I just hate Harley people.

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

I had to go to Milwaukee today.  Lucky me, it was the hundredth homecoming hogfest or some such B.S.  50,000 motorcycles, and four mufflers.  By the time I crossed from Illinois into Wisconson, I was already deaf.
It amazes me that these guys will ride 6 wide in three lanes and totally obstruct traffic flow.  I started wishing for a James Bond car with machine guns in the grill.  Then there's the fact that these people just can't ride!  If you can't cut a smooth arc around a freeway corner at 60 mph, get another hobby!
Motorclothes.  I don't get it.  100,000 people wearing the same costume, and no two look alike.  As my wife pointed out, these are the people who would scorn someone dressed in Boss or Versacci, but they spend the same bread to look like nonconformists.  How nonconformist is it when 100,000 people all show up on the same make of motorcycle, all wearing vests, doo-rags and jeans?
Needless to say, I observed two bad wrecks in the few hours I was in town.  It's amazing how much damage a 1000 lb pig, er... hog will do when it broadsides a car at 60 mph.  I saw God knows how many cases of public drunkenness and D.U.I. while I was there, and it seemed that the boys were keeping the ambulance drivers pretty busy.
These are just my observations as someone who spent half a day running errands in Miluakee during this event.  I can't imagine how much worse it would be to actually participate in such an event.  From Toys for Tots in Chicago to Fall Bike Week in Daytona to this Hogcomingfest thing today, all I see each time the faithful gather is drunknness, a lack of basic skills, inconsideration for the rest of the world, nonconformist conformity, and several fatalities.  These are the same people who call us "Suicicycle Jockies."
We have many Harley people here in my town, and I know lots of them.  Whenever I run into one of them, I always have to hear about the latest riders to be seriously injured or killed.  The story always starts out the same.  "JJ and Linda-Sue went down last week."  There follows a short, respectful silence while everyone looks at their feet.  The story continues.  "They were on their way home from the bar..."  Of course it does absolutely no good to point out to them that I've "Gone Down"  at least a dozen times at speeds up to 120 mph and survived them all quite nicely.  It also does no good to mention that portly motorcycles, piss-poor brakes, lazy steering geometry, non-existant cornering clearance, tons of exposed flesh, a helmetless head and a few pitchers of beer make for a deadly combination.  Yes, I really must be a suicidal jackass to race one o dem murdersickle crotch-rockets.
Or am I being too hard on them? ;)

[Dawn]

No...  you're not being to hard on them.  I have had people look down at me because a middle class, middle aged, white woman should be acting my age and riding a cruiser.  NOT a crotch rocket.   ::)

Gimme a break.

I don't care what bike you ride, Harley or sport bike.  But if you don't care enough about yourself to wear the proper protective gear and learn to ride to the best of your ability.....  Well, you just lost a lot of respect from me.

Dawn   :-/

BTW - Milwaukee....  Today....  What are you nuts?

[Woofentino Pugrossi]

I'm planning on getting a HD next spring. Then again, I still will ride in full ballistic gear, full face helmet and racing gloves. I should stand out liek a sore thumb. Hell the HD guys I met up in Madison were some of the nicest peopel I've seen on bikes in a long time. Granted you have the brain dead fools on HD that bar hop on a motorcycle, then again they are mostly the same group that does the same thing on snowmobiles also.

[Xian_13]

Ohh I could go off on so many differant tangents about this...

While the rally in Miw-town is about a "bike" its the "poeple" that affect us all.
I say this because I can't get insurance on the "style" of bike I preffer to ride. Yet this artical points out where the problems really lay!

http://www.jsonline.com/news/state/jul03/154864.asp

High-lights for those who don't wish to read the whole artical...

"Todd A. Miller hit a utility pole" "He was riding his motorcycle at a high speed without a helmet, and his blood alcohol was twice the level considered evidence of intoxication"

"In 1997, the average victim of a motorcycle crash was 35.6 years old. By 2002, that figure had jumped to 42.5. In 1997, about one in four of those killed in motorcycle crashes was age 45 and over; last year, more than half of the victims were in that age group. A similar trend has been noticed nationally"
Its not the kids out there on the sports bikes... K3 you are in this demographic BTW

"Drinking and riding remains a problem. Piper says drunken driving causes almost half of the motorcycle accidents in the United States. In Wisconsin, though, the Journal Sentinel's analysis showed that of the dead drivers and passengers tested, 43% had alcohol in their blood in 2002, down from 63% in 1997. "

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

a middle class, middle aged, white woman

I think you're high class!  But don't tell Paul I said so... he's probably still mad about that other thing. ;D

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

K3 you are in this demographic BTW [/b]

True, but I don't fit the bill.  Most of these yahoos are beginners who got swept up in the whole Harley thing.  I've been riding my whole life.  Also, as a street rider I graduated myself up the displacement scale over the span of a decade.  I've done the same thing in racing.  Perhaps most important is that I realized that it was time to get off the street when my riding skill and level of agression reached dangerous levels.  This is the point of my original rant.  These losers have the nerve to look down on us!
 Now that being a bad-boy biker has become the dream of every middle aged boomer with disposable income, for sure the age factors in accident rates are going to go up.

[Photo_Chick]

It's not just Harleys.  It's any type of motorcycles.  It's any time you have a bunch of people gather for a bike fest of any kind.  They get drunk, they have to show off, they get stupid, they die....no second chances...

[Baltobuell]

 They are just a bunch of normal people who are looking to have a little fun and a feeling of belonging. The sad part is that it displays how many folks really don't know how to have fun without alcohol.
  1 in 4 over 45 means 3 out of 4 were under. That's pretty sad too. Can you imagine 100,000 non racer youngsters with sportbikes meeting somewhere? As annoying as the Harley dudes can be, people are just people.

[EX#996]

Very true Doug...

Dawn

[KBOlsen]

This Harley rider spent the 100th at Blackhawk with NESBA.  I left the 'bagger at home, in the garage.

[OmniGLH]

I'll have to agree with some of the sentiments here. My dad has been a Harley fan his whole life.  Most of his friends have Harleys, and he himself has a '96 Softail.  He keeps it in my garage, so every now and again, when my wrists and ankles don't feel up to riding the Gixxer to work, I'll ride the HD.  Not too difficult to find myself riding with a couple guys as I head in to the office - and let me tell you, for as many bad sportbike riders I've seen, there are at LEAST as many REALLY BAD cruiser riders.  Being 40+ does NOT automatically make a person a better or safer rider.

I cannot begin to tell you how often my dad complains about most of his riding buddies.... a day of riding mostly seems to consist of going from bar to bar.  Even a day-long trip out west, it HAS to wind up, or stop off at, some bar.  Since my dad doesn't drink, he's really been let-down with the riding scene ever since he picked up his bike brand new in '96.  His bike has all of 9,000 miles on it - and at least 2,000 of them are mine.

I'm proud to say he picked up his first sportbike a few weeks ago - a '97 Blackbird.  Had some mechanical things that required our attention before he could ride it... he took it on it's first ride 2 days ago.  Since then he has not stopped raving about how great the brakes are, how smoothly it rode, how effortless the handling is.  "Wow all I do is turn my head and BAM I'm already through the corner!  This is GREAT!"  All I need to do now is find him a sport-touring oriented group - who will actually spend weekends RIDING instead of drinking - and he's all set  :)  I'm not holding my breath to see him out on the track anytime soon ;)

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

Check out HSTA.  I believe that's Honda sport touring association.  I did some rides with them out of Madison that were awesome.  I rode a Kawasaki then, but they didn't seem to care.  Imagine that!

[the_weggie_man]

I especially like the H-D guy who killed his own 10 yr old son by running into the back of a car stopped at a red light.

The boy flew off the bike and his helmet came off. Any bets the helmet was an adult size and probably not buckled besides?

The stupidity of the average H-D rider staggers me.

[Woofentino Pugrossi]

The stupidity of the average H-D rider staggers me.

Well they are still smarter than the average sportbikers here in town.;D


Hell the stupidity of the AVERAGE person on the roadways is staggering. Since I get the "pleasure" of driving most the day in MAdison, I've seen people literally come to a stop on the beltline (6lane divided highway with a concrete barrier bewtween east and westbound lanes) in the westbound lanes (all 3 lanes at the same time no less) for a disabled car being loaded up on a flatbed in the eastbund lanes. Not an accident, just a car that broke down. Peole reading the newspaper while driving. Seen a guy using his laptop doing 70 in a 55. Driving on teh shoulder to get around people. Cutting across 3 lanes to the offramp. People are just plain stupid now.

[Bernie]

I laugh every time I pass by a Hooters and see a bunch of bikes (of any brand) sitting out front.  What's the point?  I've also never understood why some folks won't go riding unless there are bunches of people riding.  Any more than 3 gets crowded.

[tshort]

Hey, all a y'all - LIGHTEN UP!.  Geez.  ::) Any sufficiently large group of people who share a common interest is going to run the gamut - you're gonna have experts and novices; you're gonna have sensible types and wingnuts;  you're gonna have oldies and youngies.  And because of that diversity, you're going to have an unlimited ability to lavish praise - or scorn - on the group.  I mean, if you want to take potshots at racers, there are plenty of soft targets.  Or sport bike riders.  Or bicyclists. Or hunters.  Or any other categry you like.

It's not that there aren't examples - lots of them - of what you all are ragging about - there are.  But like the t-shirts say, "If I have to explain..."  

I'm a Harley rider, sport bike rider, and racer.  I dig them all, but I don't run around with fur on my tank, or ride with flip flops - but I see people who do.

Self-righteous types are usually insecure about something.  What's *your* deal? :P

[Dawn]

Self-righteous types are usually insecure about something.  What's *your* deal? :P

Not so much self-righteous...  Just disappointed and angered at the carelessness that injures others.

Dawn   ;)

[Tom Fredricks]

Not so much self-righteous...  Just disappointed and angered at the carelessness that injures others.  

  My reply to this statement. I live here in milwaukee. I ride an american made bike (Buell). I have friends that ride jap bikes and friends that ride Harleys. When i ride with with my Harley buddies we usally go for a ride and and hop from bar to bar doing the same thing as with my jap bike buddies. I myself do not slam drinks and ride as the same goes for harley buddies. My jap bike buddies on the other hand along with some of there other followers belive that going from bar to bar, drinking as fast as you can, doing as many shots as you can and then go and do wheelies on the freeway or wereever you can is the cool thing to do(i no longer ride with crowd). This morning on the way into work i saw something funny, A group of troulbe making drunking disregaurd for anything but themselves harley riders were on there way back to texas wereing their helmuts and riding side by side down a single lane when along came a responsible jap bike rider standing up on 1 foot peg doing a wheely with no helmut. This is the type of rider i want in my hometown riding next to me with my kids in the car......Dont you?

[Dawn]

Not so much self-righteous...  Just disappointed and angered at the carelessness that injures others.

Dawn   ;)

This statement goes for all motorcyclist, no matter what bike you ride.  Because to the non-motorcyclist crowd, we are all the same.

Dawn   :-/

[Chef]

Hey, all a y'all - LIGHTEN UP!.  Geez.  ::) Any sufficiently large group of people who share a common interest is going to run the gamut - you're gonna have experts and novices; you're gonna have sensible types and wingnuts;  you're gonna have oldies and youngies.  And because of that diversity, you're going to have an unlimited ability to lavish praise - or scorn - on the group.  I mean, if you want to take potshots at racers, there are plenty of soft targets.  Or sport bike riders.  Or bicyclists. Or hunters.  Or any other categry you like.

It's not that there aren't examples - lots of them - of what you all are ragging about - there are.  But like the t-shirts say, "If I have to explain..."  

I'm a Harley rider, sport bike rider, and racer.  I dig them all, but I don't run around with fur on my tank, or ride with flip flops - but I see people who do.

Self-righteous types are usually insecure about something.  What's *your* deal? :P

 Tom,
You're good......
If I were perfect, I'd have some SERIOUS ISSUES with ALOT of people.....
but knowing that I'd end up being exposed (for several imperfections) I'll just read on...

Ike

[bweber]

K3, I hate to hear your account of the 100th anniversary reunion.  I was there and it was a blast.  
I just have a couple questions for you:
1) Do you have a street bike?
2) If so, does it have the stock exhaust?
3) How many times have you had the opportunity to gather with 200,000 riders who like the same brand you ride?
4) Why do you have such animosity towards a different type of motorcycle?  Just because a typical H-D can't turn 1:16's at Blackhawk you think it is a POS?  That is a shame
People who ride hogs are still passionate about riding, just like you are.  Just because it is not the same type of riding, does not mean you should ridicule them.

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

K3, I hate to hear your account of the 100th anniversary reunion.  I was there and it was a blast.  
I just have a couple questions for you:
1) Do you have a street bike?
2) If so, does it have the stock exhaust?
3) How many times have you had the opportunity to gather with 200,000 riders who like the same brand you ride?
4) Why do you have such animosity towards a different type of motorcycle?  Just because a typical H-D can't turn 1:16's at Blackhawk you think it is a POS?  That is a shame
People who ride hogs are still passionate about riding, just like you are.  Just because it is not the same type of riding, does not mean you should ridicule them.

I'm glad you had fun.  Fun is good.  Rosno tells us that fun is why we do this racing thing.  Could it be that since you chose to be there, you overlooked the same behavior that so irked me?
1)  No street bike.  Racing eats all my money.  An EX500 ran my ZX11 out of the garage.  I started racing because I was very concerned about how fast I was riding on the street.  Once I started racing, I never looked back.
2)  Only my Wing had a stock pipe.  Yes, I made lots if noise and woke up lots of people.
3)  Never.  Have there ever been 200,000 sportbikers in the same place in America?
4)  I see no real use for a Harley.  People don't travel by conestoga wagon in the age of the automobile.  I understand that people want nostalga and are willing to pay for it, but that doesn't change the fact that a HD is woefully short of brakes and handling, therefore making it much more hazardous to operate than a well engineered motorcycle.  (Buells are cool!)  Sorry, but you asked my opinion...

Personally, I don't hate Harleys.  A 57 Chevy is cool.  But 200,000 people on 57 Chevies acting stupid, driving erratically and with no apparent skill, drinking, and generally feeling that this behavior is acceptable because they are taking part in a grand american tradition isnot cool.  Then these people look down on me for devoting my life to being a skillful rider.  At least the one-footpeg wheelie punk is displaying awesome bike control, if not good judgement.
Point taken.  I was a loud, annoying risk taker on the road.  This is why I left the road and went racing instead.  Here is one last comment that will surely prove my animosity towards the vast majority of Harley people who I have known or seen.

20K WILL BUY A LOT OF TAXI RIDES HOME FROM THE BAR, AND THE TAXI DRIVER WILL PROBABLY BE SOBER.

[tshort]

I started racing because I was very concerned about how fast I was riding on the street.

So you, too, were one of the people you are railing against until you quit street riding.  I see - so it takes one to know one.  Makes sense to me. ::)

I've found that racing has actually slowed me down a good bit on the street.  You can get away with lack of discipline on the street indefinitely (at least until your luck runs out).  On the track, lack of discipline, I've found, lands me on my butt (see my sig quote).  So in racing, I'm actually becoming a more disciplined rider - and that filters through to my street behavior (driving a car, too).

4)  I see no real use for a Harley.  People don't travel by conestoga wagon in the age of the automobile.  I understand that people want nostalga and are willing to pay for it, but that doesn't change the fact that a HD is woefully short of brakes and handling, therefore making it much more hazardous to operate than a well engineered motorcycle.  (Buells are cool!)  

I see.  So by the same logic we should really all be driving Porsches or Ferraris, not VW minivans and certainly not pickup trucks or SUVs - I mean, geez - those tanks handle like, well, tanks.   ::)

Regarding the whole HD thing, did I mention the t-shirt, "If I have to explain, you wouldn't understand." ?  

Personally, I don't hate Harleys.  

You mean, apart from the fact that you think they're inherently "more hazardous to operate than a well-engineered motorcycle? ???

A 57 Chevy is cool.  But 200,000 people on 57 Chevies acting stupid, driving erratically and with no apparent skill, drinking, and generally feeling that this behavior is acceptable because they are taking part in a grand american tradition isnot cool.  Then these people look down on me for devoting my life to being a skillful rider.  At least the one-footpeg wheelie punk is displaying awesome bike control, if not good judgement.  

Wow - 200,000 drunks on bikes.  And during the entire 'fest, only one person died.  I'd say that's pertty dang impressive.  Heck, the fallout from 1000 squids getting together for a long weekend would be more than that.

And it wasn't 200k drunk and unskilled, anyway.  It was at least one less, cuz I was there.  You should see me stand on my Electraglide seat with the throttle lock on doing 45 down Lake Shore Drive with my arms spread wide.  Takes *incredible* balance (not to mention a severe lack of neurons).

Point taken.  I was a loud, annoying risk taker on the road.  

And now? ;D ;D :o

.  Here is one last comment that will surely prove my animosity towards the vast majority of Harley people who I have known or seen.

No need to prove your animosity any further - it's pretty clear already.

[xseal]

How ridiculous. I have a Road King. Its a much more enjoyable bike to ride on the street than my ZX6R.  Modern sportbikes are too much for the street, they need a track and good tires to be enjoyed. Get a Harley for the street, its nice not to be in a rush.  Do some Hog riders need lessons. Sure, but so do about 50% of the guys I see at the track on their Gixxer 1000s.

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

OK Tom.  Now you've pissed me off.  A minivan has a job to do, and it's well suited for that job.  A Ferrari wouldn't work as well for the job.  Harleys are functionally compromised for the sake of style.  Ride a non-HD cruser or tourer for a minute and that should become pretty obvious.  In my opinion, that makes a Harley a poser among motorcycles.
My Harley people bias is not without history or research.  When I moved to Kankakee, the poverty I saw in parts of town shocked me.  Kids riding bicycles without rubber on the rims or playing football with a rolled up newspaper were new sights to me.  I decided to organize a Christmas toy run.
I would need some help with a project this ambitious.  First stop, the Marines.  "Call us when you get the toys."  Nice.  Next stop, GWRRA. (Wing riders)  "Call us when you get it planned."  Gee, thanks.  HOG.  "Sure, we'll ride.  Will there be beer?"  Lovely.  ABATE and the local patch flying HD clubs.  "What do you need?  How can we help?"  Wow.  These guys are pretty cool.
I got the run organized and approved.  I ran it for four years.  More than a thousand kids per Christmas in my little county were helped.  You can't ask for help without giving in return.  I became an officer in ABATE. (though I never ride without a helmet)  I went on every pig roast, poker run, benifit and charity ride that ABATE and the HD clubs held.  I was quite a sight on my crotch rocket in my 1 piece suit, but through my actions I came to be respected.  I rode at the back, sober and careful.  With my excellent brakes and handling, I was able to avoid the results of drunkin stupidity on numerous occasions.  I was the only rider at the Springfield Freedom Run (A helmet law rally of about 100,000) in full road racing gear and a helmet.  Took a lot of flack for that, but I believe that helmet laws are the only thing that will get most bikers to organize against lawmakers, so you fight where you can.
I drank a million sodas in a thousand biker bars.  I watched guys drink a bottle of Jack Daniels in 2 pulls, then go riding.  I watched them crash, get injured or die.  I went to their benifits and funerals.  I caught a HOG member pissing in my helmet on a poker run.  I beat him nearly to death.  I probably would have been killed by his friends, but my "Bros" busted out of the bar and covered my back.  Before it was over the offending parties had taken up a collection to buy me a new helmet.  After that little incident, I was given a set of colors with the word "Associate" to wear over my racing suit on runs, just so I wouldn't cop $hit any more.  That's respect.
In spite of their lifestyle of drinking, riding and dying, I grew to like and respect these people.  They were genuine.  They took the jobs that can be held by people with long hair, beards and tattoos.  They lived in houses that cost less than their bikes.  Everyone in the family was a biker.  Being a biker was what they did and who they were.  Compare that to the guy who slips out of buisness casual into his Motorclothes and becomes a weekend Sonny Barger.  Effen Posers.  These are the people who really get on my nerves.  Buy a Harley and some clothes, BOOM!  Instant credibility and personality.  I don't think so.
A for-real criminal element biker gang rolled in and decided that the two patch flying clubs in my county were history.  Some resisted.  They were beaten or killed.  The clubs ceased to exist.  After that, everyone pretty much hid out.  One of the casualties was the toy run.  Sad.
Don't say that I haven't been there and done that.  How many sportbike riders have been given colors?  "If you have to ask, you'll never understand."  Understand what?  If a lifestyler wears that shirt, he has credibility.  Anyone else is just trying to steal a true lifestyler's credibility and reputation.  In other words, a poser.  Worst of all, HD as a company has mined the pocketbook of the poser to extremes, thus enhancing the credibility of being a poser!!!  What a paradox.
What I hate about Harley people is that nine out of ten are posers, trying to be percieved as something they're not.  I would be just as offended if the sportbike squids all started putting numbers on their street bikes and trying to pretend they're us racers.  Sorry to have offended anyone on this board, because since we all race, we certianly have all proven that we are true motorcycle people and not posers.
With that apology delivered, I am going to withdraw from this thread.  It all started out as venting over the poor behavior I witnessed in Milwaukee.  what a shame that I dared to speak out.

[Tezboogie]

I got yo back K3 ;).

[pmoravek]

I think alot of you guys are missing the point...
Motorcycles are supposed to be about freedom.
Remember, a bunch of our ancestors got in boats and sailed away from guys who were trying to piss all over their party.
If you want to ride a cruiser, you should have that right.
If you want to ride a sportbike, you should have that right.
BUT WITH THOSE RIGHTS COME RESPONSIBILITY!!!

If you ride your cruiser drunk, and dangerously, you should have that right revoked.
If you ride your sportbike at 110moh through a residential district, you should have that right revoked.

You shouldn't give these people grief because of the way they dress or because of the style of bike they ride (although, I think the leather vest with the doo-rag thing has gone a bit far.)
You should embrace them as Motorcycle Brethren.
We all ride bikes because we enjoy the rush.
People in cars that kill us are our enemy.

Wave to everyone.  That's my motto.
Harley, ZX6, Buell, RC51....
It doesn't matter.

Before my racing days, I used to be a Harley Guy and this skinny, one percenter, dude I rode with had a saying...
"Wave to everyone, If you got balls enough to be on two wheels in traffic, you got my respect."

'nuff said?
 ;)

[tshort]

OK Tom.  Now you've pissed me off....

Sorry to have offended anyone on this board, because since we all race, we certianly have all proven that we are true motorcycle people and not posers.
With that apology delivered, I am going to withdraw from this thread.  It all started out as venting over the poor behavior I witnessed in Milwaukee.  what a shame that I dared to speak out.

Hey K3 - I object to blanket statements and generalizations that seek condemn an entire category of people/products based on selective examples from a few of those who happen to be in the category.  This is called prejudice.  I think speaking out is fine - so long as you are citing specific examples of stupid behavior, and not trashing everyone who happens to share some commonality with the perps.  As I said in my first post, groups are by their very nature going to have the gamut.  Characterizing everyone in a group based on the behavior of some of its members is, in my view, wrong headed.

We should continue this over a beer this weekend in the paddock (after the racing, I guess) ;).  I'll buy. :D

[Dawn]

We should continue this over a beer this weekend in the paddock (after the racing, I guess) ;).  I'll buy. :D

Thank you!

Dawn   ;)

[Super_KC124]

Did Tom say he was buying the beer this weekend? :D

[Thorny]

Hey Chris, you ever notice in the movies that when they show an alternative life style bar  (politically correct way to say 'Gay Bar') that all the patrons are dressed like harley riders??   ;D


 PJ

[lil_thorny]

hey thorny, i thought that you didn't watch movies.
So where exactly are you getting your information.
lil thorny. ;D :o

[Thorny]

Police Academy for starters!!! I don't watch your kind of movies if you know what I mean, and I think you do you do.  :P