Fuel Rules?

[Super Dave]

Ok, someone started something about a new VP fuel.  I sell Power Mist, and I understand what fuels are illegal under the CCS rules.

Here's a list of VP fuels and their readings on the HDE meter.

Anything that is beyond +/-0.4 is illegal...

VP 110     0.0

VP 921    -0.9

VP 921RT -0.5

VP Air RaceTBD

VP RED     +0.3

VP*TransAm-1.0

VP C-10 (Unleaded)+1.6

VP C-11  -1.1

VP C-12  -0.5

VP C-13   -1.1

VP C-14   -1.6

VP C-14 Plus -1.5

VP C-15   -0.8

VP C-16  0.0

VP C-18  -1.4

VP C-19  -1.4

VP C-20   -1.4

VP  C-21 -1.0

VP C-23  -1.0

VP  C-25  -1.8

VP C-30  TBD

VP C-32  -1.3

VP C-34  -1.3

VP C-36  -1.5

VP  C-40  TBD

VP  C-42  -1.0

VP       C-44        -0.9

VP*       C-46              -0.5

VP       C-56/IMPORT              +6.7
 
VP       DRT        +9.6

VP*       MR-1              +6.7

VP*       MR-2              +5.2
 
VP*       MR-3              +6.1
 
VP       MR-4              +4.6

VP       MRX-01              +5.0
 
VP       MS-98              -0.8
 
VP       NOS              -1.6
VP       SVO-5 (Unleaded)       +9.0

VP       TBX              -0.1

VP       Ultimate-4              +9.5

[Super Dave]

So, VP guys...

The list of VP fuels that could be legal are...

VP110

VP Red

VP C16

VP TBX

I'm sure that the guys that buy fuel, and the fuels that the vendors sell, are probably NOT these fuels.

[charliev]

I am running a stock kaw 636 with slip on and pwr commander. Any advantage to race fuels for this motor? I normally just run pump 93 oct.

[Super Dave]

I am not a VP dealer.  You'd have to let them tell you what would be appopriate.  I sell Power Mist in the Midwest area.

Would a different fuel make more power?  Yes.  Would it directly equate to better lap times for a regular racer?  NO.

Unless the fuel can give the bike an extra 30HP, it probably won't make a dramatic increase in lap times.  Dramatic meaning a second.

A good fuel should run cool, clean, and quickly.  Pump gas cerainly isn't bad.  

I don't run a Power Commander on my '03 R6 because of one problem alone that relates to lap times...reliablity.  There have been a lot of PC that have stopped functioning on bikes.  Haven't seen that they necessarily give any dramatic results on the race track and the results are only small on a dyno...which isn't a race track.

Race gas might help a really fast running amateur or a quick expert realize a small increase in lap times.  There might come a time when it is a bit more necessary at that level, but even then....  Cost can become an issue.

[OmniGLH]

Ultimate-4 on DanO's 636 (box stock aside from a Akra slip-on that was made to fit from an '00 R6) made +6hp at the peak, and had a gain of as much as +10hp in the midrange.

+9.x when 0.4 is illegal.  Wow.

Dave, what are some #s for pump gas?  I seem to remember you mentioning at some point that under the current rules even 93 octane pump is illegal?

[Super Dave]

Yeah, it can be illegal.

Put some water in it and it will really be way off the chart.

Put two stroke oil in a fuel and it will change dramatically also.

[Super Dave]

Additionally, the G-01 fuel tester has been discontinued and replaced.  I don't know if the new meter will read the same.

[Super Dave]

Pump gas...

Shell Premium Unleaded - marketed as SU-2000  +1.7

Illegal by the CCS/FUSA rules.

Fuels can vary by approximately +/-0.4 because of variations and aging.  So, the CCS rules are trying to have all competitors run fuel that measures initially as 0.0.

Fuels that would pass that...

Citgo 110

ERC 110DX2

Power Mist T112

new Torco Mach 116

VP 110

VP C16

Are these fuels aways available to you?  Would your performance suffer because you had to use them?  Would it be an added expense?

If you were sponsored by another racing fuel company and they didn't have a fuel that met the narrow requirements of these parameters.....What would you do?

If you found that pump gas gave you good results, let alone the reasonable cost, would you want to find a different series to race?  Would you be angry if you won an FUSA race on pump gas and you lost the purse money because your pump gas didn't pass the fuel rules?

Would you feel that it is unfair that you have to spend $1500 on a supersport motor when you can buy an oxygenated, leaded racing fuel for $45 an get a quick similar set of results and be competitive?

[smoke]

are the fuel rules in place now? or are they for next year?

[Super Dave]

These rules have been in place since 2002.  I can't get it changed on my own.

I'll be writing new rules and placing them in a place on my website so that others my download it and send them in to the CCS office.

[james-redsv]

Seems to me the fuel rules mean nothing. I have yet to see anyone check the fuel at post race inspections and no one has protested anyones fuel. Most everyone in the LW class runs ultimate 4, and you are saying its illegal? So can I protest someone who is using it next year if CCS doesnt change the rules? What the F#@%!! :o

[charliev]

I have been told that running 110 or higher race gas can rob my stock motor of pwr. Is that true? In formula forty at daytona the 750's have an advantage. I just want to close that gap as much a possible. For that track what should i run to get the most from my motor?

[Super Dave]

If CCS wanted to follow their rules, they were proposed by some for a reason, they could take samples and test them immediately.  The tester is available.  

If no one is following the rule, the rule is unreasonable, and the body doesn't enforce the rule...why have a rule like that.  It should be changed.

Will 110 octane fuel hurt?  Yes or no.  Octane is not a measure of performance, neither is the dielectric reading that is being used to determine legality.  

I have regularly used a Power Mist Racing Fuel that has over 120 motor octane because it makes outstanding power and it accelerates great.

Most commonly available racing fuels when poured in to your tank will not perform at the same level as pump gas.  First, they usually burn slower, hotter, and with more debris.  This is not because they have 110 octane, it is because the chemical composition causes it to burn in a certain way.

Lots of people just pour in fuel without taking into account the differences in oxygen levels, lead content, and specific gravity.  These will all make differences in the air fuel ratio.  The motor might run lean or rich depending upon these factors, thus the bike can make less power.

[cuda]

I am confused.  I run CCS and use Nutec and VP MR-1.  Nobody said anything to me about it and the VP guy was there selling it.  They even announced him over the intercom several times.  Since he was only carrying U-4 and MR-1 in his truck I find it hard to believe that he could sell it at a CCS race when both are illegal.  Somebody please go over the rule with me if you don't mind.  Preferably somebody that works for CCS in some way.  

[Super Dave]

Rule...

1.10 Gasoline - A petroleum fule whose characteristics meet the following standards:

1.10.1 Specific gravity must range between .700 -.775 at 60 degrees F

This is pretty simple.  These are basic testing requirements for weight that denote something as gasoline.  I've only seen a number of VP fuels that don't meet that.  Specifically:  VP C14, VP C14 Plus, VP C25, VP C46.

1.10.2 Dielectric constant must not exceed a reading of +/-0.4 on the HDE G-01 Fuel Analyzer.  Meter is calibrated in cyclohexane.

Here's where the problem is.  Someone decided that there were too many exotic fuels out there that increased the cost to racers.  First, the exotic fuels probably do not change the overall outcome of the race by very much.  They don't add so much HP that 600's are out beating 1000's.  Motorcycle road racing still requires a rider and a great suspension set up.

All fuels have a signature of hydrocarbons.  It is not a measure of performance.  Dielectric meters can measure such a thing, and each one is different.  Cyclohexane is a CONSTANT for measuring these hydrocarbons, that's why it is used to zero the meter.  

The HDE G-01 Fuel Analyzer is a specific meter that is accurate.  Given the differences in fuels because they can have variables during their manufacturing (maybe too little or too much Tolune, etc.) and they do age from being in someones dirty container, at the bottom of a bigger container at the track, the manufacturers of this Fuel Analyzer state that a batch may vary +/-.04 points.  

Additionally, if you run two stroke oil, there might be an increase of the reading by 0.1 to 2.0 points, depending upon how much is mixed in.

These rules are similar to what is run in SCCA Pro and NHRA Pro events, and they work at that level.  They usually have a $25,000 testing rig in place to do the tests to make sure that fuels are in compliance.

In 1999, CCS fuel rules were open in that the restrictions were pretty light.  However, the NASB fuel rules did not allow oxygenated fuels, period.  First, most pump gas has been spiked with oxygenates since probably the early to mid '90's.  So, you would have been illegal running pump gas.  Second, I knew what most of the guys were running, and everyone was running oxygenated racing fuel.  There was no testing.  I proposed a rule change for 2000 which was done.  

In 2001, the rules for fuel were changed again, but they were not part of the underlined text as is customary for rule changes.  I missed them until the end of 2001 myself.  Those rules have remained in place.  

The rules were writting by someone that doesn't understand their ramifications.  They remain in place because no one wants to understand them, however, I have written new rules before to try to fix the problem.  They are a restrictive set of rules that are not recognized by the tech people, they don't bring the testing equipment, but they do represent some of the problems with motorcycle racing in general.  Lack of knowledge about what things are about.  

Additionally, the worse thing is that most of the people selling racing fuel at the track don't understand the rule.

The rule needs to be changed to reflect the ability of racers to legally select pump gas and the available fuels from manufacturers.

[MightyDuc Racing]

I run race gas strictly because I have to thanks to a higher compression motor.  I tried mixing 50/50 with 93 pump gas, and it worked okay.  Last time out, I ran 100% race gas and it made quite a difference.

[WebCrush]

I run race gas strictly because I have to thanks to a higher compression motor.  I tried mixing 50/50 with 93 pump gas, and it worked okay.  Last time out, I ran 100% race gas and it made quite a difference.

Ditto I either run 50/50 during practice to conserve money and then run full race fuel during races and qualifying.

I've also used the VP 'performance' fuel during practices which is basically super high octane but it helps prevent detonation in our built out engines.  Stuff was only $5/gallon and they recommended it.

[r6_philly]

Dave

I understand using race fuels will not decrease laptimes by a large margin. However, at a race track like Daytona, would it do more?

[Super Dave]

Sure, but how much?

Superbike Pole time for the 200 this year was a 1:48.376.

Supersport Pole time was 1:52.785.

So, that's putting a 190HP 1000 with 16.5 wheels, slicks, works suspension ($200k+?), etc...

versus a 125HP 600cc motorcycle with DOT tires and some what stock bodied suspension appearance...

It's not a big jump.  The 600 time would have made it into a Superbike race if the cut off were at 104%.

So, if we get ride of all the other things that make a superbike faster (wheels, longer than production swingarms, etc.) and make it horsepower alone...it takes almost 15HP to reduce the Daytona lap time by one second.

Yeah, it's important at Daytona, but if you can gain 15HP from a fuel change...

I'd bet that you probably are a poor tuner in the first place, and that luck gained the power.

I would use it there, but only as part of my receipe for my whole set up package.

Back to the rules....any oxygenated fuel, leaded, unleaded, or pump, is NOT legal under the current CCS rules structure.  If you're mixing pump gas and a fuel that would potentially be legal, you'll probably be illegal also.

[r6_philly]

mmm, 1 second is not that much on paper, but it probably equals more in reality because the time drops happen only on corner exits and/or straights. besides, on a track as Daytona 1/4 second could mean 5-10 length and out of the draft, I guess it would be beneficial to use them. I mean, all that you can do to maximize your performance is good right?

As for the rules, you mean if CCS check everyone's fuel and enforce the rules per the rulebook, they would have to DQ 90% of the paddock? Then yes it is stupid, and thats why they would not enforce it. So it is just one of those "unenforcable" rules, for inpracticality. Then I would support to have it changed. But changed to what? Maybe a cost clause? or something that allows the commonly accessible fuels? I know some guys in the pits are WEALTHY, and some are not, it doesn't seem to be fair if someone can use some fuel that is so out of reach for most of us. But then, they do come and race on WSB level equipment sometimes...

which brings something that makes me wonder, are factory teams allowed to participate in CCS events?

[Super Dave]

I think you'd wipe out pretty much almost all of the competitors.  

One second is a good amount at Daytona.  But look at what I said...If the only reason the Superbike is going faster is HP, it takes 15HP to get that one second.  You're not going to get that from fuel.

I could probably put some dyed and scented pump gas in some fuel tanks telling the riders that it was the most awesome stuff known to man and they would cut their times....Lots of racing is about the mind.  

If racing fuel isn't one of your components to your regular receipe, I wouldn't get wound up in it.

Can factory teams compete?  Sure, they used to years ago in the spring, but they don't do it much anymore.  Risk, money, etc.  And they do a lot more testing at Daytona now so that they don't have to try and show up in the spring.  All a rider needs is a CCS license.

Limiting fuel to cost?  How do you enforce it?  

Some people can't build engines but they can buy fuel.  Again, unless it can give you 15HP, it might not make a big difference, even at the "world's biggest dyno" , DIS.  

[fourandsix]

I have been to daytona a few times , what is amazing is that people will have a bike that works all year and they will start making radical changes and chase their tail the whole time .To be successful at daytona you must be prepared , both mentally and equipment wise. If everything is perfect you might do well. I have had quite a bit of success at Daytona over the years and also had very bad luck
there is no telling what would happen , but save your money for tires!

[Super Dave]

Bango...again, my man comes out with the simple answers.

(Make sure you razz one rider about falling down on the SV this weekend....)

[andy342]

Why don't bikes run methanol?  (I know it's illegal under the rules) But why, aside from it eating all the rubber seals in your fuel system?

Would it wreck the vacuum slide diaphragms eventually?   Is it too easy to dump in a little notro?

My father ran methanol in his 475ci Modified oval track car with mechanical injection.  It ran cooler than gasoline and the fuel is super cheap.

[fourandsix]

Bango...again, my man comes out with the simple answers.

(Make sure you razz one rider about falling down on the SV this weekend....)

He said he was just trying to be like you!

[Super Dave]

He said he was just trying to be like you!

LOL....gotta aspire to be something....I guess... ;D

[Super Dave]

Why don't bikes run methanol?  (I know it's illegal under the rules) But why, aside from it eating all the rubber seals in your fuel system?

Would it wreck the vacuum slide diaphragms eventually?   Is it too easy to dump in a little notro?

My father ran methanol in his 475ci Modified oval track car with mechanical injection.  It ran cooler than gasoline and the fuel is super cheap.

Methanol cheap?  You get exactly what you pay for.  

Methanol is used in many commercial applications.  So, often, what I've seen people get is used methanol either from medical applications, silk processing.  Methanol can even be "reclaimed".  Bottom line is that as it gets used, it continually gets more and more contaminated.  Often, "racing methanol" is only 92% methanol.

Proper racing methanol costs about as much as a decent leaded non-oxygenated racing fuel.

Cooler?  Yes.  Methanol has less BTU's than gasoline.  9500BTU's vs 19000BTU's for the same amount.  So, to make similar power, you need twice as much...hence the bigger jets...and the reason why you use twice as much methanol as gas in racing.

Storage is a huge issue with methanol.  It loves water.  Lots of the problems associated with it come from the fact that it attracts water, or because many of the cheaper methanols contain a lot of water, it corrodes parts and they get whacked.

Seemed like back in the early days of FUSA, there was a guy running a Yamaha FZ750 on Methanol...hard to get it to last the race.

Ulrich's Team Suzuki built "Methanol Monster"  GSXR1100's in the early '90's when the rules were pretty wide open.  They used Power Mist Holeshot Methanol to finally get them to work and beat the YZR500's that  Roberts' brought over for Oliver and Peterson to ride....

[EX#996]

(Make sure you razz one rider about falling down on the SV this weekend....)

The most memorable thing for me this weekend in regards to this "rider" is him pounding on the motor home (his) windows as he passes us going down I-55.  It was absolutely hilarious.  

The little stinker, he even has to pass us on the interstate...  No respect for his elders.   ;D

Dawn   :)

[EX#996]

He said he was just trying to be like you!

DOH!!!!   :o   :-X

Hehehe

 ;D

[GAMEDIC]

Dave you are not correct MR1 MR9 and Ultimate 4 are all just fine for CCS and WERA as well as the new Ultimate 2 and yes i am the SE VP Rep.

[james-redsv]

Dave you are not correct MR1 MR9 and Ultimate 4 are all just fine for CCS and WERA as well as the new Ultimate 2 and yes i am the SE VP Rep.

I think we have a challange here. Dave will you respond please, I would like to hear what you have to say about his statement, man this is a good thread. ::)

[Super Dave]

Sorry, I'm not the one to challenge.

The high Desert Engineering Meter measures VP MR1 at +6.7.  

Legal parameter is +/-0.4.

VP MR9 is similar to the MR series VP fuels in that it is leaded an oxygenated.  There is word on the street that VP is actually purchasing it from Nutec, which I won't go into where that comes from, and that it is one of its Special 4 or 5 blends, hence, the extraordinary price.  Yes, I can't say for sure, but I had that information on good authority.

Regardless, the fact that anyone in CCS that can tell you that fuel is legal without taking a sample for a reading on the meter that they say the rule is based on, is incorrect.  

WERA's rules are quite a bit different than CCS rules.  They use the "old" dielectric DT-15 tester made by Digitron.  It measures hydrocarbons in a completely different way.  Under WERA's rules, pump gas is legal because of the height of the polar reading they are allowed.

So, like I said, I'm not the one to challenge.  The meters read a particular way.  I just know how they read the fuels.

[Super Dave]

And to add...

I think these fuels should be legal.  The parameter for fuel in CCS/FUSA is too restrictive.  I am using the information I have available to inform you of how restrictive it is.

Does this make sense?

I'm not picking on VP, but because they have so many fuels, I readily can get information on them.  Additionally, VP is a contingency sponsor.  So, the fuels that are supplied to the distributors should be legal.  

One of the problems in motorcycling is a lack of knowledge.  The rules were changed for a specific purpose to limit the usage of exotic, expensive fuels.  However, there is no "test" that will do that that will allow a person, team, rider, etc. to use the least expensive alternative for fuel...pump gas.  Additionally, this is still predominately the most widely used fuel among us.  

Next, the rules writers failed to recognize the fact of pump gas usage.  The rule sits there.

I mean here we go...

If I wanted to, I could have protested the guys ahead of me in FUSA at Heartland Park.  I happened to be using a fuel that falls within the parameters of the CCS/FUSA rules that weekend because I wanted to richen up my mixture for the hot, hot weather.  I could have put myself right into first easily becasue I know that the front runners at that level are running exotic oxygenated fuels like I usually run.

More questions?

[coeff]

If I wanted to, I could have protested the guys ahead of me in FUSA at Heartland Park.  I happened to be using a fuel that falls within the parameters of the CCS/FUSA rules that weekend because I wanted to richen up my mixture for the hot, hot weather.  I could have put myself right into first easily becasue I know that the front runners at that level are running exotic oxygenated fuels like I usually run.

That would have been the easiest way for you to effect your change, taking an issue to that level seems to be the only way to get the attention of the arrogant profiteers of CCS management.

[WebCrush]

If I wanted to, I could have protested the guys ahead of me in FUSA at Heartland Park.  I happened to be using a fuel that falls within the parameters of the CCS/FUSA rules that weekend because I wanted to richen up my mixture for the hot, hot weather.  I could have put myself right into first easily becasue I know that the front runners at that level are running exotic oxygenated fuels like I usually run.

More questions?

Hmmm . . . sounds like a Daytona strategy to me. :D  Then again, I bet they'd just deny the protest rather than bump up the top runners in a race over a fuel rule which is moot.

[OmniGLH]

That would have been the easiest way for you to effect your change, taking an issue to that level seems to be the only way to get the attention of the arrogant profiteers of CCS management.

That's probably true.  Unfortunately, it's probably also THE quickest way that Dave could place a target on his back....

[Super Dave]

The rule was proposed, I believe, by someone in the northeast.  The logic was decent, but the execution doesn't work out.  Admittedly, I don't think Kevin Elliott is "into" fuel rules, he was just going by the information given to him.

Certainly, CCS doesn't make money from it, so I'm not sure why you call CCS a "profiteer" for it.

Would they deny the fuel protest?  You're probably right.

The second part of that is that a rider could actually run a fuel, because they are not testing anything, that is clearly hazzordous, physically, and clearly outside any of the previous rules or any rules that have ever been for gasoline.

Anyone hear of Hydrazine?

I think Nutec has Napthalene in it.  How about that?  

Nitro Methane is clearly out of bounds in any gasoline fuel rule, probably wouldn't help a production bike much anyway, but would that make you dissappointed if the winner of a race was using it?  You'd smell it.  But if no testing were done?

Power Mist makes a product called Nitro Plus.  It has Nitro Methane in it.  I don't use it, but I have, and I have used it in dyno testing.  

[Super Dave]

That's probably true.  Unfortunately, it's probably also THE quickest way that Dave could place a target on his back....

LOL!

Jim, I've carried a target for some time.  Sometimes, I even try to help everyone aim... :o

[GAMEDIC]

If you were to go by the "rules" and they were enforced not even pump gas would fall under what is in the book

[Super Dave]

Um, yeah, that's the point of this whole thread.  

That is because the fuel rules that CCS has are so restrictive.

Again, WERA's rules are written differently where pump gas passes.  Additionally, there are many oxygenated leaded fuels that would pass.

However, agents such as Nitromethane, Propylene Oxyide, Coxac would probably be picked up by their rules.  CCS doesn't test, so these items would never be even looked for.  

The rules should reflect the ability of a racer to purchase inexpensive fuel (pump gas) in addition to leaded and unleaded racing fuels that are available to individuals to purchase.  There are reasonable parameters that can address this, but the current rules do not allow pump gas and many common fuels that are used in motorcycle club road racing.