AM to EX upgrades

[tzracer]

Dave what I was thinking was to possibly break the racing into club racing and more serious racing. Unfortunately I don't think there are enough people racing for this to work. The club racing would be similar to what we currently have. The serious or semi-pro racing would have fewer, longer races with more practice time. Saturday all practice with 1 or 2 GT style races. Sunday, practice with a few feature type races. Spectators would probably be important to getting such a series to work.

More realistically, to add some beginner classes would require dropping some classes. Which ones to drop? We could have beginner races and keep experts and amateurs seperate. Maybe we should have a look at track densities, 50 on a 2 mile track may be too high.

You asked about practice, that would be tough. You want the beginners seperated, so that would require a beginners practice. Do we eliminate even more race classes to allow for more practice? Are practices broken up by lap times? I have seen some new riders that could turn some quick times, but were still a bit on the wild side. I am not sold that lap times are  a good way to proceed. I really don't like having mixed expert and amateur practice either (such as group 4).

[Super Dave]

Dave what I was thinking was to possibly break the racing into club racing and more serious racing. Unfortunately I don't think there are enough people racing for this to work. The club racing would be similar to what we currently have. The serious or semi-pro racing would have fewer, longer races with more practice time. Saturday all practice with 1 or 2 GT style races. Sunday, practice with a few feature type races. Spectators would probably be important to getting such a series to work.

More realistically, to add some beginner classes would require dropping some classes. Which ones to drop? We could have beginner races and keep experts and amateurs seperate. Maybe we should have a look at track densities, 50 on a 2 mile track may be too high.

You asked about practice, that would be tough. You want the beginners seperated, so that would require a beginners practice. Do we eliminate even more race classes to allow for more practice? Are practices broken up by lap times? I have seen some new riders that could turn some quick times, but were still a bit on the wild side. I am not sold that lap times are  a good way to proceed. I really don't like having mixed expert and amateur practice either (such as group 4).

Yeah, lap times don't work for me either.

I think there is too much redundancy in the schedule.  I love GP bikes, had one myself, but let's blow off MWSB and put it in MWGP.  Same for LWSB and LWGP.  HWSB?  Well, how about ULGP?  ULSS and HWSS?  Sportbike?  How dropping MWSS in there.

Specators would have to show up before it could be marketed.  NASCAR had a following before it was all over TV.

Beginner races?  LW, MW, HW...is there something that wouldn't fit?  And give 'em two events...LW1...LW2.  mabye you offer a performance index to allow for a guy that does have a superbike SV or something that he can't run it in LW1.

[Zac]

OK, time for a few comments:

Timed practice to determine grid position is called QUALIFYING.  Practice is a time to get your gearing, suspension, and jetting set up, find your braking markers and reference points, and scrub tires.  If we were to add a timed session to determine grid positions that's fine, but don't call it practice.  But how do you handle riders riding different bikes in different classes?  We don't have time to run a qualifying session for each race, so it would probably be split like our current practices.  If someone is running a 600 and a 1000 and rides their 1000 in the "qualifying" practice, should those lap times count towards their 600 grid?  How do you track what bike is out in the practice session?

If you really want qualifying, buy a 125 and race USGPRU.  They have timed qualifying (which eats into our CCS time).

I'll admit that I am slow (but I do improve each time out so that doesn't bother me).  I generally finish around 3/4 of the way back in the AM classes.  My highest ever finish is a 7th.  I have only passed one expert in all my races this year (that was still on the track) and I think he was having bike problems.  I do consider myself a relatively safe rider, I rode a year's worth of track days on 5 different tracks before I ever raced, I just would rather progress slowly and steadily and avoid getting hurt (as much as I can).  That said, I'm going to finish this year with over 1000 points and I plan on petitioning to stay am.  In the SW almost all of our races are combined EX/AM, so I'd be in the same place on the track by the end of the race whether I start with the EXs or the AMs.  If in the last coule of races this year I start to ride in the back of the expert pack or take a few high finishes I'll change my mind.

As for beginner races, in ASMA we have a Beginner class.  It is a run-what-ya-brung class, because with the beginners the bike doesn't make much difference in lap times.  Riders are allowed to ride the Beginner race three times, or if they win they are bumped out.  We also let the beginners ride in the amatuer classes (which right now isn't a problem because our grids are generally only 20 riders or so).  This allows the riders to choose if they want to run an AM race their first weekend.  Some are intimidated and just want to run the Beginner class their first weekend, which is good because we don't want people who would be uncomfortable running the AM classes, and it allows the riders some time to get used to racing.  Who here wasn't freaked out the first time they were on the grid in a real race?

-z.

[Super Dave]

Who here wasn't freaked out the first time they were on the grid in a real race?

-z.

Let me tell you about my first race.

In 1987, I went to Indianapolis Raceway Park for my first race, and riders school.  It was a WERA National Endurance weekend, in addition to Honda and Suzuki contingency.  This was the hayday of contingency racing, I think.  It was $1500 for a win on a Suzuki, and a new Suzuki GSXR750 off the floor retailed at just above $4000.

Anyway, my classroom work was done on the grandstands while practice was going on.  We had, I think, two riders' school sessions.  Then a written test.  To get our provisional novice license, we had to compete in a race and not crash...big goal.  I was racing a 1986 GSXR750.  It had an aftermarket exhaust on it, so it was considered a "Superbike", the other class was production.  So, the race was B Superbike, expert and amateur combined.  I was gridded on row thirty-three.  They stopped marking the rows at thirty-one.  I survived and finished fifteeth.  It was silly.

I would agree about what you said about gridding by times.  It would just be hard.  I think that gridding by points if they are pre-entered, post entries by entry date, would be good.  At least those that are committed would be gridded in a place that would be beneficial to them.  Doesn't WERA do some races like this?  I know AHRMA does.

[ecumike]

....... In the SW almost all of our races are combined EX/AM, so I'd be in the same place on the track by the end of the race whether I start with the EXs or the AMs.  ........

Zac dude, I gotta agree to disagree with you on this on.  
A: If you're riding in the middle of a pack of faster riders, and you see that THEY can go through a turn fast, it would probably make you think/realize that you can go through that same turn as fast, or at least faster than you have been.

B: No way.. if you grid in front, and are like half a second to 1 second slower than some other people, you basically can get a head start, and they'd have to play catch up to you.

How do you think I beat those d@mn SVs?.. I have to grid up front and get as much a head start as I can... TRUST ME.. it makes a difference!  :)

[Super Dave]

Zac dude, I gotta agree to disagree with you on this on.  
A: If you're riding in the middle of a pack of faster riders, and you see that THEY can go through a turn fast, it would probably make you think/realize that you can go through that same turn as fast, or at least faster than you have been.

Ok, I won't agree with that.

This all has to do with feel.  Just because one guy with one bike goes that fast, doesn't mean you can.  Has to do with how the bike works and feels, and how quickly your body can react (thinking speed and reaction speed).  The fastest guys can probably react the fastest, or they are so experienced that they know what to filter out in order to maintain a rhythm.

[ecumike]

OK OK.. maybe I should have said, "riding with the faster riders may give you bigger b@lls and push you more so you'll go faster."

I know it does for my.. especially when I'm trying to chase someone down.

[Super Dave]

Again, I wouldn't say this takes b@lls...

This is a very logical though out sport.  When a faster guy goes by, it just reminds you that you need to work on something:  set-up probably being the most important, how you do things, how you approach qualifying...where would you like to stop.  

Yes, sometimes you have to go out and just ride with the ability you have, but riding agressively will only take you out and above your confidence that you have in the abilities that you have.  When you do that, you usually don't cut the fastest times, but you can do ok...

[ecumike]

Awe sheesh Dave.. you're killing me here. :P

OK OK OK, what I really meant was.. "If you ride with faster riders, it can make you faster." - Right?.. isn't that what everyone says?

[r6_philly]

Awe sheesh Dave.. you're killing me here. :P

OK OK OK, what I really meant was.. "If you ride with faster riders, it can make you faster." - Right?.. isn't that what everyone says?

Maybe what you really meant was: if you ride with faster riders, it COULD make you fast. Provided if you think, do your homework, work on the right, not wrong things, and be wise with your choices and selections.

But then again you could be faster by yourself too  :P

I think racing with faster riders make me think more about what I am doing more, and sometimes I can extract info from what I see to use on myself to make me go faster.

[clutch]

These ideas need to be presented to CCS itself.  There are some really good ones posted here. I think that is a good idea about expert and make the races a little longer.  Like making the expert sportbike race the main event on a typical CCS weekend and make it go say 15 - 20 laps.  Afterall, if you read the FUSA program that was at the last weekend, they made the Sportbike the premeir class since it is really the most affordable and most competative, and also the biggest sales in cycles are for 600 class.  Expert can maybe use qualifying and keep the AM a trophy class with contingency only back to 10th and keep it a championship class.  Keep the races the sprint style so AM's dont have to deal as much with getting lapped and long events.  It can be done, as long as CCS wants to cooperate and listen to what the racers have to say and what we want.  It will take the voices of the top experts and Am's to get these points across.  Like Super Dave..a representative of sorts.  They are going to want to hear from guys who have been in it for awhile and plan to stay.  Not from guys who are just testing the waters.  Dafan..perhaps you should voice your opinion to them as well.

[Steviebee]

this gets discusses 2 each year ..

Is it up to 8 pages yet ?