AM to EX upgrades

[ahastings]

I feel there isn't enough incentive to move to the expert class unless you are fast enough to go right to the top 5 or have plenty of money to spend on tires, etc. I am racing on a very limited budget like most racers running up credit cards in able to afford to race. If I can stay Am one more year so I can get tire money by running top 5 it is worth it so I can afford to race. If I move to expert no more contingencies. I raced 3 race weekends and got 600 points because one of them was double points, does that mean I was twice as fast that weekend? I think the advancement requirements are very low for CCS which I wouldn't mind if there was incentive to move up. My solution would be to eliminate the purses and contingincies in the Am classes--plaques only and pay back twice as far in the expert classes, also all expert classes should have at least some purse just like in motocross based on the number of riders entered in the class.
   The issue with safety with riders of such different speeds is partly due to the gridding system. If you are lapping someone in a sprint race it should be easy to go by without incident, the problem is when you have midpack riders gridded up front and someone like Hector gridded in the back based on when they sign up. We have transponders, why not grid by practice times?

[Bernie]

It would seem to me that we all agree that the criteria that should be used for moving a racer up is very complex.  That is why an arbitrary system has been set up to "automatically" move someone up at the end of a season.  Nobody has to make the difficult decision.  Than a racer can then protest to stay amatuer.

I think we are doing this backwards.  There are too many variables to have an arbitrary cut and dry promotion system.  Fair and knowledgeable people with a keen understanding of the sport and the dynamics of the totality of circumstances have to be entrusted to make descisions.

Eliminate amatuer championships.  The amatuer ranks are for learning.  

The race director will evaluate the performance of the top 5 finishers in amatuer classes on a race by race basis.  When the race director deems the racer to be safe, predictable and reliably swift, the racer gets bumped to expert.  No Protest.  I have spoken with enough race directors to know that this is well within their ability to evaluate.

Arbitrary systems are designed to allow people not to have to make decisions.  In this case, it is because racers will get upset if they are not allowed to "compete" for an amatuer "championship".  There should not be an amatuer championship.  If it is eliminated and trustworthy people are allowed to move racers to expert when it is plainly obvious that they should be moved to expert, everyone benefits, and the spirit of true competition lives on.

Of course the real winners here are the true amatuers, and the newcomers to the sport.  They are given an environment for learning without the fear that comes with an overqualified "amatuer" lapping them at expert-pack speed.

What is safer, a blazing fast amatuer lapping a true amatuer with high closing speed, or that same fast amatuer being on the track with experts who are moderately faster than him/her?

And again, I come back to the intention of racing.  It is about competition.  Sandbagging is bad for all sports and it trivializes what we are all here for.

Go back and read one of the many "why do you race" threads on this forum.  Everyone talks about the thrill of competition, bettering themselves, tight racing with fellow competitors and racing "the track".  I never saw one person who claimed to race so that they could impress their non-racing buddies with hollow championships won at the expense of racing school students circulating the track with T-shirts over their leathers.

[lil_thorny]

Arnie,
we're on the same page. I like your idea of practice times as a way to grid, sort of like a pseudo-qualifying deal. It should be a privelege(spl) to be
on the track. Lets face it, some people try it and don't like it , so they quit. Lets make the amateur
class less likeable to those who enjoy the race and
sweeten like candy the expert class for those who
need sugar!
I want candy!!! I want candy!!!
what i really want is to pass the teacher. Look out
Dave, here I come!!!!!
Benji. #30

[r6_philly]

Bernie puts it very well.

Then if a complex solution can't be implemented - big changes are hard to convince people with. Then the simple thing would be

1. no AM championships. Although CCS would hate this one because that will cut half of the ROC's attendence. So we would have to figure out something else for this one.

2. no AM purses. This is important, it will turn a sandbagger's budget upside down. From making it even and race for "free" to loosing a lot of money.

3. Give small purses to more expert races. ULGP, Sportbike, and one class each displacement level. Or maybe all classes have a small purse where the winner make back the entry fee and less for places behind. Or a pot based on entries.

4. Limit AM contigencies. Or distribute it further back if the intent is to encourage new comers to keep racing. Lets pay back 10 places at 1/2 the amount instead of paying only 5. New racers usually perform inconsistently, so the top 10 will change from race to race. A wider payout will benefit many more, and the smaller amount will discourage a sandbagger from stay back.

Everything seems doable expect the no AM championship. Maybe the AM championship at Daytona are limited to TRUE first year racers. So even if you have been bumped to expert, you can STILL enter the AM ROC if you CHOOSE(instead of expert races) and win a AM championship. But one one shot, once in a lifetime, to preserve the true meaning of amateur.

[Super Dave]

Has anyone ever been bumped up mid-season by the race director ??  Then what would be the requirements for this ??  JJ and Benji definitly are some of the fastest AMs, would they qualify to get the mid-season bump ? Or are they just fast AM's ? Brian Hall came a few weeks ago on a 750 and took all the HW wins, i think he was turning mid 13's.  Is that qualify for a bump to EX ?

About this being done just for fun. Well I'm racing to see what i can do.  In competition against my peers.  I do plan on having fun.  If it wasnt fun i dont think id be racing.  I dont expect to make money in this.  If i was only doing this for fun, then i would not race, id just do NESBA or STT track days.  We race cause were adrenline junkies!  And it gives me satisfaction that i beat someone, or it tells me i need to learn/practice/get better  to beat the other guys !

JJ came to my school in May of 2002.  Benji came to my school in August of 2002.  They are true amateurs.  They have just been good at listening, executing, and they have enough ability and good reaction speed that it all came pretty quick.

There have been guys that have been bumped in the middle of the year.  Chris Kinman came to my school after a 20 lay off from road racing, and we actually got him licensed as an expert first weekend out.  Just seemed like the right thing to do for him.

Threre definitely needs to be different classifications.  Something that attracts and, I think more importantly, retains racers.  I guess that's a big part of what I do...help retain riders.

[Super Dave]

;Ddude it's not a joke , but really there is not alot that can be done at this level, there is no real way, without great  disruption to the current program to get around this, all you can do is move up and on.

The foundations already exist in organizations like LRRS.  They have an amateur, junior, and expert division.  This was the traditional way that motorcycle racing was done for years and years.  MX still has A, B, and C classes for just this same reason.  

So, there is something that can be done.  But, if you don't want, or don't have, any input, that's fine.

[Super Dave]

but think about it: novice group for
newbies, amateur level for fun seekers and sandbaggers(without contingency of course) and
the expert/pro group for the serious guys looking to advance to something bigger/make some money
doing it. If CCS can run a race (Sportbike as an example) without paying purse to amateurs, then
they certainly could run an entire group or groups
of racers without purses/contingency/championships.
Think about it again, take the contingency away
from the amatuers and some may loose interest, but
at the same time, it may increase the desire of most to want to move up to where the real money is.
And move quickly for sure. I myself want a piece
of the manufacturers contingency, and I can't have
that without being an expert. Something other than
fun fuels the fire. Desire to win and be succesful as
well as monetary compensation. And those yellow plates are just ugly!
Benji.#30

I think you're at the basis for it all, Benji.  I don't think that taking away contingency is the right thing to do, but probably taking away cash purses would be more in line.  It would bring back some of the desire to be an "expert" or what ever it would be called, while still maintaining fun factor.

[Super Dave]

First, there must be incentives.

Three classifications.

First one is just for learning, period.  Kind of like PeeWee football where, officially, no one keeps track of the score.  No contingency, purse, limited classes.  You can get your feet wet.  Require four weekends of this for anyone that is starting out, but a maximum of one 12 month period.

Next, a Junior class.  Contingency is fine.  I think championships are good in this class because it rewards consistency and following a series.  For those that have never followed a whole series, it isn't as easy as it looks.  Lots of things that happen and that you learn over the course of the season.

Next, and expert/pro class.  Higher entry fees, purse pay outs, contingencies, limited number of classes to give it more of a premiere status.  Championship bonuses for those that show up the next season..."to show" money, so to speak.  Currently the reward for being a top ten plate holder is...a plate...big deal.  That system is so bad, it's a joke.  CCS thinks it makes money, I'd like to see where the accounting shows that.  Doesn't make any sense.

Gridding by times would be hard.  Gridding by points, it might be do-able with CCS new computer.

How to bump up riders?  I stated how to get bumped to the second class.  To the top level, I suppose that could be a decision that could be made by the individual.  If you're fast enough to win races in the #2 class, you would probably get some $ in the upper class.  I would think that it would just work itself out.

Back in the late '80's, all expert classes had a payout for experts.

[smoke]

I have heard  lot of the ams this past weekend say they were going to stay back. ( I ckecked their times and they were all in the 1:25-1:28 range.  One guy was going 22s)

there should be a new system. but what it should be i don't know.

[tzracer]

A few questions to stir the pot.

Would adding a Jounior classification keep the speed of the bikes closer (that is what we are after in this discussion)? Some racers could be in the beginner class their entire career.

Do we run all 3 classifications seperate (no combined races, LRRS runs Jr/Ex combined)?

Do all three classifications run the same classes? If not who would decide which classes at Jr and which at expert? Are most of the classes then Jr with a few amateur and expert races, especially if races are not combined?

Perhaps FormulaUSA should be expanded, allowing only Pro/Expert riders. I think part of the problem is that there is no place for faster experts to go. AMA is a pretty big jump from club racing. What if a more intermediate series is set up, but with a few more dates than most national series have, maybe east/west type series? This would leave the current CCS races to the club racers and developing racers (FUSA racers would not be eligible for CCS points, purses, or contingencies).

[r6_philly]

I have heard  lot of the ams this past weekend say they were going to stay back. ( I ckecked their times and they were all in the 1:25-1:28 range.  One guy was going 22s)

there should be a new system. but what it should be i don't know.

I know of three guys this weekend who is trying to stay back next year, 1 does 1:19-20's one does 1:22 and the other does 1:23's. So I already see the fast AM for next year, unless they get bumped by force.

The all the other guys staying back... I see the grid next year is going to filled with this years AM's (especially there are less fast guys this year in MA, and the top 3-4 are all going EX, I hope) so top 10 will have 8 guys from this year who finish around the same. I do commend my pit mate for wanting to go EX even though he is not winning this year, thats the correct attitude, move forward and not trying to stay back and get some easy money and rewards. I guess we are not that young, and to make it further in RR we have to not hang around in AM ranks.

And I made the biggest mistake in the world for wanting to stay back this year... I will be the first to admit. and I didn't even get that much faster

[Dawn]

The current system may not work for all, but it does work for some.

Paul raced the first year (absolutely sucked).  He could have been classified in the Pee/Wee program as Super_Dave recommended.

Paul's second year was better (no letter sent to CCS to remain amateur, not enough points), but he was finishing in the middle to back of the pack of amateurs.  He only made it to the top five of the amateur finishes a few times (chasing Edgar, Casper, Sorenson and K3).

Paul's third year, yes we did send a letter to CCS to remain an amateur.  This was a good thing.  It allowed him more time to refine his riding and reduce his lap times (thanks Super_Dave) so that next year, hopefully, he may be able to finish mid-pack in the expert ranks.  When Paul first started this year, the difference in lap times between the top expert in the LW class and Paul was about 10 seconds, that difference is now down to 4 seconds consistently.

Amature championships....  Paul is in line to win a few if everything goes right.  After dropping 10K this year, it would be wonderful to have something to show for it.

Expert championship...  Probably not.  The midwest is blessed with some very talented riders like Ed Key, Brian Lacy, Mark Sorenson, just to name a few.  Paul being a big boy on an SV, well, it would take a miracle.

My $0.02.

Dawn   :)