AM to EX upgrades

[ronin]

 ;Dhey dumfan, in  the beggining of the statement it says IF HE IS SLOW AND SAFE WHAT IS THE PROBLEM ! the bottom line is that it is CLUB RACING !
and being an expert has more to do with proper action on the track than it has to do with being fast! so see me at the track anytime, and please let me know how you place at the next AMA race!  MOVE ON, GET OVER IT!

[Steviebee]

well, im sure that they are going to send me my license app with ex marked.   and i would have to make a request to be am one more year.

Has anyone ever been bumped up mid-season by the race director ??  Then what would be the requirements for this ??  JJ and Benji definitly are some of the fastest AMs, would they qualify to get the mid-season bump ? Or are they just fast AM's ? Brian Hall came a few weeks ago on a 750 and took all the HW wins, i think he was turning mid 13's.  Is that qualify for a bump to EX ?

About this being done just for fun. Well I'm racing to see what i can do.  In competition against my peers.  I do plan on having fun.  If it wasnt fun i dont think id be racing.  I dont expect to make money in this.  If i was only doing this for fun, then i would not race, id just do NESBA or STT track days.  We race cause were adrenline junkies!  And it gives me satisfaction that i beat someone, or it tells me i need to learn/practice/get better  to beat the other guys !

There needs to be something there to attract the new guys.  If there wasnt a seperate AM and EX championships/races/contingencies  i honestly dont think i would of ever tried racing!  There are alot of guys that are way faster than me, will i ever get there?  Hope so! If i had to race in EX class this year, i wouldnt have had a win or any top 5's.  I proable would have a very different point of view about my plans next year.  

Well now im starting to ramble,  going to play vid games_{this is sub text} !

[r6_philly]

;Dhey dumfan, in  the beggining of the statement it says IF HE IS SLOW AND SAFE WHAT IS THE PROBLEM ! the bottom line is that it is CLUB RACING !
and being an expert has more to do with proper action on the track than it has to do with being fast! so see me at the track anytime, and please let me know how you place at the next AMA race!  MOVE ON, GET OVER IT!

ya please show us your intelligence by making fun of other people's name...

What is club racing has to do with anything here??? is it again about professional's lives means more than no-professionals? I don't get it, just because its not pro racing means we shouldn't be concerned about safety?

and being too slow poses a problem by it self. I don't care how good you think you are, avioding a guy going 30mph slower has nothing to do with how "safe" you or the other person is.

Oh and, what does HOW I PLACE IN A AMA RACE has to do with what is being talked about.

But since you lack the basic english skills to comprehend the spelling of my name, I don't expect you to understand what this thread is about...

[r6_philly]

;Dhey dumfan, in  the beggining of the statement it says IF HE IS SLOW AND SAFE WHAT IS THE PROBLEM ! the bottom line is that it is CLUB RACING !
and being an expert has more to do with proper action on the track than it has to do with being fast! so see me at the track anytime, and please let me know how you place at the next AMA race!  MOVE ON, GET OVER IT!

besides, read my FIRST post again, I see a problem in the AM level, not the EX level...

and somehow I still don't understand why how I place in a AMA race has to do with what is being discussed here...

ask me a couple years from now and I will tell you how I place... Please remind me

[ronin]

 ;DWhaa!

[r6_philly]

As for how to classify...

New riders are new riders.  You give them an opportunity, a window, to ride under that classification.  If they prove to be quite competent or a quick study (that's my end), then the race director can bump them up.  The next class is where you reside until the ride makes the choice to bump up, if the race director feels that they are competent enough, to race in the upper class.  The upper class would be the regular free for all that I love so much.  Not that the class below would be less fun, but it wouldn't be as serious.

Thoughts?

I think that is what I had in mind too. A few "true" provisional classes to gain experience for new comers, then fun classes and serious classes. The beginner ones can be seperated by displacement/bike type, and the others can be as they are, maybe cut down a few to save time, or some small classes can be run combined.

if they continue to run race schools on Sat. then they can have 3 newbie classes on sunday, and they keep running then until they get enough to move up. That way they can race the first weekend they take the school, and be out of way of the "fast AM's". because someof the new comers don't have the track experience and/or the knowledge of the track.

[r6_philly]

;DWhaa!

I guess you don't care, its all a joke to you...

whatever, you ain't worth your own time

[ronin]

 ;Ddude it's not a joke , but really there is not alot that can be done at this level, there is no real way, without great  disruption to the current program to get around this, all you can do is move up and on.

[r6_philly]

;Ddude it's not a joke , but really there is not alot that can be done at this level, there is no real way, without great  disruption to the current program to get around this, all you can do is move up and on.

man... my intention is not to save the current program from disruption, but to change it. I see things in the current programs that I don't like, so I ask to see if things could be changed for the better.

I don't mean stop right now and go with new unproven things, but if a new idea can be developed and make sense, we can start it next season or whatever. I just see a lot of concers, as more new comers show and the fast AM's are getting faster. And it is also the crazy season where some AM's are already sandbagging for stay AM next year, and the talk is starting. It is talked about every year, and it would nice to have a new system, or modify the current one so it doesn't happen. Right now, the system does not really encourage the fast AMs to move up, and thats where the potential problems, complains, safety issues, unfair issues come in.

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

     On one of the previous threads some months ago on this very subject, I had suggested a performance based system of advancement based on lap times compared to the fastest racer in a certain class (comparing AM times to EX times in the same class). When comparing the lap times you would do a percentage relationship to the fastest racer generating a true performance index, not basing it on finishing position which can be very flawed in judging a riders ability.

     A few potential problems I see would be the situations where a racer doesn't do well in a certain weather condition, a racer is riding injured, or there is mechanical troubles with their bike, etc. In each of these situations the racer would not be riding at their true ability level, so would that mean they have to run in the next lower level? What would happen to the points they earn in that lower level as compared to the ones they earned in the upper level? How abruptly would a racer be bumped up or down based on performance? (instantly, the next event, after multiple events of slower times, or?). Who would be burdened with judging everyones performance on an individual basis at every event? Would actual race times be the determining factor, or practice times? (remembering that there are usually different track conditions between those times). What about the racers who feel they couldn't run with the fastest riders, so they sandbag in the middle catagory and win all the time by staying just shy of the time requiring them to go to the top level?

     Another situation is if you had to qualify for the upper group by being a certain percentage of the fastest racers time and you did so, but then were running slower than that during the actual race, would you then be bumped down, and how soon? At 105% times there wouldn't be any lapping of backmarkers in sprint races (Even at 110%, lapping anyone would be almost non existent in a sprint race - except for those with problems, ran off the track, etc.), isn't passing the backmarkers during a heated battle part of the challenge too?

     Racing for a win and competing for a championship are often times very different types of strategy. Look at NASCRAP, the racer that wins races often times is not the one that wins the championship, in fact the championship can often times be won by never winning a race - just being consistent. Similar is CCS class championships, for me to be leading class chamionships while consistently finishing at the back in EX races is proof of that (though I think I don't deserve them based on my lack-luster racing effort this year, yet there I am in the points  :-/).

     Though some type of probational classes sounds like a good idea, would everyone be willingly to stay later in the day or possibly cut some classes out of the schedule to allow for them? Maybe some type of certification program thru someone like Super Dave showing that you were ready to compete at Amatuer level is the way to go (based on experienced racers judging if their ready for competition)? Possibly then keep the AM / EX classifications the same but use the previously mentioned performance % for moving from AM to EX instead of points. The problem with this will be people like myself who have chosen to race at a much more relaxed pace (though capable of going faster), but still have a number of years as an EX and understand how to race slower and try not to be a hazard at the same time. On that note I do have to admit that some events are better than others at showing the blue flag warning at least of the leader approaching you from behind so you can ride overly predictable lines.

     Just wanted to throw these ideas and questions out there for thought.  :)

[ecumike]

I don't think lap times would work... you have different classes and different tracks, and times vary differently...
My times at VIR can (and have) win me a race, but put me in 9th (mid-pack) in another.

At some tracks the difference between the fastest racer and me is less than at other tracks... so then what would happen... would I be an expert at one track and 2nd level expert/amateur at another?

Or even expert in 1 race, and 2nd level expert in a different race, on the same weekend?

I think it's tough to do, but points is really the only way to do it.  Even performance index aint' that great.. b/c isn't it partly calculated based on grid position... yea, my PI sux b/c I'm usually gridded 1,2 or 3rd, but not always come in 1,2,3 place, so my PI goes down all the time. If it's based on PI, then sh1t,.. I'd probably be AM next year again.. and I definitely don't think I should be AM next year


But I agree on another tier.. but then what would that do to the races.. we surely couldn't double or 1.5x the # of races we have now.. Sh1t, sometimes we can't even get in all the the races as 7-laps now, as is.

[lil_thorny]

Dafan,
you are wasting your time with ronin.

i think that a laptime based system would be ineffective due to sandbagging. whiners wouldn't need to protest, just go fast enough to stay an AM.
i think that Super Dave's idea would be more suitable. And i'm not being bias here (Dave being my
pimp and all) but think about it: novice group for
newbies, amateur level for fun seekers and sandbaggers(without contingency of course) and
the expert/pro group for the serious guys looking to advance to something bigger/make some money
doing it. If CCS can run a race (Sportbike as an example) without paying purse to amateurs, then
they certainly could run an entire group or groups
of racers without purses/contingency/championships.
Think about it again, take the contingency away
from the amatuers and some may loose interest, but
at the same time, it may increase the desire of most to want to move up to where the real money is.
And move quickly for sure. I myself want a piece
of the manufacturers contingency, and I can't have
that without being an expert. Something other than
fun fuels the fire. Desire to win and be succesful as
well as monetary compensation. And those yellow plates are just ugly!
Benji.#30