Track set up school....

[lokisdog]

So from what your said here:

"I guees what I trying to say is that the problem isnt with the bike, its with you. You need to change your riding style to fit a properly setup bike.not try to get the bike to fill the hole sin your technique. ...."

I draw the logical conclusion that there is one proper setup for a bike and all riders need to change themselves to accomodate it? I don't think that's what you mean but is seems like it.

When you are setting up a rider's bike, do you ask the rider questions and solicit feedback? Or do you set the bike up the way you think it should be and then when they come in and say "it won't finish a corner well" do you tell them to change their riding style? I don't think so. You draw on your knowledge of suspension, the track, the rider and the tires being used and you make a change to the bike. Otherwise the need for adjustable suspension would not exist.

First let me agree that as a rider and racer I have a long way to go skills-wise. But don't assume I don't know how to setup a bike or know folks who do, or that my bike's suspension is improperly setup. The other thing is that because I have a skills gap to other racers, AMA pro's in particular, I cannot take advantage of the setup they have and in fact may not be able to ride it at all until I get to a certain skill level. I can't push Hacking's R6 to the point where it stops being stiff and starts riding like a "magic carpet". Until I get to that point (if ever) my bike will need to be setup differently that Hacking's.

I would agree that for "X" rider on "Y" type of bike running "Z" tires at "W" track there is an optimal set of valving, settings and springs. But look at all the variables there. You and Doug may set my bike up great to run Dunlop 208 GP's, what if I switch to Michelin's? Now we need to make a set of changes to accomodate tire diameter differences, sidewall flexibility differences, etc.

Are you and Doug going to be changing springs, re-valving forks and shocks for each of these riders whose suspension you're going to optimize? And if Doug weighs 150 lbs and I weigh 225 how is Doug going to know if the bike is setup right for me by riding it? He can extrapolate some basic ideas but my proper setup would be too stiff for him, for instance.

Can you and Doug improve on the average rider's suspension setup with what you're doing? Most likely yes, esp. most of the riderss you see at a trackday. Will it have value to those types of riders? Also yes.

What I'm saying here is that you and Doug can only take a bike so far on your own. In the end I the rider have to give you the tuner feedback. If you think I as a rider can't give good feedback to you because I am always the problem, not the bike's setup, then that's where we disagree.


- Eric

[Team_nuclear123]

Eric,

One last time here....

Im sure you have a great deal of riding talent, and are very competent in setting up your bikes suspension, gearing, etc, but I can assure you that unless you current setup came off a factory AMA bike, you are simply off the mark.

When I set up a bike, I first set it up to whatever is current on the AMA grid. Then I set up the rider, showing them how to position themselves, how not to sit on the seat (you wouldnt belive how many people sit down going around a corner!) Then I have them do some laps. Before I even ask them a question, I look at the tires, check the "analog data" that the suspension gives me, and I can tell what the bike is doing, and what the rider is doin wrong. I can also tell you form experience that 90% of all club racer set up issues stem from the rider, and not the bike. If you are runnign at a 80% pace, sittign on the seat, with your head on the topside of the bike, how can you tell me the bike "wont finish a corner" YOu simply arent going fast enough to make me believe that you are on the gas so hard, that you are topping out the front suspension, minimizing the contact patch, and pushing the front end under throttle pickup. Ill call bullshit. Its more that you dont have a reference point far enough ahead, are holding on to tight, and are tensing up and holding your breath that is making the bike refuse to steer. Not setup related.

A good friend fo mine has Miguels 600 from last year. When we got the bike it was as Miguel rode it at Laguna yast year, right down to the bodywork. When he first rode it, he hated, saying it was stiff, harsh, etc. Once he learned to ride it harder, he saw the need for the firmer setup, and steped up his ridoing quite a bit. Now he loves the bike, but he had to open his mind to the idea that he may have been wrong about how a bike is supposed to feel, never having ridden a proper factory 600 before. Now he wont go back.

How does DOug knwo what is the correct setup for you? You ARE kididng me right? Doug Polen, 4x WORLD champion? The best tire tester Dunlop has ever seen? DO I really need to answer this? Suffice to say that Doug has forgot more about setup, riding, and going fast that you or I will ever know. It doesnt matter what your weight is, mine is 270 in gear, and he can push on my bike and tell me if the sag is wrong.. no joke.

If Doug can improve Bussei's set up by looking over the data, im quite sure he can improve a club racers, form the begginer to the top expert, without much effort.

I guess what Im saying is that more oftne than not, the rider needs as much tuning as the bike. And THAT is what were are offering...

How much is 3 or 4 seconds a lap worth to you? Thats about what we have gotten with the fats guys, 7-8 seconds for the beginers... EASY. Hell, I think Simon was soemthign like 10 seconds a lap faster after working with Doug...

I guess you need to take a few things into account

1. Most (99.9%) of the club racers out there dont knwo HOW to ride. They ride fast, and some very well, but they dont know HOW. I mean like 30-40 laps all within a half a second or so of each other.
2. Most bikes, even most CCS experts are FAR off the setup mark. I know, every club racer know better than the AMA guys, but  the majority of the guys with access to the factory setup, run THAT setup.
3. If your bike was properly setup, it exposes your weaknesses as a rider, and in order to progress, you must fill those gaps. This is a hard thing for a lot of riders to take, and because of that, they never  make progress.
4. There are a bunch of terms used in the AMA ans WSB/MotoGP circles that I now hear in the paddock and the bench a lot, even though the rider has never really experienced it. It sounds great to say the tire was "all lit up" but unless you look like AAron Yates in the Dunlop tv spot, it WASNT.
5. Tires. Tires can be your best friend or worst enemy, so learn how to read them, they are the sotorybook of your race/practice, etc.

In any event, if you think you can benefit from the experience of a WSB, AMA and Werld Endurace Champion one on one, and woudl like yoru bike to be set up by an WSB and AMA factroy team tech, let us know. If you know better than we do, please dont pass us to close when you smoke by us.

 ;)

[Super Dave]

but I can assure you that unless you current setup came off a factory AMA bike, you are simply off the mark.

I'll agree.  There are many things that are built into the manufacturers bikes that we'll seldom know.  There is a finite window of opportunity for it all to work.

That window IS small.  Keep the effective length of the swingarm similar at all times so as not to change the set up.

I can also tell you form experience that 90% of all club racer set up issues stem from the rider, and not the bike.

Perhaps, but we're back to the problem of initial set up;  few club racers are knowledgeable about anything related to their suspension.  So, they react to the feedback that the bike is giving them, whether they know it or not.  Once you get them in the ball park, then they feel comfortable trying to do the correct things rather than trying to survive.

Most club road racers are street riders with terrible bad habbits that they have gained from street riding and track days.  Seems as though most track day control riders don't have enough experience racing to understand correct foot or body position, so they continue to push poor technique to their crowd.

How does DOug knwo what is the correct setup for you? You ARE kididng me right? Doug Polen, 4x WORLD champion? The best tire tester Dunlop has ever seen? DO I really need to answer this? Suffice to say that Doug has forgot more about setup, riding, and going fast that you or I will ever know. It doesnt matter what your weight is, mine is 270 in gear, and he can push on my bike and tell me if the sag is wrong.. no joke.

You might have to tell some.  When I was starting out (1987) I remember watching Doug.  I have videos even from then.  Doug is gifted.

I think the resistance that you're getting is related to people learning knowledge;  they want to learn the process.  Additionally, some riders do not possess the coordination or reaction time to necessarily ride a Doug Polen or Miguel set up.  They might always need something less than optimum.  They may get up to speed over a long period of time.

Example:  I ride Kim's bike and it works well for me.  Gearing is good.  However, for Kim, the gearing is no good because in the state that she is in with her comfort in riding, etc., she needs different gearing.  Alas, the different gearing works for her.

2. Most bikes, even most CCS experts are FAR off the setup mark. I know, every club racer know better than the AMA guys, but  the majority of the guys with access to the factory setup, run THAT setup.

Yes, if I had the set up info, I would incorporate it.

3. If your bike was properly setup, it exposes your weaknesses as a rider, and in order to progress, you must fill those gaps. This is a hard thing for a lot of riders to take, and because of that, they never  make progress.

Agreed.  And that's part of the resistance.  Club racers still want to experience racing.  But the club scene isn't like it was when Doug was a regular on the Suzuki Cup trail in the late 80's.  I think that when I was racing, we were all looking to try to get a ride, go faster, get Suzuki money, etc.  Now, the age demographic has gotten older and riders are really there for the fun of it.  Do I miss the old way?  Yes and no.

In any event, if you think you can benefit from the experience of a WSB, AMA and Werld Endurace Champion one on one, and woudl like yoru bike to be set up by an WSB and AMA factroy team tech, let us know. If you know better than we do, please dont pass us to close when you smoke by us.

Well, then you have to give us more info...what, where, when, how much?

Add your name to your signature, please.

[lokisdog]

Well, they say the proof is in the pudding and I'm willing to check it out if it's all you say it is. I'll be at T-Hill for the Aug race on the Friday open test day, if you're there and want to check the bike over, make the suggestions, tell me what I'm doing wrong as a rider, etc I'm open to it. I know I need improvement all over the place and you may be correct. If it works I'll throw some cash your way. If not then that'll settle the debate.

Who are you and if you're there maybe I'll find you?

- Eric
#235

[THE_D.O.C.]

this thread is spooooooop.  ;D

as spoop filled as the transponder one.  ;)

[Super Dave]

If it works I'll throw some cash your way. If not then that'll settle the debate.

Who are you and if you're there maybe I'll find you?

- Eric
#235

Not sure who you're directing this too...

Regardless, the cost of learning that kind of experience pales in comparison to what you'd probably be charged, even if it were "a lot".

[lokisdog]

I was directing it to Team_Nuclear_123, don't know who he/she is.


- Eric

[bmgracing]

Team_Nuclear_123 . . . I'm in complete agreement with everything you said.  You can throw me in the group of Club racers that don't know where to start with suspension setup.  That's why I just sent my forks and shock off to Traxxion and I'm hoping they provide setup information when they send them back.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there's anyone at CCS SW events that rebuilds suspension and gives racer support afterwards similar to what Max @ Traxxion does for WERA.

I had a friend telling me how much cheaper it would be to have the suspension rebuilt by someone local here that he knows but I'm pretty sure they have no clue as to what the AMA guys are running . . . that's why I sent it off to Max.

Anyway, I will not be in Vegas but I will be running the rest of the SW CCS region and hopefully a WSMC race or two by the end of the year.  Let me know if you'll be at one of these events or a trackday where we could work together.  You can e-mail me at matt@bmgracing.com.

PS - If the Simon you worked with is Simon with one of those overpriced Ducatis, let him know he needs to shave a few more seconds off . . . jk Simon!

[SlowDragon]

BMG man

Yes, I could do with shaving a few more seconds and few more pounds off  ;D  You're almost making me drive the 1600 mile round trip to Phoenix again to see your new GSXR beast in action.

Doug didn't look at the set-up on my bike but certainly helped my riding a great deal. I would certainly credit him as being the one that moved me from being an medium intermediate track day rider to someone having a chance in amateur racing.

I rode the 996 as it came (probably set up for a 130lb swarthy Italian, which is isn't me) until I got fast enough to notice the suspension differences, or rather lots of bumps that I had not noticed before at slower speeds.

Munroe Motors in San Francisco took the base settings from their AMA Pro Thunder 748, adjusted for my err..hum...weight difference and the bike handles like a dream.

So, to finally respond to the point of this thread - if someone that knows what they are doing can baseline the bike so that it can be fine tuned it's worth doing IMHO

See y'all in Vegas