AM to EX upgrades

Started by r6_philly, September 08, 2003, 09:43:23 AM

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xseal

I raced my first weekend at Summit this past Sat. I'm going to race at VIR later this month, and I may have 500 points when its done. Will I be an expert -- no way, I'm just starting to learn. Will I move up, as soon as I can run times in the middle of the expert pack. For me, racing is about safely dicing it up, I'd rather do that in the middle of the expert pack, b/c those guys are safer/more experienced, than w/ the less experience amateurs ... like me.
  

lfg929

About the only way I know to really split people between EX and AM is to somehow do it by lap times, although it would be pretty difficult for CCS to manage that. I guess I am in the small group of people here who is going to be an AM only as long as the organization forces me to. If I could find a way to bump to EX today I would probably do it.

It does suck as well to be an AM and find out all of the people that finished ahead of you in a race either used to be EX or have been racing AM for 4 or more years.

xseal

Well, CCS has those transponders. Why not download lap times into a computer, then spit out of the amateur class all racers whose average times for their 3 races are higher than the middle finisher in the equivalent expert race?  Or, something like 120% of the winning expert time .... You get the picture. In the age of computers, this can't be hard, and it would facilitate bumping people up throughout the year.  You could even send people back if they end up sucking.

KBOlsen

There's got to be some sort of mathematical formula that will evaluate the number of races entered and the performance index, that can be used as the "threshold" between EX and AM.  The fast and successful SHOULD move up.
CCS AM 815... or was that 158?

Steviebee

did i tell you that i finished 6th three times at blackhawk a few weeks ago.   (next time there's a Wegman weekend dont let me drink so much !!)

I've been debating this since my 3rd race weekend.

Im fast enough that i wont be the last place expert, in the combined ex/am races i do pass several EX's  (at least the ones i dont run in to ! )

But im really thinking of doing thw whole season next year AS AN AM  TO WIN CHAMPIONSHIPS !!!  And that's the reason for staying AM!!

If I go EX i proable wont go to all the rounds, just ones that are closest to home !!  Yes i will get faster next year, weather i race against AM's or EX's (I set goals to get to certain lap times).  Half of the races are combined EX/AM  so i am racing with EX guys.

But, being in the cannonball pack going into T1 5 wide isnt what im looking forward to. (so far ive made it though all the starts ive had this year)  I also stay out of the middle weight classes and only run the heavy weight classes, which isnt as bad, 30 bikes instead of 40 bikes.

But also, the only thing ive got moded on my bike is the suspension.  No PC, decked block, degreed cams or any HP mods (got a pipe only cause it came with the bike)  and i dont run race gas !  You can get away with this and still run top 5 as an AM,  not in the EX class!

Burt Munro

Going to 3 classes could ease the transition between Am and EX.....

Expert -  A person with a high degree of skill in or knowledge of a certain subject.
                       The highest grade that can be achieved in marksmanship.
                       A person who has achieved this grade.
 
Amateur -   A person who engages in an art, science, study, or athletic activity as a pastime rather than as a profession.
                          An athlete who has never accepted money, or who accepts money under restrictions specified by a regulatory body, for participating in a competition.
                          One lacking the skill of a professional, as in an art.

Novice - A person new to a field or activity; a beginner.

As was pointed out, the use of the transponders could help with setting time standards for the 3 classes based on time percentages....

To qualify as an Expert you might need to average no less that 5% slower lap times than the fastest rider in a class.

To qualify as an Amateur you would need to average between 5.1% and 10% slower laps times than the fastest rider in a class.  

This would mean that at a track like Blackhawk for example, the fast Experts on a 600 are turning around a 1:11 and the revised criteria for an Amateur would require that they turn between a 1:14.5 and a 1:18.  By this it's obvious that you would have some slow Experts moving back to the revised Amateur level and some of the faster current Amateurs moving into Expert.  

All racers would start out as a Novice and then remain there until they were able to maintain an average lap time that would bump them into a higher level.

You could try to set it up where you could make level changes during the season but I'm afraid it would become an administrative nightmare.   Might be better to only make the transitions between seasons.  

Since the grids for the current Am races seem to consistantly be the largest, you could probably maintain close to the same number of events in a day by running the new Am level with the Ex races as 2 wave starts (taking into account that new Am level would only consist of  more accomplished riders.)  Using the above lap time examples you would probably not see the Experts catch the Amateur back markers in an 8 lap race even with a 2 wave start.

I think it is definitly do-able to set up time standards from each track that would give you an overall database from which to set reasonable parameters for the different competition levels.

This really is no different than what I have been involved in for the last 6 years in setting standards each season that determine how fast high school swimmers need to be to qualify for the State swim meet in Missouri.  We set a qualifying time for each event that is intended to give us approximately 24 swimmers qualify for the State meet for each event.
With this we look at averaged results over the past 8 years so that we can see overall trends in times - not just fluke years where you have a lot really skilled kids.
  
Rick
Founding member of the 10,000+ smite club.  Ask me how you can join!

ronin

 8)all this talk of fast ex slow ex is kinda silly, if a guy is an expert and he is slow,but safe who cares as long as he is not a problem, if he pays his fees and stays in the back of the pack thats his deal. anyone whether ex or am who is dangerous should be addressed. this iis club racing which means anyone who pays gets to play, if one chooses not to deal with this they might want to condsider racing AMA, WSBK, GP where one must qualify thus earning the right to whine, however there are racers there who are also in the back and getting lapped. does it ever really end? why would it bother me if a guy is slow , just pass him, end of story,move on to the front all this complaining this is a hobby no one is earning a liviing from racing ccs on the weekends, just be glad you have the cash to blow on this, move on.]

xlr8tn

#31
Now that we have transponders, if we actually had to qualify and be within 110% of the pole sitter (like formula 1), then we would certainly know that everyone that made it to the grid deserved to be there.  If you didn't make it, back to practice and track days.  For safety, this would be the best.  For profit, definitely not, and that's how ccs looks at it.

-brent

ronin

 ;Dsounds like pro racing to me.

r6_philly

Quote8)all this talk of fast ex slow ex is kinda silly, if a guy is an expert and he is slow,but safe who cares as long as he is not a problem, if he pays his fees and stays in the back of the pack thats his deal. anyone whether ex or am who is dangerous should be addressed. this iis club racing which means anyone who pays gets to play, if one chooses not to deal with this they might want to condsider racing AMA, WSBK, GP where one must qualify thus earning the right to whine, however there are racers there who are also in the back and getting lapped. does it ever really end? why would it bother me if a guy is slow , just pass him, end of story,move on to the front all this complaining this is a hobby no one is earning a liviing from racing ccs on the weekends, just be glad you have the cash to blow on this, move on.]


why don't we stop having racing schools, pull out all the corner workers and just let the boys play?

It's about improving systems to make it safer and more enjoyable (in many different ways) for the participants who come and spend money.

If I want to just go ride my bike have fun, not caring if there is a fair and safe system and structure, I would go back to doing I-95 nights with my squid friends.

That way it doesnt really cost me anything

What kind of attitude is "this is only a hobby" so shut up and just keep on??? Because we are not pro's means we can't be taken seriously?

I am paying $$$ a year to race at a club race, so I better be taken seriously!!!

If a guy is slow, pass him? do you race or just pretend to??? how many fast AM's have not lapped the slowest AM for more than twice in a sprint race and come really close to (or have) gotten together with the guy?

Geeze make a observation and express concern for racers' safety and you call it complaining and nonsense, I really want to see you at/on the track!

Whats next, if I were to donate a section of airfence, you going to tell me "just go slower cuz its just a hobby" right??????????????????????????

r6_philly

Quote;Dsounds like pro racing to me.

AND? ? ?

Super Dave

Quotehey,  what about the guy that was expert last year .  That is an AM this year and running every race/weekend he can to win all the championships ??

Just wanted to throw some Powermist into the mixture !!

LOL!

Yeah, I don't get this one at all.  He's going to potentially win the Blackhawk championship and save himself $5000 to $9000 next year.  That isn't right.  He's turning times that are good.  They were good last year, but he had a confidence problem.

Steve, they may not even "let" you remain amateur.  There have been guys that were slower that got bumped to expert, and even I agreed that they needed more time.  Didn't seem to matter.

Now, one can still run fast in the expert classes with a production based bike.  JJ Zehr is a good example.  Stock pipe, gas, suspension.  And he's right there.  Experience in his set up will make him a good expert next year.

As for how to classify...

New riders are new riders.  You give them an opportunity, a window, to ride under that classification.  If they prove to be quite competent or a quick study (that's my end), then the race director can bump them up.  The next class is where you reside until the ride makes the choice to bump up, if the race director feels that they are competent enough, to race in the upper class.  The upper class would be the regular free for all that I love so much.  Not that the class below would be less fun, but it wouldn't be as serious.

Thoughts?
Super Dave