elec. scoring and qualifying

[Super Dave]

Does CCS want money?  Well, yes, it is a business.  Does it make a lot of money?  No.  Is it worth it?  Only in the fact that the people at CCS enjoy the sport of motorcycle road racing.  If someone would like to foot the bill for a day of renting a track, paying insurance, and all, not to mention handling problems that come from the riders mistakes and the like.  It is for the love of the sport.  

Early entries at least allows CCS to recoup some of the investments into insurance, track deposits, and the like that have to be done BEFORE the event ever happens.  And even then, at some tracks, there may not be enough riders to allow the event to break even regardless of the volume discount that Clear Channel Entertainment gets on its insurance.

As for sponsorship, well, what class you race in is a factor.  The race for Unlimited Grand Prix is a bit more "prestigous" than Lightweight Sportsman.  Nothing against either, I race in ULGP and I'm building a LWSM bike (and how long have we been waiting for that, Kevin.)  But if you were going to race a premier, slug fest class, one is more apt to receive sponsorship for that when compared to another class.

Of course then the other mitigating factor is the program that one offers a potential sponsor.  There are slower riders that have created good programs.  They may never be able to ride a bike to its limits, but they are well sponsored because their program exposes customers to a product.  

If we grid by points, yes, do it by pre entry.  Then fill the rest in by order of entry.  If you do it this way, you reward early entry, consistent customers (those that may not be the fastest, but at least are committed to showing up for the series), and faster racers.

That should at least even out the playing field at the start and make it feasable that more riders could be potential front runners.  

[ecumike]

Just wanted to put in my .02...
About Sponsorship:
I may just be lucky, and/or the exception, but this is my first year racing motorcycles, and I got 4 sponsors before I even started my first race... granted they are product discount sponsorships, and not cash, but hey.. just as good, saved/s me loads of $$$.

Don't believe that you have to be top 10 to get a sponsorship.  All you gotta do is ask.  You just have to sell yourself as an investment... and sometimes, it's not even that difficult.

BTW, I race LW.. not even a 'premier' class, as I would say.

[Super Dave]

Indeed, product support is available.  You created an image, and suppliers, out of love for the sport, support you.  Very common for those who have an interest in the sport to support it.

I do the same thing selling racing fuel and offering school programs to racers.

Sponsorship, if we want to talk about the big picture, is a contractural obligation to advertise for someone.  "Race to win: can be written into these contracts.

Back to our regularly scheduled electronic scoring...

[r6_philly]

let me clarify. I mean sponsorship as far as "cash" sponsor goes. Or free product.

I can buy everything I need at almost dealer price (thanks Pro-Motion) so I really don't need discounts. I need sponsors for the travel expense, entry fees, gate fees, and tires.

I just got passed on by a sponsor this week because I was not listed in the points of being top 10 (which I am I think, if the points are updated ;) )

My biggest complain is, by the time I figure out that I need to pre-reg. REALLY AHEAD of time, it is too late for the year. So I am waiting for next year.

CCS: I NEVER post entered. and I NEVER started on the first 3 rows in MW classes. So the current system DOESN'T always reward pre-entries. I pre-entered Pocono last year 1 month ahead of time, and end up on the 9th row. Lets see where I end up this time, I faxed the form Friday (1 month)

For anyone who said race other classes: in Mid-Atlantic, unless you race a LW machine, you are out of luck. GTU GTO usually have almost full grid, and the sprints are sometimes filled up BEFORE sat. morning.

When I took race school at VIR, the ONLY classe I could get in on Sun. with my 600 was Unlimited Supersport.

Basicly, if I decided mid-season to contend, it is not happening. Everything has to start in the begining fo the season. But it is harder to commit 1 entire year of effort without any cash sponsors.

So it is hard to win, it takes more than riding skills.

[StuartV666]

Our problem with qualifying has always been the extra expense it would incur for the riders rather than a lack of time. ...  But once you start making qualifying as important as that then you have the expense of qualifying tires, qualifying set-ups etc... The same people who can afford to enter the whole season, or who run every race all season to get a good grid spot will be the same ones who spend the big bucks to have a qualifying bike/set-up.  Then we get to more rules and more enforcement about bike swapping which adds to more work for the officials and the riders (who will of course feel the need to plice their competiton to an extent).  What it means is that the final outcome is the same as it always has been in racing of any sort and always will be - the people wiht money and desire will be up front, the people doing it just for fun will not.  Of course if you're doing this just for fun then grid spots and finishes shouldn't matter should they?  This is club racing after all...

I think you dismiss this too easily. Sure qualifying gives extra advantages to the guys with the money for qualifying tires, etc.. But, as somebody else already said, how much difference will that stuff make to Regional racers? 1 second per lap? In my mind, the purpose of qualifying is to get the grid in approximately the right order. If I'm one of the 4 fastest guys, and I'm on the 1st or 2nd row, I'm pretty happy. I don't really care if I'm bumped one or two spots on the grid by somebody who spend all that extra money. I'm still close enough to have a fair shot at winning. Besides, how many people would bother with what you're talking about? I wouldn't. I don't think any of the guys I know would either.

I also submit that, while your approach MAY have the results you described over a whole season, I submit that it doesn't over a weekend. You said that the people with the money and the desire will be up front. I came to Roebling back in March. I spent the money on my bike. I had the desire. Furthermore, I assert that I have the ability. But, being gridded in about 40-something spot on the grid and having sprints (and my Solo 20) shortened to 6 laps meant that I still finished 17th. I.e. no points. I went to VIR and it was the same story. Gridded in the 3rd wave and decent lap times left me still with no points. I go run CCS instead, and in my last 4 races, finished 1st, 2nd, and two 4ths. No qualifying, huge grids, and frequently-shortened races means that how you finish on a WERA weekend depends a lot more on how long you've been racing with WERA, building up your points so each successive season you can start the first race with a better grid spot, than it does on your money, desire OR ability. Not saying all those things aren't important. I'm just saying how long you've been racing with the organization shouldn't be a factor in your opportunity to do well on any given weekend. My opinion.

And Stu - from a business perspective what we and CCS do isn't catering to the people with money.  It's supporting our regular customers which is a good business practice, not a bad one.  The only truly sporting way to do grids is pull names from a hat - and that would be too time consuming to do in a fair and equitable manner with full oversight by the riders.

I agree. What WERA does is definitely catering to its regular customers. However, I *personally* don't agree with a philosophy that caters to regular customers by giving them an advantage on the track. Cater to them in other ways. Give them a Frequent Racer discount on entry fees. Let them be the only ones allowed to register on Friday evening.

And why would you say that timed qualifying is not a truly sporting way to do grids? Everybody has the same opportunities and the same rules to play by. And the rules and opportunities aren't affected by how long you've been doing it or how much you've raced with that organization before. Whoever can turn the fastest time gets the pole. How can it be more sporting than that?

- Stu

[THE_D.O.C.]

sure stu-ped. lets just wittle the weekend down the weekend to four classes. {just like ths ama} and then we could do your cheesy qualifying {just like the ama}. and then both groups {while doing this to please whiny butt stu} will go under due to lack of money to support it. the ama doesn't live off of entry fees. they have tv rights and such. did you think that you could have qualifying for each and every class? i sure hope not. then it wouldn't be a race weekend, it would be a race week.

[Mongo]

I never said qualifying wasn't sporting - only that the truest "sporting" (and by this I mean equally fair to everyone without regard to ability or money) way to grid is names out of a hat - pure luck, no other input affecting things.  

As for your grid spot at Roebling - did you pre enter that race?  Being the second round of the season the only people who had points were the top 15 from the Talladega round in February.  What this means is that the worst case scenario if you pre entered early (as you profess to like doing with CCS which I totally understand) your worst grid spot would have been 16th on the grid assuming all 15 with points showed up - that would have put you on row 6 which at worst would have been the first row of the second wave.  If you are as competitive as you say then that would not have been too much to overcome (especially give the way Chuck starts waves in the same class).  This would have then give you points for the Cycle Jam...  

Anyway - on the qualifying thing.  This is club racing, not pro racing and the more we can do to help racers keep costs down the better for all of us and the sport.  We do have classes available where people can spend all sorts of money but a procedural change like qualifying would have to be done across the board and would affect the "budget" classes as well.  I think that the way CCS does it and the way we do it are the best two ways, they both have advantages and disadvantages - I of course prefer one over the other but I'm pretty biased :)

One last thing on the points/grid stuff - I don't think your argument for a different grid procedure is valid however you might have one for paying points back further....

[GPgofast]

I'm a new racer so take EVERYTHING I say with a grain of salt. AFM in California uses points to set their grid position and they also use timing transponders and it works out extremely well. At least as a rider you can see almost imediately how competitive you are to the rest of the racers and you have incentive to make as many races as possible. Cost is NOT prohibitive, in my opinion, I think the transponder is under $200 and that is less than most of us are paying for a rear tire. I don't think there is time in a weekend to have actual qualifying and a points system is fair in that if you are looking to get into a points race, if you have been competitive you don't have a bad grid postion to use as an excuse, also, it does tend to set the grid by speed which in my opinion is safer than by entry date. You could have(and sometimes do) have a front of the grid getting passed by the fastest guy in race coming from the tenth row. I don't think this is neccessarily safe for everyone in between him and the front especiallly when his pass strategy is to ride "like they aren't even there"! Also the AFM sets there practice by lap times, not what kind of bike you are on. So fast guys on any bike are riding with fast guys. You generally have common top ends, corner speed, braking points and common lines...much safer than throwing ME out there with the points leaders. Timing transponders do work and are not cost prohibitive in the big picture. Just my .02 cents.

[THE_D.O.C.]

say someone has a 600, a 750, and an SV that weekend. what keeps him from putting his transponder on his 750, and saying it was his 600/SV, etc. qualifying is not feasible.

I WANT MY TWO$ STU!!!

[ecumike]

hmmm... good point DOC, how WOULD that work?   or even... putting my transponder on DOC's bike ?

[THE_D.O.C.]

that would be one fast aprillia rs250!!!  ;D

[ecumike]

 ;D  ..hell yea, that's what I'm talking about... I need all the help I can against those d@mn SVs