Rules Changes

[Litespeed]

Yes I do think so.  More time on the track isn't really needed for anyone with a 600 or SV because you can already run a dozen times in a weekend.  The riders that are truly limited on track time are the 1000cc inlines and the lightweight bikes.  They have very few classes that they can be competitive in which limits you to 2 or 3 races per weekend where you actaully have any chance.  Cutting this back to one or two would essentially make racing not worth it anymore as they have already cut the availability of Friday practice and all of the practices taht I have seen have been VERY crowded.  I raced a 600 my first year and like racing the 125GP bike a lot more.  When forced to make a decision between two decent races a weekend on the 125 or as many as I want on a 600 I will gladly choose neither and take my support and money elsewhere...

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

"A 560 is crazy easy to build if CCS would just let you use the cases from the YZF 600 like WERA does"

That sounds like the ticket to me.  Paging all FZR owners, let's talk with Kevin about this!!!

I suggest that you draft a rule change to allow the YZF600 cases for the 560 combo.  When I was racing Fizzers, I discussed this at lenght with Kevin.  He had suggested that I draft a rule change and send it to him, but by then I had moved to Middlweight so I never did it.
At any rate, Kevin is familier with this issue.  A well written proposal should fly.  Try posting on the FZR message board to get a greater response.  If you write a good proposal, post it, and ask everybody to sign and forward it, you should be able to get the rule changed.
In 02, my 560 was the fastest amateur lightweight at Daytona.  I weigh 250 lbs.  Do the math...

[Super Dave]

The MuZ are'nt slow by any means and beat the faster 400's on a regular basis

Stock, yes they are.  My MZ that I raced in the Skorpion Cup Series made 42HP on a Dynojet Dyno.  But now that the series is gone, there seem to be very few that are stock.  Those could beat FZR's.

MJ, the Skorpion Cup Series was with AHRMA.  It was a purse paying class too.  I raced it and made good money in 1998.  It won't really return without there being a completely separate class for it, the bikes are slow as you know, and contingency money for it.  It costs a lot to do that, and sales of the Skorpions haven't been extraordinarily brisk.

I don't see why there is a problem with keeping the class structure the way it is. They seem to run a lot of these smaller classes at the same time anyway. With the new scoring system you would think it would be easier to keep track of these smaller classes.  
 
Is it really such a burden on CCS to have these classes?  

Is it a burden?  Well, if you have been around a long time, you would have seen the deterioration of track time.  Practice isn't much more than a warm up.  No heat races, shorter races.  These are the results of all the added classes.  

Additionally, with all the "slower" bikes classes, it has caused some riders that were in the lightweight practice to move to amateur or expert practice sessions.  So, now rather than SV's trying not to hit VTR's and the like, you've got R1's and missile 600s trying to not hit SV's or Ducati F1's.

[Gumby647]

Is it a burden?  Well, if you have been around a long time, you would have seen the deterioration of track time.  Practice isn't much more than a warm up.  No heat races, shorter races.  These are the results of all the added classes.

You'll have to excuse my ignorance of how CCS operates a normal weekend outside of Roebling Road which are all twin sprints. All my other races this past year were Florida region which is way different.

This I how I remember a weekend going when I started racing over 10 yeras ago. Practice on Saturday til about 2:00 or so then run the GT races. If there was time left they would run a session afterwards. That normally got you 4 sessions on Sat 5 if there were no red flags in the GT races. Sunday you would get 2 sessions before the races started.

I had thought that lack of practice time was due to running the twin sprints not the number of classes.

Lately the races have been so poorly attended you'd think CCS would do whatever they can to get racers on the track. While WERA is reorganizing their structure and schedule to help the LW bikes CCS is doing just the opposite. I can remeber going to Daytona at the end of the year and the place was packed and the grids were full. The past two years the place was a relative ghost town.

Overall I'm not very happy with the way CCS is being run at the top. The officals at the track are great. It pisses me off the way the rule book is ignored and bikes are allowed to run in classes they were never meant to be in, RE: Nate's BMW and some Euro only bikes in sportsman. When I decide to race a class I look at the rule book and determine the best tool to use. Then later on in the year someone says oh yeah this is legal too. Then even worse than that is the same person DQing you after they said your bike was legal.

The other thing that is getting at me right now is that we have this thread and another 3 page thread about the fuel rules and not one comment from a CCS official about any of it. From what I see they don't care what we think, they are going to do what they want. Hell I see Sean Clarke on this board more than Kevin Elliot. I think that will have a big effect on where I spend my racing money next year.    

[MZGirl]

MJ, the Skorpion Cup Series was with AHRMA.  It was a purse paying class too.  I raced it and made good money in 1998.  It won't really return without there being a completely separate class for it, the bikes are slow as you know, and contingency money for it.  It costs a lot to do that, and sales of the Skorpions haven't been extraordinarily brisk.

I highly doubt Skorpion Cup will return, especially since MZ discontinued producing the entire Skorpion line of bikes.  There's still AHRMA's Production Singles class for those with stock MZ's, and Supermono for those with modified MZ's.  Still, not much racing compared to the CCS LW Sportsman & Supersingles classes, especially for those of us here in the SW.

[Super Dave]

This I how I remember a weekend going when I started racing over 10 yeras ago. Practice on Saturday til about 2:00 or so then run the GT races. If there was time left they would run a session afterwards. That normally got you 4 sessions on Sat 5 if there were no red flags in the GT races. Sunday you would get 2 sessions before the races started.

I had thought that lack of practice time was due to running the twin sprints not the number of classes 

No, I think that's the way I used to remember CCS weekends.  There are more classes now than there used to be for smaller, unique bikes that just don't have a much of a following here for racing.  

As for anyone replying about my fuel rules proposal, I really don't expect a reply on the message board from Kevin Elliott.  I have made my proposal, I've tried to get people on board with it.  I seem to be the only one that actually recognizes what the rule really means.  

What my beef will be is that if racers fail to go to my site and download it and read it and voice their concernts.  CCS will not even think of making a change unless they feel there is any voice from the racers.

So, my dissappointment will be with the racers.

I offered to go to the CCS meeting on November 15th as a representative for riders...I'm not saying I AM representative of riders, but I'll at least voice some opinions.  Although many of the people that do the weekend work for CCS at the races are good people, I still don't necessarily feel that they understand what we feel are needs for changes, etc.  I think in the Midwest, we do feel as though we're rushed out of the weekend in order to get everyone home rather than have a great event.

[tshort]

What my beef will be is that if racers fail to go to my site and download it and read it, CCS will not even think of making a change.

So, my dissappointment will be with the racers.

Dave - I still don't understand why this is an issue.  I have never heard it raised in tech.  No one seems to be policing it.  No one seems to care whether it's policed.  Why raise a fuss?  

[Super Dave]

Well, its a rule.  Which, for competition, is like a law, right?

A rule should be reasonable and enforceable.  Additionally, a competitor that breaks a rule should feel that there is:

Potential to be caught.

A potential for retailiation from the sanctioning organization.

The retailiation should be in a form a punishment that serves as a general and specific deterent to future rules breaking.  Specific in that the one breaking the rule will know better than doing it again.  General in that those that might think about doing it won't do it.

The rule exists and we're all supposed to play by the rules.  If not, I'll start running F40 for practice.  How about me running lightweight grand prix on my 600?  

But why should there be a rule in existance that does, in fact, eliminate pump gas (the most common fuel for competitors), unleaded racing fuels, leaded oxygenated racing fuels (usually a logical upgrade of fuels for competitors), and most commonly available leaded racing fuels?

Regardless, any competitor could feel very confident that they could do a fuel protest on almost any other competitor and "win".  It's not right.  

[Nate R]

"RE: Nate's BMW and some Euro only bikes in sportsman."

Who's BMW? Are you talking about me?

I see your point though, and agree. I don't think my bike (81 CB750) should really fit into a class in CCS, but it does.

[Super Dave]

Nate, I don't think that was meant for you.... ::)

The sportsman classes were intended for the more unique motorcycles:  non sport bikes, "vintage" race bikes, etc.  

Combining some of these classes will hit me hard with my H1.  My H1 is a 500cc two stroke...it fits in lightweight sportsman.  Since it's from the 70's, has dual shocks, I think that's a good fit.  But seems like more current bikes, like the FZR400, are coming in.  Well, that pretty much knocks the wind out of my sails, but I wanted to try and run the bike in Thunderbike anyway...now it will just cost more.

What to do...

[Gumby647]

I was talking about Nate Kern's Boxer Cup bike. Sorry if you thought I was calling your bike a BMW. 8)

I really don't understand why these classes are so poorly attended. I don't want to ride a bike that needs two sets of tires over a race weekend. I can't afford it. On the plus  side, with the exception of March Daytona in the rain, there was always close racing with me and the other guys in LW Sportsman and Supersingles.

As for having Kevin Elliot comment on this or the fuel rule , I think it would be nice if we knew what CCS's reasoning is behind the rules. You would think CCS could use this board to their advantage.    

[Super Dave]

Well, I can't speak for Kevin Elliott, but I can say some things that I have talked to him about.  First, new classes are usually given a couple of years to work themselves out. I wanna say that Lightweight Sportsman has been around three seasons.  Probably the same for Supersingles.  I know that I got Kevin to make a change to Lightweight Sportsman so that I could run my H1 in that class, but I still haven't got the bike done.

So, any changes he's considering there is related to the fact that in the whole CCS market, there just aren't enough entries.

On the fuel rules side, the original proposal to change the rule came, I believe from the north east.  The intention was to try to limit the usage of expensive fuels in racing.  However, whoever actually wrote the rule had no understanding of how restrictive it was....I.E. pump gas is illegal, most common fuels at race tracks are potentially illegal, and no one has testing equipment.