Fuel Rules?

Started by Super Dave, October 03, 2003, 04:33:08 AM

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Super Dave

If CCS wanted to follow their rules, they were proposed by some for a reason, they could take samples and test them immediately.  The tester is available.  

If no one is following the rule, the rule is unreasonable, and the body doesn't enforce the rule...why have a rule like that.  It should be changed.

Will 110 octane fuel hurt?  Yes or no.  Octane is not a measure of performance, neither is the dielectric reading that is being used to determine legality.  

I have regularly used a Power Mist Racing Fuel that has over 120 motor octane because it makes outstanding power and it accelerates great.

Most commonly available racing fuels when poured in to your tank will not perform at the same level as pump gas.  First, they usually burn slower, hotter, and with more debris.  This is not because they have 110 octane, it is because the chemical composition causes it to burn in a certain way.

Lots of people just pour in fuel without taking into account the differences in oxygen levels, lead content, and specific gravity.  These will all make differences in the air fuel ratio.  The motor might run lean or rich depending upon these factors, thus the bike can make less power.

Super Dave

cuda

I am confused.  I run CCS and use Nutec and VP MR-1.  Nobody said anything to me about it and the VP guy was there selling it.  They even announced him over the intercom several times.  Since he was only carrying U-4 and MR-1 in his truck I find it hard to believe that he could sell it at a CCS race when both are illegal.  Somebody please go over the rule with me if you don't mind.  Preferably somebody that works for CCS in some way.  

Super Dave

#14
Rule...

1.10 Gasoline - A petroleum fule whose characteristics meet the following standards:

1.10.1 Specific gravity must range between .700 -.775 at 60 degrees F


This is pretty simple.  These are basic testing requirements for weight that denote something as gasoline.  I've only seen a number of VP fuels that don't meet that.  Specifically:  VP C14, VP C14 Plus, VP C25, VP C46.

1.10.2 Dielectric constant must not exceed a reading of +/-0.4 on the HDE G-01 Fuel Analyzer.  Meter is calibrated in cyclohexane.

Here's where the problem is.  Someone decided that there were too many exotic fuels out there that increased the cost to racers.  First, the exotic fuels probably do not change the overall outcome of the race by very much.  They don't add so much HP that 600's are out beating 1000's.  Motorcycle road racing still requires a rider and a great suspension set up.

All fuels have a signature of hydrocarbons.  It is not a measure of performance.  Dielectric meters can measure such a thing, and each one is different.  Cyclohexane is a CONSTANT for measuring these hydrocarbons, that's why it is used to zero the meter.  

The HDE G-01 Fuel Analyzer is a specific meter that is accurate.  Given the differences in fuels because they can have variables during their manufacturing (maybe too little or too much Tolune, etc.) and they do age from being in someones dirty container, at the bottom of a bigger container at the track, the manufacturers of this Fuel Analyzer state that a batch may vary +/-.04 points.  

Additionally, if you run two stroke oil, there might be an increase of the reading by 0.1 to 2.0 points, depending upon how much is mixed in.

These rules are similar to what is run in SCCA Pro and NHRA Pro events, and they work at that level.  They usually have a $25,000 testing rig in place to do the tests to make sure that fuels are in compliance.

In 1999, CCS fuel rules were open in that the restrictions were pretty light.  However, the NASB fuel rules did not allow oxygenated fuels, period.  First, most pump gas has been spiked with oxygenates since probably the early to mid '90's.  So, you would have been illegal running pump gas.  Second, I knew what most of the guys were running, and everyone was running oxygenated racing fuel.  There was no testing.  I proposed a rule change for 2000 which was done.  

In 2001, the rules for fuel were changed again, but they were not part of the underlined text as is customary for rule changes.  I missed them until the end of 2001 myself.  Those rules have remained in place.  

The rules were writting by someone that doesn't understand their ramifications.  They remain in place because no one wants to understand them, however, I have written new rules before to try to fix the problem.  They are a restrictive set of rules that are not recognized by the tech people, they don't bring the testing equipment, but they do represent some of the problems with motorcycle racing in general.  Lack of knowledge about what things are about.  

Additionally, the worse thing is that most of the people selling racing fuel at the track don't understand the rule.

The rule needs to be changed to reflect the ability of racers to legally select pump gas and the available fuels from manufacturers.

Super Dave

MightyDuc Racing

I run race gas strictly because I have to thanks to a higher compression motor.  I tried mixing 50/50 with 93 pump gas, and it worked okay.  Last time out, I ran 100% race gas and it made quite a difference.
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QuoteI run race gas strictly because I have to thanks to a higher compression motor.  I tried mixing 50/50 with 93 pump gas, and it worked okay.  Last time out, I ran 100% race gas and it made quite a difference.

Ditto I either run 50/50 during practice to conserve money and then run full race fuel during races and qualifying.

I've also used the VP 'performance' fuel during practices which is basically super high octane but it helps prevent detonation in our built out engines.  Stuff was only $5/gallon and they recommended it.

r6_philly

Dave

I understand using race fuels will not decrease laptimes by a large margin. However, at a race track like Daytona, would it do more?

Super Dave

Sure, but how much?

Superbike Pole time for the 200 this year was a 1:48.376.

Supersport Pole time was 1:52.785.

So, that's putting a 190HP 1000 with 16.5 wheels, slicks, works suspension ($200k+?), etc...

versus a 125HP 600cc motorcycle with DOT tires and some what stock bodied suspension appearance...

It's not a big jump.  The 600 time would have made it into a Superbike race if the cut off were at 104%.

So, if we get ride of all the other things that make a superbike faster (wheels, longer than production swingarms, etc.) and make it horsepower alone...it takes almost 15HP to reduce the Daytona lap time by one second.

Yeah, it's important at Daytona, but if you can gain 15HP from a fuel change...

I'd bet that you probably are a poor tuner in the first place, and that luck gained the power.

I would use it there, but only as part of my receipe for my whole set up package.

Back to the rules....any oxygenated fuel, leaded, unleaded, or pump, is NOT legal under the current CCS rules structure.  If you're mixing pump gas and a fuel that would potentially be legal, you'll probably be illegal also.
Super Dave

r6_philly

mmm, 1 second is not that much on paper, but it probably equals more in reality because the time drops happen only on corner exits and/or straights. besides, on a track as Daytona 1/4 second could mean 5-10 length and out of the draft, I guess it would be beneficial to use them. I mean, all that you can do to maximize your performance is good right?

As for the rules, you mean if CCS check everyone's fuel and enforce the rules per the rulebook, they would have to DQ 90% of the paddock? Then yes it is stupid, and thats why they would not enforce it. So it is just one of those "unenforcable" rules, for inpracticality. Then I would support to have it changed. But changed to what? Maybe a cost clause? or something that allows the commonly accessible fuels? I know some guys in the pits are WEALTHY, and some are not, it doesn't seem to be fair if someone can use some fuel that is so out of reach for most of us. But then, they do come and race on WSB level equipment sometimes...

which brings something that makes me wonder, are factory teams allowed to participate in CCS events?

Super Dave

I think you'd wipe out pretty much almost all of the competitors.  

One second is a good amount at Daytona.  But look at what I said...If the only reason the Superbike is going faster is HP, it takes 15HP to get that one second.  You're not going to get that from fuel.

I could probably put some dyed and scented pump gas in some fuel tanks telling the riders that it was the most awesome stuff known to man and they would cut their times....Lots of racing is about the mind.  

If racing fuel isn't one of your components to your regular receipe, I wouldn't get wound up in it.

Can factory teams compete?  Sure, they used to years ago in the spring, but they don't do it much anymore.  Risk, money, etc.  And they do a lot more testing at Daytona now so that they don't have to try and show up in the spring.  All a rider needs is a CCS license.

Limiting fuel to cost?  How do you enforce it?  

Some people can't build engines but they can buy fuel.  Again, unless it can give you 15HP, it might not make a big difference, even at the "world's biggest dyno" , DIS.  
Super Dave

fourandsix

I have been to daytona a few times , what is amazing is that people will have a bike that works all year and they will start making radical changes and chase their tail the whole time .To be successful at daytona you must be prepared , both mentally and equipment wise. If everything is perfect you might do well. I have had quite a bit of success at Daytona over the years and also had very bad luck
there is no telling what would happen , but save your money for tires!

Super Dave

Bango...again, my man comes out with the simple answers.

(Make sure you razz one rider about falling down on the SV this weekend....)
Super Dave

andy342

Why don't bikes run methanol?  (I know it's illegal under the rules) But why, aside from it eating all the rubber seals in your fuel system?

Would it wreck the vacuum slide diaphragms eventually?   Is it too easy to dump in a little notro?

My father ran methanol in his 475ci Modified oval track car with mechanical injection.  It ran cooler than gasoline and the fuel is super cheap.