Displacement Rules...

[Super Dave]

In years past, there have been displacement limits on machines.  Years ago, most motorcycles had iron bores that could be rebored and new pistons installed.

In the early 90's, you knew who did a 2mm Wiesco overbore, illegal at the time, because they had oil smoke coming out of their exhaust of their CBR600F2.

I thought that the chrome bores would make it unreasonable and expensive for people to do this.

However, there has been information that has surfaced through the people that did the work that a certain Suzuki riding expert in the midwest area was using a 3mm overbore in a 600.

I have respected the riding of that rider, but this makes me angry.  I don't have the money to cheat, but if someone does and they can get away with it...

I'm looking for the Whistler device that most real racing organizations use to take internal measurments without tear down.  Simple as installing in the spark plug hole.

Would this make you unhappy too?

[ninelives59]

I have dealt with this same issue for awhile now. In club racing I dont think they really care...Look at Darin Luck and other top riders in club racing who day in and out come out with bikes that have big trap speeds. I am at that point and thinking of doing this same thing because no one will cough up the cash and protest.....thas my two cents >:(      

[MELK-MAN]

i think i saw on a bonnevile salt flat documentary they can simply fill the cylinders with some kind of fluid, measure the amount of fluid, and that gives a displacement reading with no tear down...
I would suspect it is evident that a bike is way overpowered, but not to be mistaken for good corner exiting. The cash problem for a tech inspection can often be handled by a "collection".. I/we know this is a good way rather than coghing up all the $$ yourself.

[mdr14]

3mm? I thought it was 2mm....

God forbid, somebody actually cheating in the midwest,

 Also, can you confirm that the motor in question was run in a class not legal? If so, "THEN" it would be cheating.

I guess now its too late to confirm this anyway, the season is over. The horses are out of the barn etc.

But you have an opportunity to save the $500 bucks (or what ever the fee is) over the winter to "keep em honest" in 2004.

Good Luck & God Bless!

[Super Dave]

The bike in question was used in Middleweight Supersport.

Extra $500?  LOL!  I'll be paying off debts forever.

Rules are like laws.  They should be reasonable and enforceable.  Everyone from the front runner to the guy in last should have to ahere to them.  It's not good enough to dyno test the top four guys...you've got to to the guy in 10th, 16th, and 24th.  Displacement, and weight for some classes, should be the same.  

I'm trying to find a thing called a "whistler" that installs in a spark plug hole.  Turn over the engine and it would tell you it's displacement...pretty simple.  I think that since that would only require the removal of the tank to get at the the things that would eventually get you to the plugs, the protest fee would be $25.

The fact that someone is thinking about doing this as a result of displacement cheating is just representative of how poor things really are.  Again, I don't have the money to do this, so it isn't even on my screen.  I assume that by everyone's complaining that they run a bike similar to mine, but it always seems to be that others sink way more into theirs and complain about the costs.

[fourandsix]

It's as simple as having a tech official with a radar gun. I think you are asking to much of the tech guys having them tear down and inspect a motor. They are not qualified half the time to make a decision. I remember in 2002 being at daytona for the FUSA race and they sent me to tech after the dyno run as they couldn't beleive the bike was that fast but wouldn't run properly on the dyno. The reason was they were convinced i had alter something in the fule injection. Problem was the bike was a Kawasaki with carbs! If they can't tell that what chance do they have checking anything else.

[Super Dave]

Jim, you ever heard of a "Whistler"?  All the car organizations have used it forever.  I've been hunting on the internet to find some way of getting one, but all I can find is car rules everywhere.

I agree that they don't know much, but if it's a simple matter of the displacement should be so many cc's per cylinder in a 600 and this one measures so many more, that would at least be easy enough for anyone to do, right?  LOL!

[fourandsix]

They have been using them in Drag racing for years , the problem i heard is they are not very accurate on small bore motors. The problem with guys that build oversize motors is the same problem as guys that buy penis enlargement gadgets. They just can't ride well.  LoL

[WebCrush]

Dave,

Try hitting up some tech officials at LRRS.  We had a situation this year where someone was accused of running a +3mm kit in their 750 for a while but nobody would do anything about it.

Eventually, someone showed up with a device which could measure the dispalcement of a cylinder pretty easily.  I belive it involved inserting a fitting into the spark hole and then 2 stroke oil is filled and drained giving you the amount (don't ask the specifics, I wasn't there).

Easy procedure and the guy ended up getting busted.

What REALLY pissed off people was that after the engine was deemed illegal (and they were in a tight tight points battle) they gave the cheater a $25 fine, no points loss, etc.

That was so infuriating that the guy who made the protest sold his bikes and quit racing the next day.  I don't blame him.

[WebCrush]

Hey Dave, I actually found your Whistler:

http://www.katechengines.com/prod/whistler/whistler.htm

Its 2 grand to buy and it only checks comp. ratio.  I don't think you can tell displacement from that (as you need to enter that value in) but its product name is clearly WHISTLER.  Also comes with a motorcycle adapter as well.

[fourandsix]

Evidently having an illegal motor or over the HP motor doesn't get you anything. Bradley Champion was DQ'd from the SV race , Jessie Janisch who finished 2nd was given the win. Oh and Jessie started on the last row after being DQ"d in the heat race for being 2lbs under the weight limit. This time his dad filled the tank! Good job Jessie! The HP limit was 79hp , Jessie's bike had 74 i think.

[KBOlsen]

Using a graduated cylinder and tubing, and something to screw into the spark plug hole, set the piston near TDC, back it up (say, 50 degrees), fill the combustion chamber with something that won't hurt the motor (cooking oil)...

There would be a mathematical formula (based on pi) that would tell you the "correct" amount of oil that would be moved in a 600cc motor.

This device could be easily assembled with just a trip to American Science & Surplus... for probably at/near $20.

Be sure to check ALL 4 cylinders... it would not be impossible for the "hard-to-reach" cylinder(s) to be the one(s) that are overbored.

Cheating sucks. >:(

[Super Dave]

Evidently having an illegal motor or over the HP motor doesn't get you anything. Bradley Champion was DQ'd from the SV race , Jessie Janisch who finished 2nd was given the win. Oh and Jessie started on the last row after being DQ"d in the heat race for being 2lbs under the weight limit. This time his dad filled the tank! Good job Jessie! The HP limit was 79hp , Jessie's bike had 74 i think.

Yeah, Jim, I just heard too.  Way cool, eh?

Seems as though the rules don't mean much in some organizations.  I was figuring that Jesse couldn't be that far under the weight limit...2 pounds...LOL!  Guess it just made it that much more exciting.

[Super Dave]

What REALLY pissed off people was that after the engine was deemed illegal (and they were in a tight tight points battle) they gave the cheater a $25 fine, no points loss, etc.

That was so infuriating that the guy who made the protest sold his bikes and quit racing the next day.  I don't blame him.

Would you blame him?

What's his name, the guy that got busted?

For a violation of rules, one can only say that the bike was illegal at that time.  It is hard, but a $25 fine?  What a joke.  Guess it makes financial sense to do it...LOL.

[WebCrush]

nope, don't blame him one bit.

Sorry, as much as i'd like to give out name, I hear a lot through word of mouth and i'd never want to brand someone a cheater without having the firm details and facts in my own grasp.

Some people say i have a cheater bike, since i'm +3mm (making over 125hp) over with 1k forks, swinger, and brakes with 16.5" rims--BUT i don't run SS, only GP and SB.

[Super Dave]

Yeah, I understand.  I would have thought that it would be information that would be commonly available, so posting that wouldn't be a problem...but I understand.

How big does going 3mm make a bike?

[WebCrush]

+3mm on a 600 (599) makes it a 654.

+3mm on a 750 makes it a 813.

I had mine done by Pat Doyle at New England Perf.  We bough the pistons from KWS, had the crank done by falicon, toss in some carillo rods and yosh cams and after some tuning popped out with 123hp.  I'm gonna get the heads done over the winter, i know there's more power left in there.

Although its hard to feel the difference at smaller tracks like Loudon, I had a blast at daytona where I could literally pass 3-4 bikes at a time on the banking at will. :D :D :D

[roadracer797]

Dave
There are guys cheating everyday and not just in MWSS. There are cheaters in other classes and they know who they are but the officials won't do anything unless you cough up the big bucks, the whistler sounds like a good idea but what about the other ways of cheating that is going on? I was accused of letting someone ride my bike and say it was me, which was so far from the truth that it hurt. I do believe that there a lot of cheaters in this sport but more people play by the rules then not. It is to bad that a few bad apples will probably ruin this sport in the long run.
Craig

[WebCrush]

I was accused of letting someone ride my bike and say it was me, which was so far from the truth that it hurt.

Why bother doing that?  I prefer the method of just slipping my transponder in someone else's battery tray. :D :D :D

It CAN raise a few eyebrows during practice if you put it on the 'right' bike.  Can really freak your competitors out. :D

[Super Dave]

I prefer the method of just slipping my transponder in someone else's battery tray. :D :D :D

 ;D  That's funny.

Have you all read my fuel rules info?