. Swing arms may be modified or replaced and rear shocks may be replaced or relocated.

So as long as you haven't messed with the frame too much (I'd say the spirit of that rule is keeping the swingarm pivot and engine mounts in the same location and the stock head angle) your H1 would be legal in ULWSB

-z.

[Super Dave]

We've moved the swingarm pivot.  I don't think that is against the rules.  It is still the stock frame.  Different swingarm...yeah.  Really as long as it has frame numbers, and resembles the stock chassis, you can probably do just about anything.

[CCS]

Super Dave "21",

That thing willl never be finished, you've been talking about it for at least three years....come on, it's really just a figment of your imagination, isn't it?    ;D

Yes, the Aprilia RS 250 and FZR400 are the bikes to have for this class.

[Super Dave]

LOL, seems like it.

I "won" some triple clamps on e-bay in November that I needed to increase trail....still don't have them.  

Mark Stiles is making the new axle and rear axle adjusters for me...but then he had to have back surgery...(I think they just cut him open and put in YamahaBond 5).

Some day, Kevin...mabye...I hope... ;D

[NSR250 Racer]

I understand the Aprilia RS250 was street legal in Europe (and other countries?). Does that mean the race only Aprilia Cup bikes legally imported to N.A. can run in ULW Superbike?  regards, Scott

[tzracer]

According to the rule book, any bike that could be purchased through a dealer that was/is street legal in any country is legal.

A TZR or NSR would be legal. They could be bought from a dealer in Japan and were street legal in Japan. The rules do not say that YOU had to purchase the bike through a regular dealer, only that the bike was/is available through a dealer (via normal commercial channels).

Proof of compliance is the reaponsibility of the competitor. Give CCS a call and ask specifically about your bike.

You can download a copy of the rulebook

http://www.formulausa.com/forms

click on FUSA Competition Rule Book

[Zac]

A TZR or NSR would be legal. They could be bought from a dealer in Japan and were street legal in Japan.

A TZR is legal, BUT with last year's sportsman rules you had to run TZR cylinders and not TZ cylinders, as many often do.  I saw a TZR show up for a race that by the way it passed SVs on the straights, had to be running TZ cylinders, heads, pipes, carbs and ECU.  It looks like with the new ULWSB rules, only the TZR engine cases need to be used (no mention of cylinders or heads) so a TZR/TZ ( the power of a TZ with 50 extra lbs) could legally dominate the class.
Won't be too fair against all the singles and such.

-z.

[CCS854]

First post, so please bear with me  ::)  A literal reading of the rulebook would  indicate that my '97 Triumph III retro-fitted w/carbs is NOT legal for CCS Thunderbikes, but would BE legal for UltraLW Superbike and therefore LW  Superbike.  ANyone actually know what classes this thing is legal for...haven't heard back from Kevin Elliott yet, and I want to get ready for VIR in April.

I have a 'SuperSingle' ready just in case ;D

Thanks,
Eric Mercer

CCS EX 854

[CCS854]

Wot th' heck is: I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

[spyderchick]

Wot th' heck is: I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

YaBB is the code used for this bulletin board. Click on profile at the top of the page when you are logged in to change what it says there under personal text

[Eric Kelcher]

You better check with Kevin but if the Triumph is under 900cc then I think you are right.

[tzracer]

Just because a bike is legal for ultra lightwieght SB does not make it legal for lightweight SB.

ULWSB is a combination of sportsman classes, not all the bikes are LWSB legal. No mention of triples in LWSB. The Triumph appears to be legal for MWSB.

[CCS854]

Well, here's the final word from K.E.  I CAN run my '97 Speed III w/carbs  in ULW/LW Superbike, but not Thunderbike!  It will be a while before it's ready, so I'll be riding the thumpers in the meanrime.  

Look fir the red MuZ at VIR.

Eric Mercer
CCS EX 854


Hello Eric,

The way the rules are now, your bike is indeed legal for the mentioned SuperBike classes, but not for ThunderBike...

...We will see you at VIR.

Kevin Elliott
Director of Operations-Road Race
Clear Channel Entertainment - Motor Sports
2501 Parkview Drive #105
Fort Worth, Texas  76102
817-332-4822 Ext. 103
817-332-5633 Fax

[FTZ591]

This sucks - I am going to get crushed this year...

Just when I got the SuperSingle sorted out!!

Guess I need to invest in a Speed Triple (I still dont get why a triple is legal for ULWSB).

What no Ducati 805 people yet?

[Zac]

Hey FTZ, don't worry too much, it all matters who shows up.  A little single like a worked Duc Supermono could show up and wipe up all the triples and FZR560s.  Or even a Tigcraft Midimoto, which have show to run with 250GP bikes.

I'll have my CR500 out for it's first CCS race at Vegas next weekend.  I just hope there's enough people out there to have some racing.

-z.

[CCS854]

This sucks - I am going to get crushed this year...

Just when I got the SuperSingle sorted out!!

Guess I need to invest in a Speed Triple (I still dont get why a triple is legal for ULWSB).

What no Ducati 805 people yet?

Yeah, it would seem that this bike would be at home in Thunderbike, but apparently they don't want to mess with that class.  I just picked this one up real cheap w/o a title to use as a trackday bike then started thinking about mounting the old flatslides from my '95 triple and using it as a backup for the MZ.
 
I wouldn't worry too much about the Triumph...it'd be pretty expensive for a sane person to get one just to beat EXs, etc (of course, this doesn't rule me out ;))  I honestly think my MZ will outrun it on most tracks except Road A & Daytona.  It's much better sorted and has more power/weight than I can afford to get out of the Triumph...remember, it needs to be the T509 motor (885cc), not the current 955cc version.

[FTZ591]

I wouldn't worry too much about the Triumph...it'd be pretty expensive for a sane person to get one just to beat EXs, etc (of course, this doesn't rule me out ;))  I honestly think my MZ will outrun it on most tracks except Road A & Daytona.  It's much better sorted and has more power/weight than I can afford to get out of the Triumph...remember, it needs to be the T509 motor (885cc), not the current 955cc version.

Are you running Summit this weekend?  If so and my bike runs right I will see you out on the ULWSB grid ;)

[CCS854]

FTZ
  Just had surgery today on L. hand and R. ulnar nerve to fix some old  race injuries so it'll be a f ew weeks before I c an  ride...look for me at Summit at thend of May.  Good luck :)

[wera331]

how dose a xb9 get to be ultra light weight?they come stock with about 100hp. they out power everything out there.I bet buell likes beating old hawks ,mzs , fzrs and other old sportsman class motorcycles. I guess a win is a win.just so I get this right the same buells Barnes and others race in ama formula extream are legal for ultralight weight superbike.dose this sound funny to anyone eles?

[PJ]

XB9 was legal for the Middleweight Sportsman Class, which is what the new ULSB class rules follow.

Also legal are RS 250/316s, Ducati 800s, Hawk 700s, FZR4/5s, 900 Triumph carbed, etc.

Tough for a single to compete in this crowd. But then there weren't too many singles racing to begin with...

As for the XB9 (stock rwhp about 80 with a pipe) being the same bike that Barney and Ciccotto race in AMA FX...hardly. Those are highly modified bikes with larger than 984cc displacement and big hp.

I've raced the class (MWSp and now ULSB) for the past two seasons. The XB9 is competitive. But so are the Ducatis, Aprilias, Hawks and FZRs. The bottom line is that this class needs more bikes, not less.

[duc995@aol.com]

The Buell also has the added '007' features like smoke screens, spraying oil and throwing projectiles (ie nuts and bolts) ...albiet, not on command... that add to it's ability to fend off the competition! ;D

[PJ]

I won the F-USA GT Lights Team Challenge national championship and three regional championships with my Buell XB9 last year and the only thing that ever ejected itself without warning all season was...

...me.

[Super Dave]

Yeah, and they can actually run inside the top ten at AMA Formula Extreme races...Yeah, it ain't Supersport, but it's all the AMA has for them.

Not bad for air cooling and four valves...total.

[CCS854]

...Tough for a single to compete in this crowd. But then there weren't too many singles racing to begin with...  

...I've raced the class (MWSp and now ULSB) for the past two seasons. The XB9 is competitive. But so are the Ducatis, Aprilias, Hawks and FZRs. The bottom line is that this class needs more bikes, not less.

I just did a WERA race at VIR, and we had 10 or 11 entries in Clubman Expert for a regular regional event,  and except for the 'modern' thumpers, most could run in some vintage class also.    

When I first heard from CCS that they were eliminating SuperSingles & LW Sportsman, it sounded like they were simply combining the two classes...no big deal, since they both came out of the original Sportsman class to begin with (my historical perspective only goes back to '96).  Sportsman was pretty much CCS's version of WERA's Clubman, before they created HW Sprtsmn in '97 & later MW Sprtsmn.

It wasn't until I read this forum that I realized what classes were actually included.  Bottom line would appear to be that CCS is going to have FEWER bikes in this class, as all the old Sportsman bikes (LW Sprtsmn/S. Singles) now have no class to race competitively in.  It seems unlikely that I'll bother to race my old LW Sportsman bikes w/CCS since I'd have to beat F-USA Thunderbikes/riders.

Ironically, I can run my carbed Triumph against EX500, et al, but can't enter it in Thunderbikes.  Strange class structure indeed...looks like the Buell lobby prevailed here ;)

[PJ]

I suspect it's more a function of people racing unexpected and wierdo bikes than anything else.

The Middleweight Sportsman rules (now Ultralight Superbike) allowed air-cooled two valve push rods up to 1050cc. When the XB 984 came out in 2003, it fit the class, not the other way around.

I doubt there's any conspiracy to keep your Triumph out of Thunderbike, just a rules oversight on a rare motorcycle.

BTW, you are not alone. Duane Francis rode a Triumph in UL Superbike at the Barber F-USA/CCS race.

[Super Dave]

I suspect it's more a function of people racing unexpected and wierdo bikes than anything else.

Yeah, baby...

Unlimited air cooled two strokes...

Motor is being delivered to Blackhawk...

Rear axle is almost done...


 ;D

[PJ]

Motor is being delivered to Blackhawk...

Rear axle is almost done...

Excellent! Just bring it baby...

[CCS854]

...Idoubt there's any conspiracy to keep your Triumph out of Thunderbike, just a rules oversight on a rare motorcycle.

BTW, you are not alone. Duane Francis rode a Triumph in UL Superbike at the Barber F-USA/CCS race.

On the subject of conspiracy theories..., "in reality, there's usually less to things than meets the eye".  The Triumph is only an example of how oddly these classes are structured...it's just a trackday bike so far, but the MuZ was a long-term, big buck project to run in CCS LW Sprtsmn, Super Singles, WERA CLubman & DSS.
 
Nah, I just think the result of the present class structure will be to push the real 'Ultra' L/W guys away from CCS.  Maybe the total grids will pick up as a result of some Thunderbike bikes having another class to run, probably not.  It's kind of sad to see the old Sportsman/LW SPrtsmn/Super Singles bikes run off, but it makes no sense to run an old LW Sprtsmn bike with CCS if you have another series available.  

I've enjoyed racing w/CCS for several yrs, but I can't see renewing my license if there's no class to run in.  Like I said earlier, it'll be great if CCS restores some version of the old Sportsman class, but I'm sure not going to sell my MuZ after what I put in it to build a racebike for the current U/LW Sprtsmn class, when I can run it competitively in WERA & AHRMA as it is.  

[CCS854]

...I just did a WERA race at VIR, and we had 10 or 11 entries in Clubman Expert for a regular regional event,  and except for the 'modern' thumpers, most could run in some vintage class also...

Correction: there were 10-11 bikes in Clubman Ex & Nov combined at WERA/VIR, not Clubman Ex as I stated...my mistake :'(

[Zac]

This year in the southwest region I have never seen any bikes race ULWSB that would have an unfair advantage over the singles.  So far we've had me on the CR500, my wife on her MZ, an RZ350, and a Hawk as the regulars.  I've also see a couple other motards, a TZR250, an FZ600, and an Aprillia 50 with a 150cc MX engine stuffed in it.  No one out here must have a Buell or an 800cc Duc to come clean up the class.

I think a well built single can take on pretty much any bike that actually is built to the rules of ULWSB.  Basically the intent is to have a class for all the bikes slower than an SV, and I've seen plenty of singles mix it up with SVs.  If some really fast firebolts or Triumphs are showing up in your region and have an unfair advantage, write a letter to Kevin to propose a rules change.

I just want to see more people in this class.  Racing the little bikes is so much fun!

-z.

[PJ]

I have never seen any bikes race ULWSB that would have an unfair advantage over the singles.

Since when is ULSB considered a singles class? The rules for the class are the same as the old Middleweight Sportsman Superbike rules. In the Midwest region, we have a farily healthy contingent of Aprila 250/316s, Ducati 750/800s, Kaw EX 500s, Buell XB9s, FZR 400/560s, Hawk 700s, etc. If you rule out all the bikes that would have an "unfair" advantage over the singles, guess what? There wouldn't be ANY bikes in the class...

[CCS854]

...Basically the intent is to have a class for all the bikes slower than an SV, and I've seen plenty of singles mix it up with SVs.  If some really fast firebolts or Triumphs are showing up in your region and have an unfair advantage, write a letter to Kevin to propose a rules change.

Zac, mixing it up occasionally w/a stock motored SV isn't exactly the same as mounting a championship effort against a (former) HeavyWeight SPrtsmn bike on a (former) LW Sprtsmn bike.  The bikes that were incorporated into U L/W Sprtsmn from MW Sprtsmn started out in HW Sprtsmn (now T-bikes) before the MW class was created. Obviously a built Buell, Duc 750, Tri 900, FZR 400/560 or Hawk for that matter has an advantage over a thumper, EX, GS, etc.  At the Summit Point round of F-USA/CCS, the first 4 of 7 in U L/W Sprbike (EX) were (former) MW Sprtsmn bikes.  First LW SPrtsmn bike was last yr's champion on an MZ in 5th place.  

I just want to see more people in this class.  Racing the little bikes is so much fun! -z.

I want to see more people too, but in what class?  Do we want some version of the old Sportsman class back, or do we subsidize this class by 'filling the grid' with non-competitve bikes.  Yes, it's fun to be the underdog...it would be fun to 'bump-up' to this class, but to bump-up first you have to have a class to bump FROM ;)  

I plan to contact Kevin, but right now I'm talking to the guys who were in the old LW Sprtsmn/SSingles classes to see what the interest is.  Would you like our old class back, or are you happy being a permanent underdog?  

[CCS854]

Since when is ULSB considered a singles class? The rules for the class are the same as the old Middleweight Sportsman Superbike rules. In the Midwest region, we have a farily healthy contingent of Aprila 250/316s, Ducati 750/800s, Kaw EX 500s, Buell XB9s, FZR 400/560s, Hawk 700s, etc. If you rule out all the bikes that would have an "unfair" advantage over the singles, guess what? There wouldn't be ANY bikes in the class...

You're right PJ, this isn't a 'singles'class, nor is it an EX, GS, RZ 350, etc class...that was eliminated for this year.  :'(  It's the old MW Sportsman class, which was carved out of the old HW Sportsman class (now Thunderbikes).  This yr CCS took 3 classes and combined them into 1...problem is that the bikes from LW Sportsman got shoved into the same class with the MW Sportsman bikes.  Good for the MWs, not good for the LWs.  

No one's been talking about 'ruling out' anybody, or eliminating anything, but I have been advocating retaining one Sportsman class that combines the LW Sportsman/Super Singles bikes.  

[EM JAY]

There wouldn't be ANY bikes in the class...

Hey!  I'm still runnin the MZ in ULSB, don't you see me as you lap me?  ;D ;)

[Zac]

First LW SPrtsmn bike was last yr's champion on an MZ in 5th place.  

By saying singles I didn't necessarly mean MZs.  In the old supersingles class did the average MZ have much chance against a Duc Supermono, or a Tigcraft Midimoto, or a Woods/Rotax in a TZ 250 frame?  These were all legal for SuperSingles and in the right hands (not mine) could do rather well against the "faster" ULWSB bikes.

One downsde of little bikes is that a power advantage can make a real difference.  Give someone on a liter bike 10 more HP and unless they are a pro, they aren't going to go any faster.  Give an extra 3 HP to someone on a 60 HP bike and they can put that HP to work and make a difference in lap times.  In that way ULWSB is more of a tuner's class than the more mainstream classes, every little bit counts.

-z.

[PJ]

 Hey!  I'm still runnin the MZ in ULSB, don't you see me as you lap me?  ;D ;)

Sorry EM JAY...I shouldn't have said any...

Actually, I think there are a couple of MZs out there, no?

I love the diversity of the ULSB class. And I certainly understand the desire of singles riders to have a class they can be competitive in. Maybe they should allow you guys in the 125 race? There's not too many of them around anymore either. Except at Barber...