Everyone please help...NEW FUEL RULES!

[WebCrush]

why not just drop the fuel rules altogether.

Since nobody is interested in protesting or enforcing, let any fuel be legal.  If somebody wants to spend crazy amounts of money on hard to tune types of fuel, let em.

[Super Dave]

If gasoline isnt allowed? Can we use JP-4 jet fuel? ;D

I use premium pump gas (93 oct usually) because I CANT AFFORD $5+/gal for fricken race gas. Geesh, dont they THINK about it before they write some of these rules.

I think the hydrocarbon chain would be longer in JP4 and diesel and it wouldn't meet the specific gravity requirement.

I think someone was trying to regulate out the expensive racing fuels, which there are in existance and they do make a good power increase.  And they are available.

However, I don't know if you can make a rule that blanket eliminates them consistently without regulating out pump gas.  And pump gas is a regularly used fuel by production based road racers.  

Someone really just took the rules from NHRA or SCCA and put them in place here.  Unfortunately, most of the people in the fuel selling business don't seem to understand the ramifications of the rule and claim certain fuels ARE legal when it is clear, if you had any knowledge of the rules, that the rules are very restrictive and eliminate most fuels period.

[Super Dave]

why not just drop the fuel rules altogether.

Since nobody is interested in protesting or enforcing, let any fuel be legal.  If somebody wants to spend crazy amounts of money on hard to tune types of fuel, let em.

Well, yeah, there is some merit to that.

But would you want someone running methanol?

I've got a nitromethane carrying product that does work well in gasoline.  I agree that it probably doesn't need to be used.

This really should be kept simple.  You can use gasoline, and you should be able to buy a gasoline racing fuel, leaded or unleaded, as produced my a manufacturer, or even put together by yourself through a mix of fuels or even products.  Allow a person to keep it simple, but follow some reasonable parameters.

[KBOlsen]

Can someone please tell me the shelf life of nitromethane before I show John this thread?

[Super Dave]

I think it depends upon too many variables.  Container, if it was sealed properly, if the air was removed and nitrogen put in it's place, etc. etc.

And I haven't seen great gains with Nitro methane in production bikes...really it doesn't mix well with gasoline at all.  Then you have to deal with the fact that the MON of nitro methane is 60.  That's pretty low.  You mix that with a lower octane fuel and it can preignite.  In the NASCAR Busch series a few years ago when the rules were pretty open, guys were allowed to run compressions at 16:1 and they were using Power Mist TO137 (5% oxygen and 120+ MON...apparently on another scale the octane was rated at 147...).  Next they started adding one gallon of a Power Mist product called Nitro Plus, it does have nitromethane in it and it does mix well with gas, to four gallons of TO137.  Guess it was worth 70+ HP on those engines.  But the fuel they were using worked with the combination because of its quick, cool flame burn and high octane.  They were running the RPM's over 8k.

[StuartV666]

But would you want someone running methanol?

I don't know. Why WOULDN'T I? Why would I care?

I've got a nitromethane carrying product that does work well in gasoline.  I agree that it probably doesn't need to be used.

Why not?

I'm not trying to be an ass. I'm just trying to understand what the real impact would be of having the Actual fuel rule be the same as the current De Facto fuel rule - i.e. no fuel rule.

Having a rule in the book that is not enforced is BAD. It is unfair to all the competitors who follow the rules. Having a rule that is not enforceable in some reasonably practical way is almost equally as bad. If I know that using Special 5 is illegal, I'm not going to use it. And if see some guy pouring it out of a Nutec can into his bike, I shouldn't have to fork out $200 and wait a month to protest him and get the results. Better to just make it legal and put us all on equal footing. 'Cause the net effect of not doing that will be that the cheaters will cheat and get away with it. Which sucks! And a moral victory ain't a patch on a First place plaque won fair and square.

- Stu

[r6_philly]

'Cause the net effect of not doing that will be that the cheaters will cheat and get away with it. Which sucks! And a moral victory ain't a patch on a First place plaque won fair and square.

- Stu

I thought every cheats ?  ;D

seriously, we would never be able to stop cheaters. As a veteran puts it to me "everyone cheats, if you don't,  you are behind already"

[Super Dave]

I don't know. Why WOULDN'T I? Why would I care?

Methanol?

First, gasoline has about 19000 BTU's where as methanol has about 9000 BTU's for the same unit.  So, you've got to run a lot of methanol to even make it work to make the same HP.  You're going to more than double your jet size and you'll probably have to completely rework the carb inlets, etc.

Really, really problematic with water.  It just pulls it out of the atmosphere.  Then it causes everything to corrode with the water in it.

Good methanol is hard to find.  You can find used commercial stuff, but it is of varing degrees.  Fair stuff will be a little cheaper than race gas, but good stuff will cost you more.

Then there is the burning problem.  If it catches fire, you can't see the flames.

With a seven gallon tank, you might have a problem finishing a GT race.

Otherwise, I'm not sure why methanol is not allowed, but it isn't.

[Super Dave]

Why not?

I'm not trying to be an ass. I'm just trying to understand what the real impact would be of having the Actual fuel rule be the same as the current De Facto fuel rule - i.e. no fuel rule.

Why no nitromethane?  And other nitrogen bearing additives?

Well, it does have the BTU's, but it is very volitile.  Very, very volitile.  Very heavy too, so you can practically dectect it by just doing a specific gravity test.  Other reagent tests will show it immediately.

Those nitrogen bearing additives are just not gasoline additives.  I think at some point, you just draw the line.  

[Super Dave]

I thought every cheats ?  ;D

seriously, we would never be able to stop cheaters. As a veteran puts it to me "everyone cheats, if you don't,  you are behind already"

Funny comment, but it is representative of the poor rules enforcement.

If everyone cheats, then everyone should be in front of me.

I think a lot of guys know of others that cheat, and that's probably another reason why people leave this sport...the impression of lots of cheating going on and nothing being done.

[smoke]

Dave
I will send the rule change info in.  I was talking to a friend and racer last night and I was telling him about this thread and the rules.. He said " so what everyone uses VP and they have a stake in racing and no one in going to care. "

That just made me think about my comment I made the other day

[StuartV666]

I thought every cheats ?  ;D

That is very disappointing. *I* do not knowingly cheat. Not even a little bit. I did run VP and Nutec this past season, but that was because I was told by the VP and Nutec reps that the fuel I was using was legal for Supersport. I would not have used it otherwise.

Anyway, it is true that some people will cheat, no matter what you do. The point is to have rules that make it so you don't need to cheat to be competitive, OR make it easy to catch the cheaters.

If you completely eliminate the fuel rule, then you've just cut out a whole bunch of cheating. Reasons NOT to do just that? Safety and cost. If a particular fuel is unreasonably dangerous (like say methanol, because you can't see it burning), it should be illegal to use. If a particular fuel is unreasonably expensive, then it should be banned IF there is a practical and expedient way to enforce the ban (which there doesn't seem to be).

- Stu