Qualifying for Amature Races

[arlingtonrider]

I read thru the thread on here on the upgrades, but I do not see why, especially now with transponders that CCS does not implement qualifying for the AM races, mid SS in particular.

I did track days for a couple of years, turned under 1:30 at Summit thought I was fast.  Race school, grid....in over my head. crash, crash, crash.  I am now 4 seconds slower than when I started this season and have not raced sense my injuries have healed.

Like was said previously - there is more discrepancy in an AM race than a track day.  That is not safe for anyone.  I know some of my friends have told me to get back out there and no amount of track days or schools can give you grid experience....but if a rider cannot turn a basic race time (under 1:30 at summit/1:50 at VIR or something) on a 600 then I do not think they should be out there.  

You know who this hurts most of all?  ME!!!!  I am on the bubble but for my safety and other riders I am spending mucho dinero in schools and at TD's trying to get my riding together.  Then, and only then will truly believe I belong on the grid.

Going to a race school and getting a license only proves that you can go a day without crashing.

Do not get me wrong, I enjoyed every second of being on the grid, being dusted by Hector, thumbing up to the cornerworkers when I made the final lap; but I think qualifying would be a good thing for all concerned.
If you do not qualify have a non qualifying race for those that did not make the cut.  At least it would be more competitive (and more fun) for people like me.

[MightyDuc Racing]

Qualifying would be great, but not always practical.  However, everybody that is deemed a "safe" rider, fast or slow, should be allowed to race.  This is club racing, not the AMA.  We often enter turns going 25-35 mph (at least) faster than the slow guys in out LW classes, does that mean they shouldn't be out there?  It's just a tough situation that will probably never change.  If an AM thinks that the backmarkers are too slow, let them turn expert.

[r6_philly]

then to refine the idea,for a rider to get out of the beginner class, they must finish 4 weekends PLUS able to turn a average time of within 110-115% of the winning amateur time in the given displacement class. So for a 600 that would be about 1:26-1:30 and VIR would be 1:47 - 1:51. And if we eliminate the fastest AMs to expert, it would be even safer, as lapping would not even happen at VIR in a sprint race.

As for classes. I think there should be a sportsman class, a LW, a MW and HW class for beginners. You can race one class up for a total of 2 races a weekend for the first 4 weekends. That way its easier on the racers, equipment, and keep the speed difference to a minimal.

The beginner class should be just for learning. not for a championship, for race wins, for points. So people will focus on racing basics without the pressure to win real stuff. Thats safer for them and others. If a fast beginner have to race 4 weekends as a beginner no matter what, he will be focused on riding well instead of trying win and collect points toward a championship.

WERA have PN's only they don't seperate the races. We should have the PN's run seperate races to get their feet wet and up to speed. Most of them don't race more than a couple classes a weekend anyway. Without getting spooked by fast AM's and always finishing toward the back(how would they know, or able to register early for a grid spot up front) they may enjoy it more and come back more.

AM classes can stay the same, but EX classes should more mimick the Formula USA classes, maybe with 2 classes per displacement category, and run qualifying just like Nationals do, now that we have the technology. It would be more fun for the experts, and more rewards. And for guys that runs nationals, it would be the same format, I would definitely enjoy it more.

What do you guys think? Maybe I can put it in words with Dave's help and see if we get anywhere with this.

[OmniGLH]

Or how's about this?

(Now this is just a thought, so don't jump all over me...)

But what if we were to separate the classes, not by experience, but by laptimes?  

I'll talk about BHF since that's the track I'm the most familiar with.  The fast experts at BHF are averaging low 1:13s, high 1:12s, with an occasional 1:11 thrown in (excluding dates when Denning shows up...)  There are also experts that are still stuck in the 1:20s.

Amateurs have damn near the same spread.  The fast Am's are turning consistent low-mid 1:13s.  Slow Ams haven't even cracked 1:20s yet, still running low 1:30s or worse.

So what if we do this?  Have two classes:  A "fast" class and a "slow" class.  They already take lap times in practice, so let's do something with them.  Perhaps make the 2nd round of practice a "qualifying" session.  Your fastest lap determines whether you're in the "fast" group or the "slow" group.

To keep guys from cherrypicking, and purposely going slow in qualifying to stay in the "slow" group, we'd also look at things like finishes and race lap times, to determine if the person really is scamming.  

I would also agree with doing an in-between, "medium-fast" group, to separate out those who are running high teens and low 20s, from those who are running high 20s and above.  We can do it, there's plenty of time, if we eliminate half of these classes we have.  What's the difference between Middleweight Supersport and Middleweight Sportbike?  A few minor rules?  Why not just incorporate the $$ payout and weight limit with SS?  And what about all those other funky classes?  Thunderbike, LW Sportsman, etc?

I bet we can clean things up a LOT if we were to just stick to 8 basic classes:

LWSS/SB
MWSS/SB
HWSS/SB
ULSS/SB

Figure with 8 classes, that would leave plenty of time to either A) have more practice, B) run qualifying sessions, C) have in-between, "junior" classes, or D) make every weekend a twin-sprint or double heat event.  Or, have several of the above.

In fact, we could almost just combine UL and HW, since the 750s are being phased out, and most guys are going to 1000s.  Or have a HWSS which would be a supersport, unlimited CC, and then do a ULSB which would be an unlimited mods, unlimited cc.  That knocks it down to 6 classes for a weekend.  I don't understand why we create classes for bikes... I would think that it should be the other way around - buy a bike that is competitive in the class.  Don't show up at the track with an '89 Hurricane and expect there to be a class for it, ya know?

Just my opinion...

[Steviebee]

and no amount of track days or schools can give you grid experience....

Super Dave's VRS school

One full session of race starts with grid and all.   It was INVALUABLE TO ME. !!


cheap plug hehe.

[MightyDuc Racing]

I bet we can clean things up a LOT if we were to just stick to 8 basic classes:

LWSS/SB
MWSS/SB
HWSS/SB
ULSS/SB

Okay...I'm not legal for ANY of those classes.  Only GT and GP classes, and Supertwins.  Where do the purpose built race bikes race then?

[Steviebee]

So what if we do this?  Have two classes:  A "fast" class and a "slow" class.  

Speedway racing has something like this.

A, B and C riders.  A being the fastest and C being the newest.  I dont know how they classify the groups beyond that.

WERA has the PN guys, but they run in the same races.  Only difference is they get gridded last i believe.  I think its 2 weekends before thier considered novices.

Or we could stop racing on these rinky dink race tracks that are barely wide enough for a car and only race on brand new pristene 45' wide tracks like Barber.  Oh wait, there were still a lot of crashes there too !!

GRidding by qualifing is good, but u will still end up with lappers.

CCS allready runs a hectic schedule adding seperate races wont help.

Keep the ideas coming tho.  Maybe we can convince CCS to try gridding by times for next year.  They run FUSA that way dont they ?

[arlingtonrider]

Whoa!

I am NOT saying gridding by times per se.  WERA's grids by points are even more miserable than anything.  Do not do that! Once you are in the back you are stuck in the back.  You have to make crazy amounts of passes so you can get points for decent next race grid spot.
In CCS AM if you can run a 28 at Summit and get a good grid spot and decent start you are solid.  If you can run a 26 and a bad spot you are screwed.

I doubt there is enough time or man power for CCS to realistically set grids up by times, based on practice session times (or a qualifying session).  I think that you limit the qualifying to a 15 minutes session for first year racers only or something during the AM practice.  They have to qualify at each track, all year.  If they are not meeting the times (say you base it 110-115% of the median time - not average, but the actual guy who ends up in the middle of the pack) by the end of their first season they will be qualifying again for those tracks.

That eliminates the silly-o Hectors running 1:02s at VIR or whatever and sub 1 minute at Summit from messing up the curve as much.

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

I would also agree with doing an in-between, "medium-fast" group, to separate out those who are running high teens and low 20s, from those who are running high 20s and above.  

I don't understand why we create classes for bikes... I would think that it should be the other way around - buy a bike that is competitive in the class.  Don't show up at the track with an '89 Hurricane and expect there to be a class for it, ya know?

Just my opinion...

First point, that would be me.  I want to go faster.  I am getting faster.  But it's slow going.  I shouldn't be an amateur any more, but I kinda get in the way of the fast experts.  I'd love a middle ground class.  It would inspire me to go faster and win, therefore "graduating" me into the fastest group.

Second point.  Not everyone can afford a new bike.  Do you throw away your new bike next year when it isn't new any more and there's nowhere to competitively race it?  How about the 2-stroke and thumper guys?  Should we tell them to leave?  You have some GREAT ideas, but they still need a bit of polish to be solutions.  Let's keep this dialog rolling.  This topic is relevant and interesting.

[ecumike]

Okay...I'm not legal for ANY of those classes.  Only GT and GP classes, and Supertwins.  Where do the purpose built race bikes race then?

Ditto.. as soon as I get my 125.

Plus... let's all remember here guys... this is CLUB racing, it's supposed to be a chance to let everyone race, no matter what you're running.. Hell.. if you (including me) complain that the traveling to the tracks is far.. well what if you had to travel that same distance, but only for like 1 or 2 races... FUCH that. I'm not gonna drive 10 hours to barber for 1 or 2 race... that's almost a waste.

I think we should NOT ditch any of the classes that we currently run. (at least not the ones I run in :) )

[OmniGLH]

Second point.  Not everyone can afford a new bike.  Do you throw away your new bike next year when it isn't new any more and there's nowhere to competitively race it?  How about the 2-stroke and thumper guys?  Should we tell them to leave?  You have some GREAT ideas, but they still need a bit of polish to be solutions.  Let's keep this dialog rolling.  This topic is relevant and interesting.

Uy.  Ok now to be careful about wording my response, as I know there are some sensitive people here.

Here is where I'm coming from:  Local-level AMA motocross has a similar structure to what someone mentioned above - they have A B and C classes, based on speed/ability.  You have 2 classes for each level - 125 and 250.  Obviously, the guy that strolls out there on a 1988 CR125 isn't going to do as well as the guy who just bought a 2004 CR125.  He just doesn't have the technology to keep up.  Do they create a new, special class, so that a handful of guys who can't afford brand new bikes can also have a chance at winning?  No.  Well, sort of.  They have a "vintage" class - which is pretty much an "anything goes so long as it's old" class.  Which means you've got guys racing antique Bultacos right next to mid-80s 500cc MX bikes, all in the same race.  Could we do something like that for CCS and roadracing?  Sure, why not.  But my point is - the guys that wanted to win, and really wanted to do well, eventually had to step up and buy a new machine to do it.  I was in that boat when I used to race MX - I had an older bike, couldn't really afford to get a new bike.  I had to make do with what I had - and did fairly well on it.  I eventually reached a point where I figured I should either buy a new bike, or quit.  Racing at the time wasn't important enough for me to blow $6k on a new dirt bike, so I relegated myself to doing track days, etc.

I figure it like this:  racing, in general, isn't cheap.  Motorcycle roadracing is one of the most expensive forms of motorcycle racing.  The equipment, entry fees, maintenance, etc.  You know this coming into it.  If you want to come out, and win, then it's going to cost money.  If you want to come out, win, but do it on a mint-condition 1988 Hurricane 600, it's not going to happen.  If you can't afford to buy a newer bike, then all that means is that you can't afford to race at the level you want to race at.  Plain and simple.  

Does that mean that guys on the thumpers, 2-strokes, and what not should be turned away?  Not at all.  Just be aware that your 1982 Ducati twin isn't going to be able to hang all that well with my GSX-R750.  If you want to be competitive, you'll have to step up and get some updated machinery.

[OmniGLH]

Ditto.. as soon as I get my 125.

Plus... let's all remember here guys... this is CLUB racing, it's supposed to be a chance to let everyone race, no matter what you're running.. Hell.. if you (including me) complain that the traveling to the tracks is far.. well what if you had to travel that same distance, but only for like 1 or 2 races... FUCH that. I'm not gonna drive 10 hours to barber for 1 or 2 race... that's almost a waste.

I think we should NOT ditch any of the classes that we currently run. (at least not the ones I run in :) )

I guess I should also state that I would then expect the existing LW/MW/HW classes rules to be expanded slightly, such that we didn't totally exclude a range of bikes.  Base it more or less on cc's or something.

I'm not trying to say that I want certain bikes banned or anything - just cut down on the # of classes.  Stop with all of these specialized classes where only a handful of bikes qualify or even enter.  Just eliminate the class altogether and stick 'em in another class.