Track set up school....

[Team_nuclear123]

Ok, I was talking to Doug Polen the other day, and we were discussing bike set up, etc...

We hatched a little idea, and wanted to see if anyone here had any interest....

Would anyone be interested in having their bike set up to current AMA supersport numbers, then fine tuned by Doug Polen.

The idea would be that you woudl be given a complete setup sheet, a lap time listing of Dougs times with that set up, and a bit of information on what you could do to get closer to Doug's times on your bike, gearing, springs, etc what if anything needed to be done.

The idea sprang from being at a track day and seeing SO many bikes that were set up TOTALLY wrong, and how much improvement could be felt by some simple changes and proper ride height, sag, preload, etc.

Anyone interested? Not for free but reasonable. At a local so cal track day.

Let me know here....

[Team_nuclear123]

Damn, no one is interested in having Doug set up your bike????

I guess everyone must be a lot faster than Doug is

[Jeff]

buying a "cookie-cutter" sheet from someone isn't going to do much.  Setups depend greatly on the rider.  

Repeated and continued interaction with a tuner is the only way to go...

When your tuner understands exactly what YOU mean when you say the bike wants to fall or wallows, etc, then real tuning can occur.

Sure, gearing and general sag comments are useful, but I don't know that I'd personally pay for them...

(hey, you asked...)

[Team_nuclear123]

Maybe I mis-stated what the idea is...

Doug will not only set it up for you, but ride it, and fine tune it..


Set up is set up. If it works, it works, the whole idea for this came about because so many people have no idea what THE set up really is. We got a new bike, I called a friend who is a crew-cheif for one of the factory teams and asked him what the number were for the bike. he gave me THE numbers. there isn't any real variation track to track, when the bike works, it works, when it dont, it dont....

Remember back to Doohan. Alex would just cruise around all practice long, then run whatever Mick was running and SUPRISE, it was right on the money...

The other aspect of it was that if you saw what Doug could do on your bike with the proper set up, you know just how fast the bike will go outright, then you can just work on your skills to get up to that speed.

IE. Laguna, Doug sat down with Ducati Austin looked at the  data, said change this, change that, do this. they made three changes, and Gio dropped 3/4 sec in tyhe next session with no more effort. Bussei was blown away at how easy it was for him to ride.

Anyways, thought I would make the offer....

[motomadness]

Where is he doing this?  Will TZ250's be included?

[prov431]

there isn't any real variation track to track,

Ok, I'm no expert, but I do have GMD Computrack do my bike set up. To say there is no real variation track to track sounds a bit off to me. Why do you suppose the factory teams test and test and test at each track? To get the right set up.
having someone else, be it a great rider or not, tune your bike and ride it is all well and good for the guy setting it up and riding it, but when the owner gets on it, the bike isn't set up for him, or his riding style. Granted sag is sag, and if someone doesn't have that right, then at least they would benifit from that, as long as it was the actual owner of the bike sitting on it while the thing was adjusted.
I'm not busting on your theory, just saying that there are already dedicated businesses out there catering to the actual rider, and not "just what works for them will work for you"
Just my .02

[lokisdog]

You're assuming I ride like Doug Polen, which I'm pretty sure I don't. By that I refer to riding style, not how fast Doug is compared to me. (I'm waaaaay slower obviously).

If Doug's riding style is like mine, AND he is used to riding a bike like mine, AND he likes he bike's handling characteristics to act like mine, then it might be of some benefit, but if not I'm not sure how much benefit it would be.

Here's an example. One of my teammates is much faster than me. He prefers his bikes setup on the softer side, lots of sag, softer compression settings a somewhat fast (IMHO) rebound and such. Another teammate who is just as fast likes a stiff suspension setup. They can't go fast on each other's bikes.

It might be a good general setup class for newbies who don't know anything about suspension, to at least get them in the ballpark, but in the end you have to find your own way down this road, in my opinion anyway.

- Eric

#235 Pac Region

[motomadness]

I attended a Visionsports Riding School and had Dave Rosno ride my bike.  He made some recommendation on setup and it truly made a difference for me.  This kind of thing may not work for everyone, but it helped me take countless second off my laptimes almost as soon as I started riding it again.

my $0.02

[KBOlsen]

Ditto what Shawn said...  Dave rode my TL and we set the bike up based on a combination of what he was experiencing and what I needed to be able to manage the bike.  As my skillls increase and my "style" develops, we will fine-tune and adjust as needed.

It is very cool that Polen is interested in working with folks and offering his expertise.

[Team_nuclear123]

Eric, you are missing the point of what I am saying.. and this is from Dougs mouth, and I have seen it work with several riders, including at least one that posts here.

You may prefer a specific setup, but if it varies a lot from optimal, you are just kidding yourself, and over riding the problems in the bike. or perhaps that you need to change you style, or make some fairly radical changes to the whole thing, but when you look at the AMA, WSB or Motogp field, you dont see one guy sitting backwards or dragging his foot like a dirt-tracker, what works, works.

Dan, I worked on the very factory teams that do all that testing for many years.. and we didnt test to find a set-up, we tested to correct problems that arrose from the rider over riding the bike to find speed. I can tell you the set up on our new ZX6RR, stright from Tommy Haydens bike, and I can also tell you that the clickers on his bike dont move more than 1 or 2  either way at any track. Wheelbase stays fixed, ride-height, sag, spring rate, preload all stay constant on a supersport bike. one or two clicks here or there, thats it.

Superbikes are another story, and they run pretty much the same setup, but always try NEW parts to make things better, but the baseline stays pretty much constant. Between Doug and myself we have worked on 14 World Championship teams and 8 AMA Superbike teams, and I will tell you this is just the way it works...

If you got on Hackings's R6, you would hate it,  it woudl feel so stiff, you could feel every bump, condition change, pavement changhe, etc. As soon as you started to push the bike becomes a magic carpet, and you just cruise along, because the bike works...

I guess We'll just be seeing you at Vegas for the races... Joey Lombardo, Tommy Hayden's crew chief will be there with us on Sunday, helping out with the bike., you can come by and ask him about set-up variation in a AMA supersport bike....

[lokisdog]

What I am hearing you say is that there is one optimal way to set a bike up and that is independent of the rider. If that's not what you're saying then please be clear. If it is then I will disagree with you.

Several top AMA riders all ride R6's for instance. Are you saying they all have identical setups, or should have identical setups?

When I look in an AMA pit I see lots of different springs, forks being revalved, changes made to accomodate various tracks, etc. Are you saying you setup a bike to run at Road America or Brainerd the same as you do to run at Pikes Peak or Sears?

Just watching Bayliss and Xaus running last year showed the variations if riding styles and techniques, I would thnk their bikes were setup significantly different from each other.

I agree having someone who has expertise in suspension setup check over a bike is a good idea, I have friends who's style is similar to mine and whose weight is similar to mine check me when I have a question. But to think that there is one ideal way to setup a bike which is good for all riders, and the rider has to conform to the bike's setup rather than the two finding a common ground doesn't make sense to me.

Or am I missing something in your last post?

- Eric

[Team_nuclear123]

Eric, I am saying that all three factory AMA Yamaha 600's have nearly the same setup. Remeber that Bucky, Hacker and Gobert have different weight, and therefore different springs, valving etc, but mostly the bike stays the same, track to track, day to day.

You may run a slightly softer setup at Road America, and a bit less highspeed compression at Brainerd and Mid O, but the majority of the factors just dont change.

Think of it this way - a production bike with production rules means that you can ONLY chage the following (Jason Pridmore and Hypercycle fans turn your heads)
Wheelbase, Rideheight, Spring rate, spring preload, spring length, valving, shock length, and on the new Kawasaki, swingarm pivot. Thats it.

So what do you change? What should you? My rider weighs about 140# wet, we run a .8kg spring front and a 101nm spring rear on a production Ohlins and reworked production valving. Our last race was at Buttonwillow, next is Vegas.

Here are my questions....
1. Should I go to a lighter spring for a bumpier track?
2. How about adding rear ride height  to get the bike to turn better at shorter tracks like Streets of willow?
3. As he gets faster, should I make the bike stiffer to suit his riding improvement?
4. what else can I change and stay legal?

Answers
1. No, once sag is set, sag is set. Remembering of course that if you need more than 10mm of prelaod to achieve the desired sag, you need to run a stiffer spring, or maybe just one stiffer.
2. Once the rear ride height is set, addign rear or lowerign frint will change to balance and greatly effect rear wheel traction, and the riders ability to finish the corner on the throttle.
3. No, the bike should be set up properly from the get go, allowing him to learn how to ride the bike(a bike, any bike) in its propper form. Why ask someoen to relearn how to ride to suit the bike?
4. Nothing, up until you get caught.

The riders only input on setup on a supersport bike is a few click in damping, assuming everything else works.

The valving, springs, etc that you see being swapped out are pretty much all works type stuff, and is 99% reserved for superbike parts. all the stuff you see on the pit wall is a "lets try this and see what it does" effort, which means they are trying to fix a problem.

Sears and Pikes get a slightly softer valving, but the change is mostly gearing related.

I guees what I trying to say is that the problem isnt with the bike, its with you. You need to change your riding style to fit a properly setup bike.not try to get the bike to fill the hole sin your technique. Thats the curse fo the clubracer. They always balme the equipment, but its the rider that needs the tuneup.

You mention Troy and Xaus, you are in a whole different league. Thats superbike and EVERYTHING can be, and is adjusted. More than you could even imagine.

Heres the gist of the whole deal. I can spend an hour setting up yoru bike, Doug can ride it and we make some changes, and you go SECONDS faster because the bike is doing the work, instead of you tryign to do the work you dont know you are doing....

Sorry for all the typo's its WAy late for me